Crazy-making: manipulation
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 566
Crazy-making: manipulation
So my A and I are taking a 1 month break, which isn't stipulated as no-contact, and already I've been contacted...it only took a day and a half for me to get an e-mail. The statement that was made during the counseling session was that my A would contact me "2 or 3 times" during the month-long break. I got an e-mail about dropping something off to me before my A travels for a week and a half. I haven't responded but plan to...something along the lines of them hanging onto the item until we see each other at the next counseling appointment, and I'll work with the counselor to get that scheduled and send an e-mail to A to confirm the dates.
I've been working really hard to not feel "hooked" by this. I think I'm doing pretty well, because I could make myself really crazy by thinking about all the ulterior motives my A had in sending that e-mail. The worst thing for me right now would be to see them to exchange an item, or for any other reason. I'm working really hard to live from my healthier self instead of letting myself slip into old patterns.
The thing is, I'm struggling with how I know I've felt with the manipulation, but it's really hard at this time to pinpoint the manipulation itself. It's just the FEELING I get about it, even though other people in my life don't necessarily interpret the interaction as manipulative. They'll even say "oh, I see the other point of view". But sometimes there's that ache in my stomach that I'm recognizing as saying, "There's a boundary being crossed here!" However, I recognize the I'm inclined to be black and white in my thinking sometimes, so I begin to erode my own sense of my experience, and think there is something faulty/defective about it/me.
To make matters more challenging, it seems like my A kind of snowed the counselor this week. I don't know if that's really true, but I wonder. There was all kinds of praise from the counselor to my A as I was mustering all the strength I could just to ask for a "break". The counselor supported that, but encouraged me to come back and work through this conflict with A. I don't know if I can. The month is still young but I can't imagine that it will ever be healthy--or possible--to work through the issues. My A will say there's a problem with the drinking but for YEARS has said it's okay as long as the drinking is only "social" (despite periods of time of drinking alone, and not being able to NOT drink alone for very long). I can understand that I need to work through my own codependence, but I don't think my A is the person to help me with that given the mistrust (partially my issue, but I'm also mistrustful in this relationship for some very good reasons), the lying by omission, the circle of friends and family who encourage the drinking and sympathize with my A that I'm "not able to accept someone where they're at" and because I'm "so judgmental" and "won't let go and live and let live." Argh.
I don't even know if I've really gotten to the heart of the matter for myself, here. No doubt the insights you all have would really help me. I'd appreciate your thoughts. Basically, I'm questioning if I've missed something here...doubting myself. I want to believe that it's okay to want something different for myself than what this relationship can offer, and I feel like a bad person for not being able to accept my A and not being sure I can work through this with them--especially when the counselor has said this is "healthy conflict" and it will help us to grow as individuals. Am I leaving this process too soon?
Make sense? I'm off to an Alanon meeting...good timing, huh?
posie
I've been working really hard to not feel "hooked" by this. I think I'm doing pretty well, because I could make myself really crazy by thinking about all the ulterior motives my A had in sending that e-mail. The worst thing for me right now would be to see them to exchange an item, or for any other reason. I'm working really hard to live from my healthier self instead of letting myself slip into old patterns.
The thing is, I'm struggling with how I know I've felt with the manipulation, but it's really hard at this time to pinpoint the manipulation itself. It's just the FEELING I get about it, even though other people in my life don't necessarily interpret the interaction as manipulative. They'll even say "oh, I see the other point of view". But sometimes there's that ache in my stomach that I'm recognizing as saying, "There's a boundary being crossed here!" However, I recognize the I'm inclined to be black and white in my thinking sometimes, so I begin to erode my own sense of my experience, and think there is something faulty/defective about it/me.
