Boundaries
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Join Date: Feb 2010
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Boundaries
I have been doing so much reading on this site. Thank you to everybody here who posts. I have realized as I've read and processed the information that I can't set boundaries for him, only for myself. Now, the hard part is living up to that.
Am I correct that we shouldn't discuss the alcohol problem with our partners? I am getting mixed information on this and am a little confused. I know when we discuss it, it doesn't go well due to his defensiveness. However, how do you NOT discuss it? Is not discussing it almost the same as saying you approve of it and the behavior they show when the alcohol is an issue? How is that being true to myself? Doesn't that just allow the behavior to continue... because if you don't say anything it gives them the message that it's no longer an issue for you?
I'm really confused about this and could use some guidance.
Am I correct that we shouldn't discuss the alcohol problem with our partners? I am getting mixed information on this and am a little confused. I know when we discuss it, it doesn't go well due to his defensiveness. However, how do you NOT discuss it? Is not discussing it almost the same as saying you approve of it and the behavior they show when the alcohol is an issue? How is that being true to myself? Doesn't that just allow the behavior to continue... because if you don't say anything it gives them the message that it's no longer an issue for you?
I'm really confused about this and could use some guidance.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 56
Hi there. It's funny that you typed this because I just wrote the EXACT question yesterday. I'm sure that you will get alot of specific replies that will really help you. The people on here know alot and have been through all this. Look at my post "Control or not to control. That is the question". As I said I typed the same thing. There were alot of good responses that I think you will be able to relate to.
I hope that you can stay strong. I know how confusing this all can be.
I hope that you can stay strong. I know how confusing this all can be.
RIP Sweet Suki
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In my sanctuary, my home
Posts: 39,904
Detachment does not mean approval. If the behavior continues, YOU have to be ready to enforce your boundaries. As you know, you cannot control them, but you can control how you deal with the issue. As an example, if you have a boundary of not talking to him if he has been drinking, then you have to be ready to do just that. You aren't trying to stop him from drinking, you are just removing yourself from the equation.
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Anywhere but here...
Posts: 227
Welcome to SR! I am so glad you are posting and getting some great insight and information!
I am new here too! This place has become such a wealth of information, and a safe haven to just vent! I love it!
From my own experience with my XABF, talk was cheap. I walked on eggshells around him. Whenever I even mentioned his drinking, either directly or indirectly, I was met with hostility, anger and blameshifting.
I can't tell you what to do. But when you decide on what boundaries you will set, you must stick to them. There must be consequences for the actions YOU will not tolerate. I must have said, Quit drinking or I am leaving you, at least 1000 times. He knew I wasn't leaving. There were no consequences, because I wasn't prepared to back up my threat.
However, the LAST time I said it, I meant it. And I left. Much to his shock, I am sure. I had finally backed up what I had been saying!
Set your boundaries, and give consequences if he steps over them. Be prepared to FOLLOW THROUGH and back them up. If you don't, he will not feel any loss or pain, and will think you are just quacking!
Its so very hard to do, but empowering. Concentrate on your recovery, your boundaries, and you will feel much better! Stay strong!
Peace and ((HUGS))
I am new here too! This place has become such a wealth of information, and a safe haven to just vent! I love it!
From my own experience with my XABF, talk was cheap. I walked on eggshells around him. Whenever I even mentioned his drinking, either directly or indirectly, I was met with hostility, anger and blameshifting.
I can't tell you what to do. But when you decide on what boundaries you will set, you must stick to them. There must be consequences for the actions YOU will not tolerate. I must have said, Quit drinking or I am leaving you, at least 1000 times. He knew I wasn't leaving. There were no consequences, because I wasn't prepared to back up my threat.
However, the LAST time I said it, I meant it. And I left. Much to his shock, I am sure. I had finally backed up what I had been saying!
Set your boundaries, and give consequences if he steps over them. Be prepared to FOLLOW THROUGH and back them up. If you don't, he will not feel any loss or pain, and will think you are just quacking!
Its so very hard to do, but empowering. Concentrate on your recovery, your boundaries, and you will feel much better! Stay strong!
Peace and ((HUGS))
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Quebec
Posts: 2,708
For me, "having THE talk" never worked. Nor did yelling, demanding, pleading, cajoling, manipulating, etc etc.
I chose not to have that conversation because words never affted my XAH in the least.
Instead, I chose to STOP giving him money to buy beer and I REFUSED to buy it for him or pour a glass for him while he was playing video games/watching tv because he was too lazy or too broke to get it himself. Once I started doing that, he definitely noticed. At some point, I stopped cleaning up the empties (I used to line them up ever so neatly on the counter in the hopes that it would become glaringly obvious to him exactly how many he had drank...nope!). Eventually, they were rolling around on the floor, dripping beer everywhere, clanking around whenever he kicked at them. By then, things were pretty much already over between us, most likely because I had stopped playing the role he scripted for me: good, quiet, do-it-all wifey.
I chose not to have that conversation because words never affted my XAH in the least.
