Codependent No More - Book Study: Chap. 8 - Remove The Victim
Go ask the Multivax
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Codependent No More - Book Study: Chap. 8 - Remove The Victim
Link to Chapter 7: Don't Be Blown about By Every Wind (and previous Chapters):
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...self-free.html
Chapter 9 to go up Wendsday Evening
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...self-free.html
Codependent No More:
How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself
How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself
By Melodie Beattie
Book Study
CHAPTER 8 - Remove The Victim
CHAPTER 8 - Remove The Victim
Chapter 9 to go up Wendsday Evening
Go ask the Multivax
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Synopsis:
"We're so careful to see that no one gets hurt. No one that is, but ourselves"
- Al-Anon Member
Begins Chapter 8. Here Melodie tells us that our role as caretaker and rescuers ultimately lead to our final role. That of the victim. This is our relationship pattern with relatives, spouses, friends, etc... She explains that we not only try to meet other peoples needs, we anticipate them.
Her definition of a rescuing and caretaking is taking over someone else's responsibility. Then we get mad at them for having to do it! The other thing we do is enabling. Enabling is a destructive form of helping that help an alcoholic continue drinking or not suffer any consequences.
At the time we get into rescuing the emotions that set it off are often guilt, saintliness, anxiety, pity, and fear. We will also then feel a sense of being needed. After the rescue, we go into the next phase, persecution. We get angry and resentful for having to take over their responsibility. We feel unappreciated. We become a victim. This becomes and endless cycle.
This triangle, is known as The Karpman Drama Triangle: Rescuer = Prosecuter = Victim
Many of us are true victim of abuse, neglect abandonment etc... "We were at one time truly helpless". But, what codefendants do is stay in this role following the vent. Our painful history repeating over and over. Rescuing/caretaking/enabling is not love. It brings down our self-esteem.
Melodie has a couple good stories in this chapter. I'll leave them out for space.
I like this quote" We try to be living proof that people can out give god".
Some of us after a while resort to anger right away after a rescue leaving out all pity and guilt. We then walk around angry most of the time. We end up ignoring ourselves and our needs. We forget that we are our own most important responsibility. Many of us then become depressed because none of our needs are being met. However, we get so used to giving that we then feel uncomfortable when someone tries to give to us. Sometimes we even get hurt or feel rejected when someone refuses our strong desire to "help" them.
She explains that many of us were caretakers as children. Or taught to be caretakers from a parent. Sometimes codependancy can erupt after we have our own children and get used to taking care of them when they are young.
She says God (or your HP) wants you to first take care of yourself. "Acts of kindness are not kind unless we feel good about ourselves". She goes on to explain that this kind of caretaking is closely associated with Martyrdom. "The most exciting thing about caretaking is learning to understand what it is and when we are doing it, so we can stop doing it". We can recognize when we want to do it and say to ourselves "REFUSE TO RESCUE".
Activities Paraphrased:
1). May take some time. detail all the things you consider your responsibilities from work, kids, friends, spouse, etc.. Now list detail by detail what responsibilities belong to someone else. If any are shared, break them up into percentages for you and the other party. We may be surprised to see how much of the responsibility we have taken compared to others.
2.) Become familiar with the "Karpman Drama Triangle" described above and how you do this in your life. Try to catch ourselves rescuing and the emotions that go with it. Then, say no when you want, do things you want, refuse to guess other peoples needs, Make them ask for what they want. Ask directly for what you want. Do not take over the responsibility of others. When you stop caring for people who are used to it. They may get upset and resentful. Explain what you're doing and allow them to be responsible for their own feelings. Sometimes, they surprise us when we find they CAN ultimately take care of themselves.
"We're so careful to see that no one gets hurt. No one that is, but ourselves"
- Al-Anon Member
Begins Chapter 8. Here Melodie tells us that our role as caretaker and rescuers ultimately lead to our final role. That of the victim. This is our relationship pattern with relatives, spouses, friends, etc... She explains that we not only try to meet other peoples needs, we anticipate them.
Her definition of a rescuing and caretaking is taking over someone else's responsibility. Then we get mad at them for having to do it! The other thing we do is enabling. Enabling is a destructive form of helping that help an alcoholic continue drinking or not suffer any consequences.
At the time we get into rescuing the emotions that set it off are often guilt, saintliness, anxiety, pity, and fear. We will also then feel a sense of being needed. After the rescue, we go into the next phase, persecution. We get angry and resentful for having to take over their responsibility. We feel unappreciated. We become a victim. This becomes and endless cycle.
