A's with a memory issue
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
A's with a memory issue
just a whiney update...
My husband and I are stalemated. It is so beyond alcohol. I don't think the relationship can survive my confronting him. It just devolved at that point, and I don't think we can repair it. (Isn't that crazy?)
I knew he'd be upset, but...wow!
He canceled on our first couple's counseling and says it is useless, anyway. I'm going to go and see if I like him any better than my first counselor I picked. I can go until I leave in May.
I am thinking I will stay until May when I go to work in the park and if we are still like this, I'll just pack forever, rather than for 5 months.
He is now shut down and hurt and SURE I don't love him/hate him. He is SURE the relationship is doomed. If I tell him I DO love him he tells me, "That's bu!!s**t!"
I spent last week just doing things I enjoy and relaxing. I stopped talking about how we were weird or that day I confronted him or anything uncomfortable. Then, he has the nerve to complain we don't talk about anything anymore. But, every time I try to talk about anything of significance he drops his head, rolls his eyes, covers his face, and/or winces. GRRR!
Anyway, last night I asked him how long he was going to keep being that way. He said, "Do I have a reason to be otherwise?"
I said, "I think that answer is for you to decide. I think so."
He smirked.
I asked, "What would that reason be if you were to feel better about things?"
"I don't know."
I paused, flummoxed. Everything seems to end there with "I don't know". I then began to speak and he turned to me with GREAT annoyance and said, "WHAT??!?" like I was the most annoying, irksome thing on Earth.
I got mad and rolled away and said, "I don't like you treating me that way; I find it rude."
He mutters, annoyed, "Jesus Christ!" As if I am the rude/difficult one.
Double GRR!
After a time a said, "You speaking to me that way really hurt my feelings."
Silence.
"Hello? I'm telling you you hurt my feelings."
"About what?"
Although I am annoyed he doesn't know (WTF?) I replay it for him.
He responds, "I didn't curse!" (arguing on a technicality?)
"Whatever! You still made me feel like crap!"
He said in a dead-fish/zombie voice, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean it." As if he was saying whatever he thought I wanted to hear and it was all B.S. and he didn't care.
So we go to sleep.
In the morning he rolls over to reach out to me and I get up, instead.
He asks what I am mad about THIS time. (How does everything get turned around so I am the jerk?)
I say, "For our interchange last night."
He says, "What interchange?"
"Seriously? I already replayed it for you last night. You want it again?"
He says, "We are always fighting about something. How am I supposed to keep track?"
I say, "You speaking to me in a disrespectful way and your lousy apology. Just once, I'd like you to just admit you behaved rudely and we could move on!"
Eventually he says, "Sorry I made you so mad."
Which doesn't really get at it at all. But I let it go at that point because I would just be:horse
Apologizing that I was mad doesn't take responsibility for crummy behavior.
But I said thank you anyway.
He sounded...genuinely sad. Like he was painfully admitting he was the big jerk I thought he was. He sounded...downtrodden. Hopeless. Ashamed. It was manipulative, but I don't think purposefully. I think there is just denial of yuck behavior or acceptance of it in a way that proves he is an awful person to himself. There is no middle ground of 'that was a yuck thing to do and I admit I had a moment of yuck and it doesn't affect my self esteem and I am genuinely sorry'.
Later, I tell him about a website I am going to save in favorites 'cuz he would like it.
He says, "Why are you being nice all of a sudden?" (because I'm usually a jerk?)
I reply, "I can be mad and still love you. I can be hurt and still love you. I can be upset and still want to work things out. Normal people fight and get over it."
"Not like this," he says deadpan as he walks out the door.
<sigh>
So is he B.S.ing about not remembering or does he really space on it because he can't be conscious to it? Is he split personality for god's sake? I mean, does he disassociate when he gets to feeling so upset? Does he just not WANT to remember?
It does go right along with him suppressing uncomfortable things then feeling like I hit him with a brick when I came out to discuss them. AND him feeling like the whole relationship was a farce in the past, because, in a way it was (in his mind) in that he suppressed everything bad...