To make matters more challenging, it seems like my A kind of snowed the counselor this week. I don't know if that's really true, but I wonder. There was all kinds of praise from the counselor to my A as I was mustering all the strength I could just to ask for a "break". The counselor supported that, but encouraged me to come back and work through this conflict with A. I don't know if I can. The month is still young but I can't imagine that it will ever be healthy--or possible--to work through the issues. My A will say there's a problem with the drinking but for YEARS has said it's okay as long as the drinking is only "social" (despite periods of time of drinking alone, and not being able to NOT drink alone for very long). I can understand that I need to work through my own codependence, but I don't think my A is the person to help me with that given the mistrust (partially my issue, but I'm also mistrustful in this relationship for some very good reasons), the lying by omission, the circle of friends and family who encourage the drinking and sympathize with my A that I'm "not able to accept someone where they're at" and because I'm "so judgmental" and "won't let go and live and let live." Argh.
I don't even know if I've really gotten to the heart of the matter for myself, here. No doubt the insights you all have would really help me. I'd appreciate your thoughts. Basically, I'm questioning if I've missed something here...doubting myself. I want to believe that it's okay to want something different for myself than what this relationship can offer, and I feel like a bad person for not being able to accept my A and not being sure I can work through this with them--especially when the counselor has said this is "healthy conflict" and it will help us to grow as individuals. Am I leaving this process too soon?
Make sense? I'm off to an Alanon meeting...good timing, huh?
posie
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
Originally Posted by posiesperson 
Basically, I'm questioning if I've missed something here...doubting myself. I want to believe that it's okay to want something different for myself than what this relationship can offer, and I feel like a bad person for not being able to accept my A and not being sure I can work through this with them--especially when the counselor has said this is "healthy conflict" and it will help us to grow as individuals. Am I leaving this process too soon?
A relationship with an active A is anything but healthy, and to expect to 'work through' issues in a relationship with an active alcoholic like you would in a relationship where alcoholism isn't involved is unrealistic, in my opinion.
In looking back over the years, I always had that gut feeling when someone was stepping over a boundary of mine, just as you described. But, with the insanity of my codependency, I of course always questioned my own instincts.
It was crazy-making behavior for sure!
It's okay to want more out of life. It's okay to recognize there is just nothing left to give in the relationship.
The counselor does not live in your shoes.
There are good counselors, and there are bad counselors. I've had both in the past.
:ghug3 :ghug3
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
The thing is, I'm struggling with how I know I've felt with the manipulation, but it's really hard at this time to pinpoint the manipulation itself. It's just the FEELING I get about it, even though other people in my life don't necessarily interpret the interaction as manipulative. They'll even say "oh, I see the other point of view". But sometimes there's that ache in my stomach that I'm recognizing as saying, "There's a boundary being crossed here!" However, I recognize the I'm inclined to be black and white in my thinking sometimes, so I begin to erode my own sense of my experience, and think there is something faulty/defective about it/me.
You HAVE to re-learn to trust yourself FIRST, trust your instincts again. I put "Trust your instinx" in my cell phone 13 years ago and every time I opened my cell phone all those years it was there to remind me (up until this past December when I got a cell phone that does not have that function).
YOU ARE RIGHT Posie. SOMETHING is amiss here. And YOU are THE BEST authority on this. Stay away from him just like you set your boundary to do. Ignore him and his stupid excuses and reasons and rationalizations to drag you back into his mess yet again.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
this, for what's it worth, is some of my experience:
"learn's" point is well taken, but my BS meter has gone awry, due to much lying/manipulations that have ocurred in my relationship. i think for the most part, we can trust our instinct regarding manipulations and such, but i have found out that sometimes i'm simply wrong. it makes it complicated.
you want answers right now. but that is simply not going to happen. your counselor may or may not be correct - i too am suspect at his advice. what i think is that you have a HUGE pile of resentment. it is clear that you have been through a lot, and that doesn't just go away just because he gets sober.
it takes time.
it takes time to work things through and time to chip away at those resentments. the waiting has been hard for me. we want our resolutions and our answers RIGHT NOW. i have found that taking time away from the problem helps with my perspective and my anger. expectations - again, this is a process. for both of you.
try to answer the email in as direct way as possible - when you're ready. if there is a business item to take care of, do only that. then back away.
sorry if i have further confused you, but this is my experience. hope it made some sense.
the HOPE part, is that with working your al-anon program, and working with a therapist you like and trust, is that things can and do improve. but only if you're both working at it.