This triangle, is known as The Karpman Drama Triangle: Rescuer = Prosecuter = Victim
Many of us are true victim of abuse, neglect abandonment etc... "We were at one time truly helpless". But, what codefendants do is stay in this role following the vent. Our painful history repeating over and over. Rescuing/caretaking/enabling is not love. It brings down our self-esteem.
Melodie has a couple good stories in this chapter. I'll leave them out for space.
I like this quote" We try to be living proof that people can out give god".
Some of us after a while resort to anger right away after a rescue leaving out all pity and guilt. We then walk around angry most of the time. We end up ignoring ourselves and our needs. We forget that we are our own most important responsibility. Many of us then become depressed because none of our needs are being met. However, we get so used to giving that we then feel uncomfortable when someone tries to give to us. Sometimes we even get hurt or feel rejected when someone refuses our strong desire to "help" them.
She explains that many of us were caretakers as children. Or taught to be caretakers from a parent. Sometimes codependancy can erupt after we have our own children and get used to taking care of them when they are young.
She says God (or your HP) wants you to first take care of yourself. "Acts of kindness are not kind unless we feel good about ourselves". She goes on to explain that this kind of caretaking is closely associated with Martyrdom. "The most exciting thing about caretaking is learning to understand what it is and when we are doing it, so we can stop doing it". We can recognize when we want to do it and say to ourselves "REFUSE TO RESCUE".
Activities Paraphrased:
1). May take some time. detail all the things you consider your responsibilities from work, kids, friends, spouse, etc.. Now list detail by detail what responsibilities belong to someone else. If any are shared, break them up into percentages for you and the other party. We may be surprised to see how much of the responsibility we have taken compared to others.
2.) Become familiar with the "Karpman Drama Triangle" described above and how you do this in your life. Try to catch ourselves rescuing and the emotions that go with it. Then, say no when you want, do things you want, refuse to guess other peoples needs, Make them ask for what they want. Ask directly for what you want. Do not take over the responsibility of others. When you stop caring for people who are used to it. They may get upset and resentful. Explain what you're doing and allow them to be responsible for their own feelings. Sometimes, they surprise us when we find they CAN ultimately take care of themselves.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 132
1. I do it all. So, no need to itemize it. 
2. I have recently begun to examine what the feelings are just before I commit an act of codependency. I'm finding that what I confused as love, was just guilt and the need to rescue. I'm finding that what I considered being a loyal friend was the same. Also, the way I've approached my career.
I feel I need to start all over again to figure out what the feelings I have *actually* mean, and what real love actually feels like, I have no idea. It has always been about caretaking.
2. I have recently begun to examine what the feelings are just before I commit an act of codependency. I'm finding that what I confused as love, was just guilt and the need to rescue. I'm finding that what I considered being a loyal friend was the same. Also, the way I've approached my career.
I feel I need to start all over again to figure out what the feelings I have *actually* mean, and what real love actually feels like, I have no idea. It has always been about caretaking.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Reality, NJ
Posts: 853
Originally Posted by alanonicnov2008 
1. I do it all. So, no need to itemize it.
2. I have recently begun to examine what the feelings are just before I commit an act of codependency. I'm finding that what I confused as love, was just guilt and the need to rescue. I'm finding that what I considered being a loyal friend was the same. Also, the way I've approached my career.
I feel I need to start all over again to figure out what the feelings I have *actually* mean, and what real love actually feels like, I have no idea. It has always been about caretaking.
2. I have recently begun to examine what the feelings are just before I commit an act of codependency. I'm finding that what I confused as love, was just guilt and the need to rescue. I'm finding that what I considered being a loyal friend was the same. Also, the way I've approached my career.
I feel I need to start all over again to figure out what the feelings I have *actually* mean, and what real love actually feels like, I have no idea. It has always been about caretaking.
a: marriage being hard work
b: you have to sacrfice in a marriage
I dont think I had a healthy idea of what that meant. But I am getting better now at distinguishing.
Go ask the Multivax
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Itemizing. I don't know, mines out of the house. But I'll try too.