I know, I know, I am tripping on him and I need to just see the reasons don't matter, the behavior does. It's hard not to wonder, though.
Do your A's have this "memory" problem, too? What's that all about?
My husband and I are stalemated. It is so beyond alcohol. I don't think the relationship can survive my confronting him. It just devolved at that point, and I don't think we can repair it. (Isn't that crazy?)
I knew he'd be upset, but...wow!
He canceled on our first couple's counseling and says it is useless, anyway. I'm going to go and see if I like him any better than my first counselor I picked. I can go until I leave in May.
I am thinking I will stay until May when I go to work in the park and if we are still like this, I'll just pack forever, rather than for 5 months.
He is now shut down and hurt and SURE I don't love him/hate him. He is SURE the relationship is doomed. If I tell him I DO love him he tells me, "That's bu!!s**t!"
I spent last week just doing things I enjoy and relaxing. I stopped talking about how we were weird or that day I confronted him or anything uncomfortable. Then, he has the nerve to complain we don't talk about anything anymore. But, every time I try to talk about anything of significance he drops his head, rolls his eyes, covers his face, and/or winces. GRRR!
Anyway, last night I asked him how long he was going to keep being that way. He said, "Do I have a reason to be otherwise?"
I said, "I think that answer is for you to decide. I think so."
He smirked.
I asked, "What would that reason be if you were to feel better about things?"
"I don't know."
I paused, flummoxed. Everything seems to end there with "I don't know". I then began to speak and he turned to me with GREAT annoyance and said, "WHAT??!?" like I was the most annoying, irksome thing on Earth.
I got mad and rolled away and said, "I don't like you treating me that way; I find it rude."
He mutters, annoyed, "Jesus Christ!" As if I am the rude/difficult one.
Double GRR!
After a time a said, "You speaking to me that way really hurt my feelings."
Silence.
"Hello? I'm telling you you hurt my feelings."
"About what?"
Although I am annoyed he doesn't know (WTF?) I replay it for him.
He responds, "I didn't curse!" (arguing on a technicality?)
"Whatever! You still made me feel like crap!"
He said in a dead-fish/zombie voice, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean it." As if he was saying whatever he thought I wanted to hear and it was all B.S. and he didn't care.
So we go to sleep.
In the morning he rolls over to reach out to me and I get up, instead.
He asks what I am mad about THIS time. (How does everything get turned around so I am the jerk?)
I say, "For our interchange last night."
He says, "What interchange?"
"Seriously? I already replayed it for you last night. You want it again?"
He says, "We are always fighting about something. How am I supposed to keep track?"
I say, "You speaking to me in a disrespectful way and your lousy apology. Just once, I'd like you to just admit you behaved rudely and we could move on!"
Eventually he says, "Sorry I made you so mad."
Which doesn't really get at it at all. But I let it go at that point because I would just be:horse
Apologizing that I was mad doesn't take responsibility for crummy behavior.
But I said thank you anyway.
He sounded...genuinely sad. Like he was painfully admitting he was the big jerk I thought he was. He sounded...downtrodden. Hopeless. Ashamed. It was manipulative, but I don't think purposefully. I think there is just denial of yuck behavior or acceptance of it in a way that proves he is an awful person to himself. There is no middle ground of 'that was a yuck thing to do and I admit I had a moment of yuck and it doesn't affect my self esteem and I am genuinely sorry'.
Later, I tell him about a website I am going to save in favorites 'cuz he would like it.
He says, "Why are you being nice all of a sudden?" (because I'm usually a jerk?)
I reply, "I can be mad and still love you. I can be hurt and still love you. I can be upset and still want to work things out. Normal people fight and get over it."
"Not like this," he says deadpan as he walks out the door.
<sigh>
So is he B.S.ing about not remembering or does he really space on it because he can't be conscious to it? Is he split personality for god's sake? I mean, does he disassociate when he gets to feeling so upset? Does he just not WANT to remember?