"learn's" point is well taken, but my BS meter has gone awry, due to much lying/manipulations that have ocurred in my relationship. i think for the most part, we can trust our instinct regarding manipulations and such, but i have found out that sometimes i'm simply wrong. it makes it complicated.
you want answers right now. but that is simply not going to happen. your counselor may or may not be correct - i too am suspect at his advice. what i think is that you have a HUGE pile of resentment. it is clear that you have been through a lot, and that doesn't just go away just because he gets sober.
it takes time.
it takes time to work things through and time to chip away at those resentments. the waiting has been hard for me. we want our resolutions and our answers RIGHT NOW. i have found that taking time away from the problem helps with my perspective and my anger. expectations - again, this is a process. for both of you.
try to answer the email in as direct way as possible - when you're ready. if there is a business item to take care of, do only that. then back away.
sorry if i have further confused you, but this is my experience. hope it made some sense.
the HOPE part, is that with working your al-anon program, and working with a therapist you like and trust, is that things can and do improve. but only if you're both working at it.
Go ask the Multivax
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Makes sense to me.
When I get an email. My codependant can take over. "But what do these words REALLY mean!?" So, I'm TRYING to toss that out the window and really work on reading things at face value. If it's not in the email, it doesn't exist anywhere but in my head.
It's really HARD!!!
When I get an email. My codependant can take over. "But what do these words REALLY mean!?" So, I'm TRYING to toss that out the window and really work on reading things at face value. If it's not in the email, it doesn't exist anywhere but in my head.
It's really HARD!!!
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 11
Amazing.
Originally Posted by posiesperson
the lying by omission, the circle of friends and family who encourage the drinking and sympathize with my A that I'm "not able to accept someone where they're at" and because I'm "so judgmental" and "won't let go and live and let live." Argh.
posie
posie
The friends and family issue has made me feel literally insane & crazy at times! That is why this site is a Godsend to me, we are not ALONE!
Sorry for your struggles, hope the rest of the month gives you serenity and clarity! I feel for you!
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 394
Originally Posted by posiesperson
So my A and I are taking a 1 month break, which isn't stipulated as no-contact, and already I've been contacted...it only took a day and a half for me to get an e-mail. The statement that was made during the counseling session was that my A would contact me "2 or 3 times" during the month-long break. I got an e-mail about dropping something off to me before my A travels for a week and a half. I haven't responded but plan to...something along the lines of them hanging onto the item until we see each other at the next counseling appointment, and I'll work with the counselor to get that scheduled and send an e-mail to A to confirm the dates.
I've been working really hard to not feel "hooked" by this. I think I'm doing pretty well, because I could make myself really crazy by thinking about all the ulterior motives my A had in sending that e-mail. The worst thing for me right now would be to see them to exchange an item, or for any other reason. I'm working really hard to live from my healthier self instead of letting myself slip into old patterns.
The thing is, I'm struggling with how I know I've felt with the manipulation, but it's really hard at this time to pinpoint the manipulation itself. It's just the FEELING I get about it, even though other people in my life don't necessarily interpret the interaction as manipulative. They'll even say "oh, I see the other point of view". But sometimes there's that ache in my stomach that I'm recognizing as saying, "There's a boundary being crossed here!" However, I recognize the I'm inclined to be black and white in my thinking sometimes, so I begin to erode my own sense of my experience, and think there is something faulty/defective about it/me.
To make matters more challenging, it seems like my A kind of snowed the counselor this week. I don't know if that's really true, but I wonder. There was all kinds of praise from the counselor to my A as I was mustering all the strength I could just to ask for a "break". The counselor supported that, but encouraged me to come back and work through this conflict with A. I don't know if I can. The month is still young but I can't imagine that it will ever be healthy--or possible--to work through the issues. My A will say there's a problem with the drinking but for YEARS has said it's okay as long as the drinking is only "social" (despite periods of time of drinking alone, and not being able to NOT drink alone for very long). I can understand that I need to work through my own codependence, but I don't think my A is the person to help me with that given the mistrust (partially my issue, but I'm also mistrustful in this relationship for some very good reasons), the lying by omission, the circle of friends and family who encourage the drinking and sympathize with my A that I'm "not able to accept someone where they're at" and because I'm "so judgmental" and "won't let go and live and let live." Argh.