"a: marriage being hard work
b: you have to sacrfice in a marriage"
Lulu I know, right?! Me too. Also the fact that when your in a room full of people and someone says so and so's been married 20 or 30 or 40 years - Everyone stands up and applauds for a job well done. We'll GREAT! It alway's gave me the message that you tough it out no MATTER WHAT. <-- Well, that just isn't gonna do it for ME. ;-)
"a: marriage being hard work
b: you have to sacrfice in a marriage"
Lulu I know, right?! Me too. Also the fact that when your in a room full of people and someone says so and so's been married 20 or 30 or 40 years - Everyone stands up and applauds for a job well done. We'll GREAT! It alway's gave me the message that you tough it out no MATTER WHAT. <-- Well, that just isn't gonna do it for ME. ;-)
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Waterford MI
Posts: 4,202
Originally Posted by Alizerin
Rescuer = Prosecuter = Victim
This just came to my mind:
Pushed Husband into Rehab = Got pissed off when he stopped meetings, and showed it = Feeling insignificant
This just came to my mind:
Pushed Husband into Rehab = Got pissed off when he stopped meetings, and showed it = Feeling insignificant
prosecutor = gone for six weeks, comes back, two weeks later making an ass of himself and i feel like he is making an ass of me. his acting out took place on a very small stage.. people i worked with "normies" saw him do his thing.
victim = poor me, why didnt he get it? why is he shaming me and embarassing me again like this.
prosecutor again, i sent him home. yep, back to michigan with him.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Reality, NJ
Posts: 853
Originally Posted by Alizerin
Itemizing. I don't know, mines out of the house. But I'll try too.
"a: marriage being hard work
b: you have to sacrfice in a marriage"
Lulu I know, right?! Me too. Also the fact that when your in a room full of people and someone says so and so's been married 20 or 30 or 40 years - Everyone stands up and applauds for a job well done. We'll GREAT! It alway's gave me the message that you tough it out no MATTER WHAT. <-- Well, that just isn't gonna do it for ME. ;-)
"a: marriage being hard work
b: you have to sacrfice in a marriage"
Lulu I know, right?! Me too. Also the fact that when your in a room full of people and someone says so and so's been married 20 or 30 or 40 years - Everyone stands up and applauds for a job well done. We'll GREAT! It alway's gave me the message that you tough it out no MATTER WHAT. <-- Well, that just isn't gonna do it for ME. ;-)
Go ask the Multivax
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Lulu,
In the span of less than two weeks since posting in this forum (well, it was the substance abuse families one). The ladies helped me not only stop CARING if he's high - BUT I ended up getting rid of him too! Surely that's got to be a record or somthin. ;-)
Because of this place, I literally get happier, and happier.
In the span of less than two weeks since posting in this forum (well, it was the substance abuse families one). The ladies helped me not only stop CARING if he's high - BUT I ended up getting rid of him too! Surely that's got to be a record or somthin. ;-)
Because of this place, I literally get happier, and happier.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 136
This triangle, is known as The Karpman Drama Triangle: Rescuer = Prosecuter = Victim
This is me to a T.....
I don't believe I have ever had a relationship to where this was not a part of who I was or the raltionship. I look back now and even in my 10 yr marriage I did not really get anything back from him...emotionally. I was doing all the giving.
I'm hoping I can figure out how to get out of this role and learn what love is really. I just started dating and it is strange to meet men that don't need to be taken care of...I'm finding it odd and not really knowing how to handle it. But I have faith I will get there. ; )
This is me to a T.....
I don't believe I have ever had a relationship to where this was not a part of who I was or the raltionship. I look back now and even in my 10 yr marriage I did not really get anything back from him...emotionally. I was doing all the giving.
I'm hoping I can figure out how to get out of this role and learn what love is really. I just started dating and it is strange to meet men that don't need to be taken care of...I'm finding it odd and not really knowing how to handle it. But I have faith I will get there. ; )
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 626
1). May take some time. detail all the things you consider your responsibilities from work, kids, friends, spouse, etc.. Now list detail by detail what responsibilities belong to someone else. If any are shared, break them up into percentages for you and the other party. We may be surprised to see how much of the responsibility we have taken compared to others.
2.) Become familiar with the "Karpman Drama Triangle" described above and how you do this in your life. Try to catch ourselves rescuing and the emotions that go with it. Then, say no when you want, do things you want, refuse to guess other peoples needs, Make them ask for what they want. Ask directly for what you want. Do not take over the responsibility of others. When you stop caring for people who are used to it. They may get upset and resentful. Explain what you're doing and allow them to be responsible for their own feelings. Sometimes, they surprise us when we find they CAN ultimately take care of themselves.