It does go right along with him suppressing uncomfortable things then feeling like I hit him with a brick when I came out to discuss them. AND him feeling like the whole relationship was a farce in the past, because, in a way it was (in his mind) in that he suppressed everything bad...
I know, I know, I am tripping on him and I need to just see the reasons don't matter, the behavior does. It's hard not to wonder, though.
Do your A's have this "memory" problem, too? What's that all about?
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 35
Whew--I'd be completely flummoxed if my partner acted this way to me. I'm sorry you had to experience this. It seems very passive-aggressive, a method of shifting the blame from himself to you, but in a very wimpy, evasive way. If it were me, I'd almost rather he yell and scream and act like a jerk--at least that's honest. I've dated guys that are extremely angry but never, never show it. It was a very strange experience.
And yes, your beating the dead horse smiley is very appropriate and it sounds like you already realize that, so I'm not gonna lecture you about focusing on yourself--you know it. You're going through a period of evaluating your marriage, which is no small thing, especially since it sounds like there's some good in it. And it's much harder when the bad stuff is under total lockdown and intelligently manipulated to seem like it's really not that bad.
Be patient with yourself and the process of uncoupling, if that's really what's happening. Here's something out of left field: do you think maybe this is a preemptive rejection on is part? That he's so petrified of you rejecting him that he's rejecting you first? (not excusing his behavior).
And yes, your beating the dead horse smiley is very appropriate and it sounds like you already realize that, so I'm not gonna lecture you about focusing on yourself--you know it. You're going through a period of evaluating your marriage, which is no small thing, especially since it sounds like there's some good in it. And it's much harder when the bad stuff is under total lockdown and intelligently manipulated to seem like it's really not that bad.
Be patient with yourself and the process of uncoupling, if that's really what's happening. Here's something out of left field: do you think maybe this is a preemptive rejection on is part? That he's so petrified of you rejecting him that he's rejecting you first? (not excusing his behavior).
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
100% yes! You get it!
I think he has SUCH a low self esteem that looking at the bad stuff feels crushing to him. Thus, me bringing it up doomed the relationship because it was a knife to his heart.
In his world view there is no other way to read that day than I hate him and have always hated him (because the unspoken, "gentleman's" rule is you leave buried stuff buried).
So he has closed down communication. He doesn't feel safe and there is no way to get back in. He is pushing me away so I won't reject him. CRAZY!
And all my telling him I love him is violently rejected.
But how can you have a relationship with someone that can't hold on to love in the midst of hardship? That's insanity! That seems a basic, necessary component for a successful relationship, don't you think? If you feel unloved or feel an absence of love every time there's a fight...I mean, there is an absence of love and an ABSENCE of love. You have to (I think) have a basic assumption of love and care, despite the ups and downs. That's what makes the waves ride-able, in my opinion. God knows how scary it must be to feel like every time there is a problem there is no love! But that comes down to him feeling a basis of self love. I can't "fix" that. I can't love him ENOUGH to fill that hole.
Your saying I am "uncoupling" struck a chord! The other day, I was at the library and looked through the book Uncoupling, which seems very interesting. I was just reading the Amazon reviews and I found this, "...whether you are "the initiator" or "the partner" -- the book's idealized protagonists -- you will find out some very uncomfortable things about yourself. For instance, suppose you're the initiator and you've pumped yourself all up to leave with some standard self-help fare about "responsibility to yourself" and "personal development" and all that stuff. This book will rip the carpet right out from under your feet, as you realize that your carefully crafted justifications are just that -- justifications."
I am the initiator, but I feel like I don't have much to work with...
I never thought I'd be the one to leave...
But I never thought communication would be SO difficult!
I don't know any better way...
I can't make him feel safe...
I would LOVE to change this crazy dynamic...
But I haven't figured out how...