I don't even know if I've really gotten to the heart of the matter for myself, here. No doubt the insights you all have would really help me. I'd appreciate your thoughts. Basically, I'm questioning if I've missed something here...doubting myself. I want to believe that it's okay to want something different for myself than what this relationship can offer, and I feel like a bad person for not being able to accept my A and not being sure I can work through this with them--especially when the counselor has said this is "healthy conflict" and it will help us to grow as individuals. Am I leaving this process too soon?
Make sense? I'm off to an Alanon meeting...good timing, huh?
posie
I've been working really hard to not feel "hooked" by this. I think I'm doing pretty well, because I could make myself really crazy by thinking about all the ulterior motives my A had in sending that e-mail. The worst thing for me right now would be to see them to exchange an item, or for any other reason. I'm working really hard to live from my healthier self instead of letting myself slip into old patterns.
The thing is, I'm struggling with how I know I've felt with the manipulation, but it's really hard at this time to pinpoint the manipulation itself. It's just the FEELING I get about it, even though other people in my life don't necessarily interpret the interaction as manipulative. They'll even say "oh, I see the other point of view". But sometimes there's that ache in my stomach that I'm recognizing as saying, "There's a boundary being crossed here!" However, I recognize the I'm inclined to be black and white in my thinking sometimes, so I begin to erode my own sense of my experience, and think there is something faulty/defective about it/me.
To make matters more challenging, it seems like my A kind of snowed the counselor this week. I don't know if that's really true, but I wonder. There was all kinds of praise from the counselor to my A as I was mustering all the strength I could just to ask for a "break". The counselor supported that, but encouraged me to come back and work through this conflict with A. I don't know if I can. The month is still young but I can't imagine that it will ever be healthy--or possible--to work through the issues. My A will say there's a problem with the drinking but for YEARS has said it's okay as long as the drinking is only "social" (despite periods of time of drinking alone, and not being able to NOT drink alone for very long). I can understand that I need to work through my own codependence, but I don't think my A is the person to help me with that given the mistrust (partially my issue, but I'm also mistrustful in this relationship for some very good reasons), the lying by omission, the circle of friends and family who encourage the drinking and sympathize with my A that I'm "not able to accept someone where they're at" and because I'm "so judgmental" and "won't let go and live and let live." Argh.
I don't even know if I've really gotten to the heart of the matter for myself, here. No doubt the insights you all have would really help me. I'd appreciate your thoughts. Basically, I'm questioning if I've missed something here...doubting myself. I want to believe that it's okay to want something different for myself than what this relationship can offer, and I feel like a bad person for not being able to accept my A and not being sure I can work through this with them--especially when the counselor has said this is "healthy conflict" and it will help us to grow as individuals. Am I leaving this process too soon?
Make sense? I'm off to an Alanon meeting...good timing, huh?
posie
I remember being in this place. My A snowjobbed our counselor, never listened to a word he said. That along with the manipulation and the sneaky drinking, refusal at any and all compromise or cooperation.
Ugh. Just Ugh.
You'll go on like this for awhile but trust me, you'll tire of it. I know I did. I just gave up in the end and moved on as it was all so pointless. Not even being straight up with the counselor or in pursuing sobriety.....it's all insincere. You can't reason with an alcoholic. You'll soon see this and give up like I did.
I'll tell you one thing - it's liberating to not give a sh*t anymore, I know that much.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 594
No contact was the best thing I could have done. I feel quiet inside again, peaceful. You'll know when you've had enough. You'll know when things start to feel so unhealthy you're in danger of losing yourself. You'll know. And it won't matter what anyone says. You'll do what's best for you.
Have a great weekend with you!
Have a great weekend with you!
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,888
I'm with L2L on trusting my instincts.
My experience has been much like yours in that I have had this sensation deep inside that an interaction is manipulative or that I'm being challenged or pushed into something unhealthy for me at times and yet somehow I will always find someone (maybe my XABF, maybe a friend, maybe family) to say "oh now really, that's just a coincidence" or "you're just reading into it" etc, etc, etc. I used to think I was crazy because I was always looking at things differently than those I sought advice from. Sadly, though, in the end my gut instincts were right and I got hurt time and time again. All those helpful Hannahs weren't shouldering the blame either because, after all, it was my choice in how I proceeded. They were just trying to help.