On item 1. - I've pretty much got this figured out. There is still some residual stuff left over from being too enmeshed in my Mom's finances (she's a compulsive spender/semi-hoarder/perpetually in financial distress.
I'm very fortunate to be 49 years old. I'm single with a daughter who is 26 and married. My codie behaviors never really moved down the geneology chart - they mostly moved upward to my Mom and outward to my sister. I am SO SO SO much better at letting everyone else handle their emergencies. And a sale at Kohl's ain't an emergency, even if it means your lights get turned off!
I've run through the Drama triangle so many times, I think my head is pointed. But again, I'm learning to own my own stuff. I am responsible, no one else. If I allow/guilt/run to do something for someone that isn't fun or free and then I resent it - it's my own fault for doing it in the first place.
I had to really battle my tendency to "rescue" this past week, as my family of origin erupted in a free for all. My baby sister ended up getting the brunt of the deal, and all pretty undeserved. And while I wanted to ride in and rescue, I didn't. And it felt uncomfortable, as I've been encouraged to be a co-parent and responsible to her my entire life. I did nothing, and the situation resolved itself in a way that I could have never, ever created. So much better for all concerned for me to stay out of it. I'm much more peaceful because of it.
My current challenge, although I believe I'm handling it okay - is letting the XBF recovery be his. I don't ask, I don't suggest. If he's sober, I'll see him for a dinner, movie or walk in the park. If I ever see that he's not, well, then I will just leave. I'm not his sponsor. Heck, I'm not even his gf anymore. I'm just someone who cares enough for him to let him journey to recovery on his own.
2.) Become familiar with the "Karpman Drama Triangle" described above and how you do this in your life. Try to catch ourselves rescuing and the emotions that go with it. Then, say no when you want, do things you want, refuse to guess other peoples needs, Make them ask for what they want. Ask directly for what you want. Do not take over the responsibility of others. When you stop caring for people who are used to it. They may get upset and resentful. Explain what you're doing and allow them to be responsible for their own feelings. Sometimes, they surprise us when we find they CAN ultimately take care of themselves.
On item 1. - I've pretty much got this figured out. There is still some residual stuff left over from being too enmeshed in my Mom's finances (she's a compulsive spender/semi-hoarder/perpetually in financial distress.
I'm very fortunate to be 49 years old. I'm single with a daughter who is 26 and married. My codie behaviors never really moved down the geneology chart - they mostly moved upward to my Mom and outward to my sister. I am SO SO SO much better at letting everyone else handle their emergencies. And a sale at Kohl's ain't an emergency, even if it means your lights get turned off!
I've run through the Drama triangle so many times, I think my head is pointed. But again, I'm learning to own my own stuff. I am responsible, no one else. If I allow/guilt/run to do something for someone that isn't fun or free and then I resent it - it's my own fault for doing it in the first place.
I had to really battle my tendency to "rescue" this past week, as my family of origin erupted in a free for all. My baby sister ended up getting the brunt of the deal, and all pretty undeserved. And while I wanted to ride in and rescue, I didn't. And it felt uncomfortable, as I've been encouraged to be a co-parent and responsible to her my entire life. I did nothing, and the situation resolved itself in a way that I could have never, ever created. So much better for all concerned for me to stay out of it. I'm much more peaceful because of it.
My current challenge, although I believe I'm handling it okay - is letting the XBF recovery be his. I don't ask, I don't suggest. If he's sober, I'll see him for a dinner, movie or walk in the park. If I ever see that he's not, well, then I will just leave. I'm not his sponsor. Heck, I'm not even his gf anymore. I'm just someone who cares enough for him to let him journey to recovery on his own.
Go ask the Multivax
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
"I've run through the Drama triangle so many times, I think my head is pointed."
Now that's a classic line!
"My current challenge, although I believe I'm handling it okay - is letting the XBF recovery be his. I don't ask, I don't suggest. If he's sober, I'll see him for a dinner, movie or walk in the park. If I ever see that he's not, well, then I will just leave. I'm not his sponsor. Heck, I'm not even his gf anymore. I'm just someone who cares enough for him to let him journey to recovery on his own."
You sound very wise to me.
Now that's a classic line!
"My current challenge, although I believe I'm handling it okay - is letting the XBF recovery be his. I don't ask, I don't suggest. If he's sober, I'll see him for a dinner, movie or walk in the park. If I ever see that he's not, well, then I will just leave. I'm not his sponsor. Heck, I'm not even his gf anymore. I'm just someone who cares enough for him to let him journey to recovery on his own."