And now, the focus is SO FAR from my initial concerns, I don't even CARE about alcohol as much as I do about communication.
It feels so good to be "gotten"!
I think he has SUCH a low self esteem that looking at the bad stuff feels crushing to him. Thus, me bringing it up doomed the relationship because it was a knife to his heart.
In his world view there is no other way to read that day than I hate him and have always hated him (because the unspoken, "gentleman's" rule is you leave buried stuff buried).
So he has closed down communication. He doesn't feel safe and there is no way to get back in. He is pushing me away so I won't reject him. CRAZY!
And all my telling him I love him is violently rejected.
But how can you have a relationship with someone that can't hold on to love in the midst of hardship? That's insanity! That seems a basic, necessary component for a successful relationship, don't you think? If you feel unloved or feel an absence of love every time there's a fight...I mean, there is an absence of love and an ABSENCE of love. You have to (I think) have a basic assumption of love and care, despite the ups and downs. That's what makes the waves ride-able, in my opinion. God knows how scary it must be to feel like every time there is a problem there is no love! But that comes down to him feeling a basis of self love. I can't "fix" that. I can't love him ENOUGH to fill that hole.
Your saying I am "uncoupling" struck a chord! The other day, I was at the library and looked through the book Uncoupling, which seems very interesting. I was just reading the Amazon reviews and I found this, "...whether you are "the initiator" or "the partner" -- the book's idealized protagonists -- you will find out some very uncomfortable things about yourself. For instance, suppose you're the initiator and you've pumped yourself all up to leave with some standard self-help fare about "responsibility to yourself" and "personal development" and all that stuff. This book will rip the carpet right out from under your feet, as you realize that your carefully crafted justifications are just that -- justifications."
I am the initiator, but I feel like I don't have much to work with...
I never thought I'd be the one to leave...
But I never thought communication would be SO difficult!
I don't know any better way...
I can't make him feel safe...
I would LOVE to change this crazy dynamic...
But I haven't figured out how...
And now, the focus is SO FAR from my initial concerns, I don't even CARE about alcohol as much as I do about communication.
It feels so good to be "gotten"!
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 285
Hey wifeof
I lived that scenario about 5 years ago (previous relationship)
It wasn't until I went to a counsellor I realised i was living with a verbally abusive man and the "forgeting" is part of the crazy-making they perfect with time.
It may not be purposeful as you say but what you describe can be alcohol induced amnesia but also the patern of verbal abuse/manipulation.
Physical abuse is easy to define, verbal is really insidious, hard to pinpoint and damn confusing to live.
I lived that scenario about 5 years ago (previous relationship)
It wasn't until I went to a counsellor I realised i was living with a verbally abusive man and the "forgeting" is part of the crazy-making they perfect with time.
It may not be purposeful as you say but what you describe can be alcohol induced amnesia but also the patern of verbal abuse/manipulation.
Physical abuse is easy to define, verbal is really insidious, hard to pinpoint and damn confusing to live.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Humble, tx
Posts: 82
Hi W,
I wish we were neighbors. I'd invite you in for a cup of coffee and a listen to my alanon speaker tape library.
My A doesn't do emotions or get to the bottom of it. It's his denial. Mine is when I try to break through his denial of any issue. I'm denying my own serenity. Well, it happens.
I'm jumping around a bit, sorry.
Last night welistened to a speaker tape. He liked it and began sharing about his denial! He told me, that when I left him in 07 he hit his bottom, his family sent him to a therapist who told him go to aa, gave him a bb of aa, and helped him? He said he really honestly believed drinkining equaled fun. He thought giving up alcohol meant no more fun ever! So, me and my big mouth, well wasn 't the speaker funny? Wasn't sitting here sharing themiracle of a recovering addict/alcoholic/alanon fun? He sez honestly I got the urge to drink today. I asked the urge? Not in my hulahoop, danger dear Codie danger! He said yes, the sportsbar across from our place of buisness was barbequing, and he wanted to go and try some controlled drinking experiment! Hello!!! He doesn't like sports! But he used to love beer! Argh, I'm a little proud of myself cuz I dropped the subject.