I have come to understand after all these years of crazy making, that while I think I'm seeking out second opinions to validate these gut feelings, I have actually been doing the oposite. In reality, I am actually drawn to the opinions the turn me AWAY from what I really think is wrong. If everyone says there's no real problem, then all the hurt will go away, right?
These days, I have to push myself to follow my feelings. My feelings aren't putting anyone on death row. If I'm wrong in my gut about someone being unhealthy to be around, then I'm wrong. It's not going to kill someone because I don't feel comfortable around them. It's just not. There's a man who comes around to help out on the farm and I don't like him. I just don't. I've kept my distance and he's been annoyed by that. Lo' and behold I've been finding out more info from those who've known him that he's not the good old guy he pretends to be. He's got a past with drug use, and being a cad to women. He's immature and a hot head. Now, I may not have been able to pin all these things down about him when we were first introduced, but I knew there was something I didn't like about him. I've been called a big B for not giving him a chance. A chance for what? I don't have to let unhealthy people prove to me they are unhealthy for me to be around. It's okay to forgoe the hurt and just step back from the start. He hasn't been hauled away by the authorities because I'm not his friend.
There will always be those to see the other side of an issue. It's the devil's advocate as they say. Maybe for a time, leave these folks out of your decision making, trust your first impressions, and see how things go. You may know a whole lot than you think you do about what's a healthy path for you and what isn't.
Alice
My experience has been much like yours in that I have had this sensation deep inside that an interaction is manipulative or that I'm being challenged or pushed into something unhealthy for me at times and yet somehow I will always find someone (maybe my XABF, maybe a friend, maybe family) to say "oh now really, that's just a coincidence" or "you're just reading into it" etc, etc, etc. I used to think I was crazy because I was always looking at things differently than those I sought advice from. Sadly, though, in the end my gut instincts were right and I got hurt time and time again. All those helpful Hannahs weren't shouldering the blame either because, after all, it was my choice in how I proceeded. They were just trying to help.
I have come to understand after all these years of crazy making, that while I think I'm seeking out second opinions to validate these gut feelings, I have actually been doing the oposite. In reality, I am actually drawn to the opinions the turn me AWAY from what I really think is wrong. If everyone says there's no real problem, then all the hurt will go away, right?
These days, I have to push myself to follow my feelings. My feelings aren't putting anyone on death row. If I'm wrong in my gut about someone being unhealthy to be around, then I'm wrong. It's not going to kill someone because I don't feel comfortable around them. It's just not. There's a man who comes around to help out on the farm and I don't like him. I just don't. I've kept my distance and he's been annoyed by that. Lo' and behold I've been finding out more info from those who've known him that he's not the good old guy he pretends to be. He's got a past with drug use, and being a cad to women. He's immature and a hot head. Now, I may not have been able to pin all these things down about him when we were first introduced, but I knew there was something I didn't like about him. I've been called a big B for not giving him a chance. A chance for what? I don't have to let unhealthy people prove to me they are unhealthy for me to be around. It's okay to forgoe the hurt and just step back from the start. He hasn't been hauled away by the authorities because I'm not his friend.
There will always be those to see the other side of an issue. It's the devil's advocate as they say. Maybe for a time, leave these folks out of your decision making, trust your first impressions, and see how things go. You may know a whole lot than you think you do about what's a healthy path for you and what isn't.
Alice
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 566
This is oh-so-helpful to me. When I wrote this post this morning I was practically desperate for the Alanon meeting, and I knew that I'd come home to find support here, with wonderful insights and understanding. Thank you.
Trusting my intuition is definitely a learning curve! I can meditate, get clear on something, and then throughout the day remember to trust THAT, as if it's external. I feel a disconnection by approaching things this way and I want to bring that personal understanding into my life in a moment-to-moment way, if that makes any sense. And yes, I think it will take time... I also found a sponsor today, and recognize it's time for me to work the 4th step and get a really good picture of my own self-assessment, with support. That feels good.