You sound very wise to me.
Curled up in a good book...
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,542
Yeah, I'm not good with 'Activities', can you tell? So far I've done half of one in this book study. Meh, just not my thing, I'm going wherever I go - sorry guys!
Reading this chapter again made me realise just how far I've come. I no longer resent the hell out of anyone for not recognising my graciousness!!!
My codieism is still here though, in its own twisted way. Whenever someone tries to help me or is even nice to me, I wonder - are they a codie too? Should I accept their kindness or try and stage a codie intervention?!
My self esteem is so low that I think that someone must only want to help me/be nice to me because they're ill too!! I know these thoughts are vestiges of my codieism - they are only passing thoughts that I do my best to ignore.
Can you tell I have a hard time accepting help from anyone? I identify with the caretaking role in this chapter the most. I'm a good little caretaker who feels 'guilty and uncomfortable when someone gives to us or when we do something to meet our needs'. And this bit describes my childhood conditioning perfectly:
Whoa. Typing this, I realise that I'm angry, furious even!! Where did this come from?
I have stopped caretaking, mostly. So why am I so angry?
Reading this chapter again made me realise just how far I've come. I no longer resent the hell out of anyone for not recognising my graciousness!!!
My codieism is still here though, in its own twisted way. Whenever someone tries to help me or is even nice to me, I wonder - are they a codie too? Should I accept their kindness or try and stage a codie intervention?!
My self esteem is so low that I think that someone must only want to help me/be nice to me because they're ill too!! I know these thoughts are vestiges of my codieism - they are only passing thoughts that I do my best to ignore. Can you tell I have a hard time accepting help from anyone? I identify with the caretaking role in this chapter the most. I'm a good little caretaker who feels 'guilty and uncomfortable when someone gives to us or when we do something to meet our needs'. And this bit describes my childhood conditioning perfectly:
don't be selfish, always be kind and help people, never hurt other people's feelings because we "make them feel", never say no and don't mention personal wants and needs because it's not polite.
Whoa. Typing this, I realise that I'm angry, furious even!! Where did this come from?
I have stopped caretaking, mostly. So why am I so angry?
Go ask the Multivax
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
"My codieism is still here though, in its own twisted way. Whenever someone tries to help me or is even nice to me, I wonder - are they a codie too? Should I accept their kindness or try and stage a codie intervention?!"
I'm also doing it in my own twisted way as of late. I'm recongnizing a FLURRY of fellow AA members with blantant codie issues. I have to watch myself - Unsolicited advice!
I was thinking about how the triangle should have looked instead of the other way around. So, it should have went something like this:
Rescuer = Prosecuter = Victim
Could be this:
Sympathizer = Suggester = Supporter
Our role of supporter after compassion and suggestions seems like a good end to the triangle. As I'll support my husband as much as I can, as any friend could. But not at my own expense. Maybe there's a better word?
I'm also doing it in my own twisted way as of late. I'm recongnizing a FLURRY of fellow AA members with blantant codie issues. I have to watch myself - Unsolicited advice!
I was thinking about how the triangle should have looked instead of the other way around. So, it should have went something like this:
Rescuer = Prosecuter = Victim
Could be this:
Sympathizer = Suggester = Supporter
Our role of supporter after compassion and suggestions seems like a good end to the triangle. As I'll support my husband as much as I can, as any friend could. But not at my own expense. Maybe there's a better word?
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 626
I think it's all about expectations and motivation. What is our motivation for helping someone? And then getting gut-level honest about determining WHY we want to do it. I'm of the opinion that if we have any expectations regarding the outcome, then we don't do it until we can - if that makes any sense.
Go ask the Multivax
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
That makes perfect sense. As a matter of fact, it's expectations that are a real hinderance to my growth. I talked about them in some other thread a while ago. It's an issue that I want to erase. But I know I can't. I'm trying to look at things instead as preferences. Then, there's needs. Or for me, fundamental needs. As I tend to place things in the catagory of needs when it should be a preference and vice versa. So, fundamental needs for me keeps the catagory smaller. As I'm needy! <- yuck.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 512
I'm still wallowing in detachment. Doing the memory recall of how I did in fact detach, in little baby steps. Not enough, but it was a start. Trying to make myself feel better. I guess. I love the triangle theory and whoa, it's true! I see it in my relationships with my kids, etc.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