He has refused to apologize, apologized without meaning it and because it's one of those limbo things, I've been advised to let it go.
He hatesconfrontation, and I wish I did! I think too much, he doesn't! I have woken up with lasts nights resentments and should I reiterate... It only serves as a way to start a dance. The dance will usually end as he walks out the door, and I'm left to spin all alone.
You and I are learning new and more useful ways to channel our energy! just by sharing our dilemmas with our family here!
I wish we were neighbors. I'd invite you in for a cup of coffee and a listen to my alanon speaker tape library.
My A doesn't do emotions or get to the bottom of it. It's his denial. Mine is when I try to break through his denial of any issue. I'm denying my own serenity. Well, it happens.
I'm jumping around a bit, sorry.
Last night welistened to a speaker tape. He liked it and began sharing about his denial! He told me, that when I left him in 07 he hit his bottom, his family sent him to a therapist who told him go to aa, gave him a bb of aa, and helped him? He said he really honestly believed drinkining equaled fun. He thought giving up alcohol meant no more fun ever! So, me and my big mouth, well wasn 't the speaker funny? Wasn't sitting here sharing themiracle of a recovering addict/alcoholic/alanon fun? He sez honestly I got the urge to drink today. I asked the urge? Not in my hulahoop, danger dear Codie danger! He said yes, the sportsbar across from our place of buisness was barbequing, and he wanted to go and try some controlled drinking experiment! Hello!!! He doesn't like sports! But he used to love beer! Argh, I'm a little proud of myself cuz I dropped the subject.
He has refused to apologize, apologized without meaning it and because it's one of those limbo things, I've been advised to let it go.
He hatesconfrontation, and I wish I did! I think too much, he doesn't! I have woken up with lasts nights resentments and should I reiterate... It only serves as a way to start a dance. The dance will usually end as he walks out the door, and I'm left to spin all alone. You and I are learning new and more useful ways to channel our energy! just by sharing our dilemmas with our family here!
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wild West, USA
Posts: 407
This all sounds familiar-- my ex invested a huge amount of energy into developing thought and interaction patterns that led away from any sort of constructive interchange, and then told me with complete conviction:
"We have a problem communicating."
Yes, we did. It was impossible to communicate with someone whose primary goal was avoiding any sort of painful self reflection.
You can't make him be real with you. I hate it too. Hugs, and I hope your new job gives you some peace and stability for a bit.
"We have a problem communicating."
Yes, we did. It was impossible to communicate with someone whose primary goal was avoiding any sort of painful self reflection.
You can't make him be real with you. I hate it too. Hugs, and I hope your new job gives you some peace and stability for a bit.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
I could use that cup of...tea...LOL!
I am in a town where I have one friend, but she is married to the guy that sits next to my AH at work...so I am reticent to share too much.
The phone plan we are on is minimum minutes, so I can really only talk to folk on the weekends.
SR is my lifeline! If I'm not posting, I'm reading and it helps.
Hugs,
w
I am in a town where I have one friend, but she is married to the guy that sits next to my AH at work...so I am reticent to share too much.
The phone plan we are on is minimum minutes, so I can really only talk to folk on the weekends.
SR is my lifeline! If I'm not posting, I'm reading and it helps.
Hugs,
w
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
Here's another quote from the Amazon reviews of that book:
Diane Vaughan says that the death of love begins when one partner cannot hear that the other is unsatisfied. Then, the one who is unsatisfied secretly begins to leave. After that, she says, things go through stages.
That's IT, too!
Diane Vaughan says that the death of love begins when one partner cannot hear that the other is unsatisfied. Then, the one who is unsatisfied secretly begins to leave. After that, she says, things go through stages.
That's IT, too!