I wrote back to my A. and felt relieved that I had done that. I waited a whole day and a half to respond, so that I could be sure that the words accurately reflected what I wanted to say, and they did. Now I'll remind myself that I've let it go. I will contact the counselor and schedule that appointment for next month and in the meantime get my "intuitive legs" underneath me so that I feel strong and prepared for that meeting, no matter what the counselor advocates or encourages. I feel like I'm moving toward being "done" with the relationship, but I don't feel strong enough to commit to that just yet.
After my meeting I spent the rest of the day with healthy friends, laughing, walking, drinking coffee and also talking about what's been hard--but only to further my bonding with people who can understand and respect that I'm doing this work. That feels good, too. Each one encouraged me to go inward and decide what I want/need for ME. And this forum is supporting me in that way also, and I'm so grateful for all of you!
My inner kiddo is really squirming here, really worried about the fallout from that e-mail-- the punishment via passive-aggressive behavior, the possible screaming, the blaming for having "rejected" them. But the kiddo doesn't get to make the decisions anymore, and I don't have to be punished or screamed at or blamed. To be fair, it wasn't like my A did those things ALL the time, but even once would have been enough, and we're way past once.
A friend of mine said to me today, "There's a reason why people say that addicts are very likeable people--they are!!" I miss my A when I remember those powerful times when I felt love and connection, but it disappears in a flash when I remember the smell of alcohol on the breath, the insisting "I'm fine!!" after drinking and wanting to drive, and the fuzzy-mindedness of being told that my conclusions about things are totally off-base and judgmental.
I cry for the little one who is hurting so much, deep inside of me. Thank you for being the support that kid had no access to...
Much gratitude,
posie
Trusting my intuition is definitely a learning curve! I can meditate, get clear on something, and then throughout the day remember to trust THAT, as if it's external. I feel a disconnection by approaching things this way and I want to bring that personal understanding into my life in a moment-to-moment way, if that makes any sense. And yes, I think it will take time... I also found a sponsor today, and recognize it's time for me to work the 4th step and get a really good picture of my own self-assessment, with support. That feels good.
I wrote back to my A. and felt relieved that I had done that. I waited a whole day and a half to respond, so that I could be sure that the words accurately reflected what I wanted to say, and they did. Now I'll remind myself that I've let it go. I will contact the counselor and schedule that appointment for next month and in the meantime get my "intuitive legs" underneath me so that I feel strong and prepared for that meeting, no matter what the counselor advocates or encourages. I feel like I'm moving toward being "done" with the relationship, but I don't feel strong enough to commit to that just yet.
After my meeting I spent the rest of the day with healthy friends, laughing, walking, drinking coffee and also talking about what's been hard--but only to further my bonding with people who can understand and respect that I'm doing this work. That feels good, too. Each one encouraged me to go inward and decide what I want/need for ME. And this forum is supporting me in that way also, and I'm so grateful for all of you!
My inner kiddo is really squirming here, really worried about the fallout from that e-mail-- the punishment via passive-aggressive behavior, the possible screaming, the blaming for having "rejected" them. But the kiddo doesn't get to make the decisions anymore, and I don't have to be punished or screamed at or blamed. To be fair, it wasn't like my A did those things ALL the time, but even once would have been enough, and we're way past once.
A friend of mine said to me today, "There's a reason why people say that addicts are very likeable people--they are!!" I miss my A when I remember those powerful times when I felt love and connection, but it disappears in a flash when I remember the smell of alcohol on the breath, the insisting "I'm fine!!" after drinking and wanting to drive, and the fuzzy-mindedness of being told that my conclusions about things are totally off-base and judgmental.
I cry for the little one who is hurting so much, deep inside of me. Thank you for being the support that kid had no access to...
Much gratitude,
posie
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
yes yes YESSSSSS !!!!!!!
follow your gut feeling. It is NEVER wrong.
Think I'm makeing an overstatement?
I defy anyone to go back through all the bad events of their lives
and find they did not IGNORE that feeling.
and learn to LOVE the 'delete' button, hon!