Blu**ed Lines...A ClockWork SR
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,529
INHO it's simple. He doesn't want to quit. He is playing the blame game to continue using. Sure memory can be affected by using. His "it's doomed" reaction to counseling says it all to me. It's only doomed if you go in with that mindset. Keep healthy boundaries for yourself and if you say you're gonna walk, do it if things don't change. Maybe tell him he needs to try to fake it 'till he makes it. Establishing new habits takes time and clean living doesn't come naturally/feel right untill some good sober time is in the bank. Best of luck, this can be really twisted stuff to deal with; especially when you love the other person deeply. Ultimately it's about you and getting what you want. Try calling yourself on enabling behavior and talk to someone who has been where you are and has gotten to where you want to be.
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 512
"until all addiction is erradicated..." our counselor's last piece of advice regarding the opiate addiction of late ABF, then she asked him...."have you been drinking". Two people have to WANT to go to counselor with an agreed objective to work toward.
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 28
You just exactly described an interaction between me & my AH.
I've come to believe that addiction/alcoholism is largely about avoiding painful / negative feelings. What my AH can't block out of his memory himself, he tries to wash away with alcohol or drugs. They don't realize they can't wash it away, they're just trying to cover a landfill with a handkerchief.
But, every time I try to talk about anything of significance he drops his head, rolls his eyes, covers his face, and/or winces. GRRR!
Everything seems to end there with "I don't know". I then began to speak and he turned to me with GREAT annoyance and said, "WHAT??!?" like I was the most annoying, irksome thing on Earth.
Does he just not WANT to remember?
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 512
Could you just leave him behind and go to a counselor for yourself? You know, the N-E-X-T attitude? Get up and go to a counselor and help yourself. Once you're gone, he's going to hire the POPE to counsel you and by then it'll be too late.
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,649
Do you know if he was sober or drunk during this exchange?
I grew up with an alcoholic father, a fairly heavy drinking mother and by the time I was a teen, I wouldn't even attempt to have discussions with them if they were in the act of drinking.
When I went chronic as an alcoholic it was pointless to discuss anything important with me when I was in the middle of a drinking session. And, I was too full of guilt, remorse and self hatred to discuss anything reasonably when I was not drinking!
Talk about a catch 22.
Sobriety is the only solution to that kind of communication problem.
I grew up with an alcoholic father, a fairly heavy drinking mother and by the time I was a teen, I wouldn't even attempt to have discussions with them if they were in the act of drinking.
When I went chronic as an alcoholic it was pointless to discuss anything important with me when I was in the middle of a drinking session. And, I was too full of guilt, remorse and self hatred to discuss anything reasonably when I was not drinking!
Talk about a catch 22.
Sobriety is the only solution to that kind of communication problem.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
You know, he said he'd quit, then changed and said he wouldn't, and now keeps all his alcohol out of the house. He has mentioned going to the bar with some coworkers at a conference and when I have left on 2 different trips there has been less in the alcohol cabinet (alcohol I use for cooking and a few odds and ends), so I assume he is still drinking, but he was already so stealth about it, and I have almost never seen him drunk...so I have NO IDEA how much he drinks or when.
I can't smell it.
He acts normal all the time...as far as being obviously drunk...
so who knows!
I can't smell it.
He acts normal all the time...as far as being obviously drunk...
so who knows!
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 545
Last year when my then husband (now Ex) agreed to go to counseling... the counselor was pretty quick to state that my husbands participation would be useless until he decided to get sober. My husband never went again and then berated me for going... saying "if you have things to say about our marriage... you should be saying them to me"...
I'm so glad to be past all that noise. I continued to go by myself and still do occasionally when I can afford it. I did choose a counselor that was faith based AND specialized in addiction... that helped cut out a lot of crap... the counselor knew exactly where I was coming from.
Bless you.
I'm so glad to be past all that noise. I continued to go by myself and still do occasionally when I can afford it. I did choose a counselor that was faith based AND specialized in addiction... that helped cut out a lot of crap... the counselor knew exactly where I was coming from.
Bless you.
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