I wouldn't even open it. (were it me)
I named mine the 'whatever' button.
That's 'old world' this is 'new world' I'm here... right now.
Maybe-
Even go as far to set ONE day per month (or two)
that you will open and read mail and no other.
You are right. (IMO)
I think aslo that he's just learned to say what the councellor wants to hear.
You vbet yer hiney that an A can butter up anyone.
how else could we afford to drink like we did?
It's nothing more than crossing boundaries.
YAY FOR YOU
follow your gut feeling. It is NEVER wrong.
Think I'm makeing an overstatement?
I defy anyone to go back through all the bad events of their lives
and find they did not IGNORE that feeling.
and learn to LOVE the 'delete' button, hon!
I wouldn't even open it. (were it me)
I named mine the 'whatever' button.
That's 'old world' this is 'new world' I'm here... right now.
Maybe-
Even go as far to set ONE day per month (or two)
that you will open and read mail and no other.
You are right. (IMO)
I think aslo that he's just learned to say what the councellor wants to hear.
You vbet yer hiney that an A can butter up anyone.
how else could we afford to drink like we did?
It's nothing more than crossing boundaries.
YAY FOR YOU Holly
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Upper East Tennessee
Posts: 2
Wow, you guys! I stumbled in here tonight and this was the first thread I found.
I soooo needed this. Thanks to ALL of you. You have validated my own inner intuition and I needed that more than I could ever say.
I soooo needed this. Thanks to ALL of you. You have validated my own inner intuition and I needed that more than I could ever say.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
great post, itsmealice.
thanks for being a member here.
posie, i'm glad you are getting clarity, and i'm sorry if i messed with you at all. i think you're moving forward just the way we do, when we can start to see the ending of the relationship, but we aren't quite ready to actually walk through that door.
thanks for being a member here.
posie, i'm glad you are getting clarity, and i'm sorry if i messed with you at all. i think you're moving forward just the way we do, when we can start to see the ending of the relationship, but we aren't quite ready to actually walk through that door.
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 566
Oh, and I'm loving the idea about "Trust your instinx", L2L. I'm gonna find a place to put that (maybe tattooed on the back of my hand?!) 
I'm going to struggle with the manipulation thing--it's just so insidious--but checking in and validating myself feels so much better than checking it out with my A, over and over and over...or anyone else, for that matter.
Alice, thanks for your comment about how if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm asking myself the question, "Even if I were wrong half the time, or only 25% of the time, isn't that still a lot?!" It's just not possible I've been wrong every single time, and some of this stuff has felt like much more than molehills, no matter how minimizing my A has been about it.
When I've dated before I've asked how well that person gets along with their exgfs. There's a red flag--it occurred to me (again) tonight that there have been several exs of my A and there is no contact with ANY of them. I was recently told by my A that no one else had brought up the question of drinking. Ever. Yet...at one point in time there was a statement made that began something like this, "When anyone else has ever brought up the drinking issue...ah, nevermind." Now, I'm suddenly the only one on the planet who has ever brought it up? Bulls**t. But the family and friends sure do keep the alcohol flowing, even though my A has said they are "looking at the issue". It's so sad. And I need to let it go, it's so not about me.
As for the "whatever" button? I'm not there yet barb, but I just might get there. This week I remember thinking "I am defective". Today, I'm thinking "I am hopeful."
Damn, that feels good.
posie
I'm going to struggle with the manipulation thing--it's just so insidious--but checking in and validating myself feels so much better than checking it out with my A, over and over and over...or anyone else, for that matter.
Alice, thanks for your comment about how if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm asking myself the question, "Even if I were wrong half the time, or only 25% of the time, isn't that still a lot?!" It's just not possible I've been wrong every single time, and some of this stuff has felt like much more than molehills, no matter how minimizing my A has been about it.
When I've dated before I've asked how well that person gets along with their exgfs. There's a red flag--it occurred to me (again) tonight that there have been several exs of my A and there is no contact with ANY of them. I was recently told by my A that no one else had brought up the question of drinking. Ever. Yet...at one point in time there was a statement made that began something like this, "When anyone else has ever brought up the drinking issue...ah, nevermind." Now, I'm suddenly the only one on the planet who has ever brought it up? Bulls**t. But the family and friends sure do keep the alcohol flowing, even though my A has said they are "looking at the issue". It's so sad. And I need to let it go, it's so not about me.
As for the "whatever" button? I'm not there yet barb, but I just might get there. This week I remember thinking "I am defective". Today, I'm thinking "I am hopeful."
Damn, that feels good.
posie
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 566
coffee, I totally respect your perspective, and I think it took courage to post it. I think I do need to look at my resentments and take responsibility for them. One of my friends today said something about being resentful when we don't ask and don't get. I have done both things, been indirect and not always emotionally honest because I was trying to figure out how to get what I wanted w/o asking and risking being told "No"...again...like when I was a kid. I have a lot of work to do on myself and we all do it in different ways, and with different timelines, as you said. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
posie
posie
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
Posie-
about that tattoo -
put it on the PALM of your hand and here's why-
In early recovery, I heard a sponsor tell his sponsee after a meeting -
"Put the palm of your hand on the end of your nose."
the sponsee did.
The sponsor said -
"Now - everything that is happening from the back of our hand - OUT-
is what you can do NOTHING ABOUT."
"Everything from the PALM of your hand ... IN -
is what you have authrioty to control and change."
I've never forgotten that day.
once again - a grateful eavesdropping codependent.:rotfxko
about that tattoo -
put it on the PALM of your hand and here's why-
In early recovery, I heard a sponsor tell his sponsee after a meeting -
"Put the palm of your hand on the end of your nose."
the sponsee did.
The sponsor said -
"Now - everything that is happening from the back of our hand - OUT-
is what you can do NOTHING ABOUT."
"Everything from the PALM of your hand ... IN -
is what you have authrioty to control and change."
I've never forgotten that day.
once again - a grateful eavesdropping codependent.:rotfxko
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wizard Land Downunder
Posts: 2,615
Agree wholeheartedly with the posts here.
One particular part of your original post really hit me Posie,
Quote from Posie (this is "healthy conflict" and it will help us to grow as individuals.
Healthy and Alcohol do NOT go together in any way possible, when active alcoholism and co-dependency are involved.
Trust your gut feeling, and do not push your doubts aside....those doubts are yours and there for a good reason....your protection.
You really feel you want and need a break from counselling and contact with AH?
GO FOR IT.
Obviously your body is telling you to ease off, relax, think in peace....so give it the rest it wants. Your AH will no doubt be still in the same place, when you resume contact and the counsellor isn't due to disappear in a puff of smoke, so have your break and then take up from where you left off......feeling rested and having had time to think it all out.
God bless
One particular part of your original post really hit me Posie,
Quote from Posie (this is "healthy conflict" and it will help us to grow as individuals.
Healthy and Alcohol do NOT go together in any way possible, when active alcoholism and co-dependency are involved.
Trust your gut feeling, and do not push your doubts aside....those doubts are yours and there for a good reason....your protection.
You really feel you want and need a break from counselling and contact with AH?
GO FOR IT.
Obviously your body is telling you to ease off, relax, think in peace....so give it the rest it wants. Your AH will no doubt be still in the same place, when you resume contact and the counsellor isn't due to disappear in a puff of smoke, so have your break and then take up from where you left off......feeling rested and having had time to think it all out.
God bless
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
I have come to understand after all these years of crazy making, that while I think I'm seeking out second opinions to validate these gut feelings, I have actually been doing the oposite. In reality, I am actually drawn to the opinions the turn me AWAY from what I really think is wrong. If everyone says there's no real problem, then all the hurt will go away, right?
And to this:
If I'm wrong in my gut about someone being unhealthy to be around, then I'm wrong.
The older I get, the stronger my resolve to make my OWN decisions for my life and not allow others to sway my decisions about who and what I allow in. It starts with trusting MY instincts and knowing and following MY values MORE than ANYone else's. When I take 100% responsibility for MY life and for making the decisions that rule my life, when I stop looking for someone else to blame, when I stop judging and feeling the victim, when I know my Higher Power is in control, my life is peaceful and serene.
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