Instead, I chose to STOP giving him money to buy beer and I REFUSED to buy it for him or pour a glass for him while he was playing video games/watching tv because he was too lazy or too broke to get it himself. Once I started doing that, he definitely noticed. At some point, I stopped cleaning up the empties (I used to line them up ever so neatly on the counter in the hopes that it would become glaringly obvious to him exactly how many he had drank...nope!). Eventually, they were rolling around on the floor, dripping beer everywhere, clanking around whenever he kicked at them. By then, things were pretty much already over between us, most likely because I had stopped playing the role he scripted for me: good, quiet, do-it-all wifey.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 3,335
I love Anvil's analogy. People are going to do what they want to do. Just like the weather, like it or lump it. We have no control over it. We can only decide how we respond to it.
Boundaries are for you - they are about the things you find acceptable in your life (or not). You didn't cause his behavior. You can't control his behavior. You can't cure his behavior or force him to fix it if he doesn't want to. All you can do is determine is what is appropriate for you and your life.
A boundary is:
xxx behavior is not acceptable in my life and if the behavior happens again I will respond by xxx.
That is a boundary. It's fair to tell him that. But if you have to have the same discussion more than once about something that is bothering you, and you aren't willing to do anything about it, talking about your boundaries become nagging and the discussions are pointless.
Boundaries are for you - they are about the things you find acceptable in your life (or not). You didn't cause his behavior. You can't control his behavior. You can't cure his behavior or force him to fix it if he doesn't want to. All you can do is determine is what is appropriate for you and your life.
A boundary is:
xxx behavior is not acceptable in my life and if the behavior happens again I will respond by xxx.
That is a boundary. It's fair to tell him that. But if you have to have the same discussion more than once about something that is bothering you, and you aren't willing to do anything about it, talking about your boundaries become nagging and the discussions are pointless.
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: eastern pa
Posts: 51
You are right iamsaved, i too threatened so many times with the" i am taking the kids and leaving" they take advantage of us because they know that we are not going anywhere, and that they can do as they wish when and however and we will be sitting at home waiting for them until that one day when we are not. we have FINALLY had enough. i wish i was ready for that. i am at that point but too scared to make the move.
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Anywhere but here...
Posts: 227
Originally Posted by rover 
You are right iamsaved, i too threatened so many times with the" i am taking the kids and leaving" they take advantage of us because they know that we are not going anywhere, and that they can do as they wish when and however and we will be sitting at home waiting for them until that one day when we are not. we have FINALLY had enough. i wish i was ready for that. i am at that point but too scared to make the move.
I was SO scared too. I was afraid of the 'what if's'. What if I didn't have the money. What if he got worse? What if he got another DUI? What if I abandoned him in his hour of need......what if, what if what if!
My rock bottom finally came, and I put it all in God's hands. I knew He would provide, and I believed that with all my heart. And VIOLA, 3 weeks later..I am in my new apartment, no drama, no stress, no drunk, no beer cans, no worries about HIS addiction.
It has truly set me free. I wish the same for you, beloved! I do!
I won't tell you I don't think of him, or pray for him. But the farther I get away from it, the healthier I become. I was so caught up in his addiction, and my reaction to it, that I lost myself in all the chaos.
Praying for you to find the strength to do what is best for you!
Peace and ((HUGS))
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,888
I will tell you my experience in the hopes it will help.
I had similar thoughts about detachment and boundaries with my XABF.
When I started recovery I felt a burden lift from me when I finally accepted that what I had been doing up to that point (as noday said, yelling, demanding, pleading, cajoling, manipulating, etc etc) wasn't working.
My instinct to talk it out with him and let him know I disapproved but wasn't going to get in his way was misleading me because I still had an inkling in my mind that I would still somehow say the right words and he would finally seek recovery.
I had to let all of this go and trust the process. If it worked for so many before me, I had to have faith it would work for me.
My detachment, which consisted of not giving him extra funds when he ran out of his spending cash, not holding dinner for him until he finally came home, not waiting up for him to get in, not looking for him when he didn't come home, not inquiring how much he intended to drink, and not checking up on how much he was consuming by going through his truck or the trash and more that I can't think of at the moment. I had a few lapses, but I got better at it.
Once I detached, I saw he reacted much the same way as when I would give him the silent treatment after one of his binges. He knew something was up and did a little walking on eggshells of his own. I noticed that he brought up the subject of his drinking to me on multiple occasions telling me how he was going to cut back or how he was going to change his habits, same old stuff. Initially, I just said "oh, okay" but kept on with my own recovery.
The detachment put my focus on me and what I wanted to do with my free time and I gained confidence to work on boundaries. My biggest boundary with him was over verbal abuse. I decided that when he became verbally abusive or I felt in any uncomfortable around him I would walk away, leave the room, leave the house, lock myself in my office, whatever I needed to do to feel safe and unaffected by him. This boundary had nothing to do with his drinking. He could be verbally abusive when he went without drinking for stretches of time. He could blame the booze all he wanted for his behavior, but the why no longer mattered, only how I felt was important.
I put this boundary into practice and he definitely noticed without me saying a word. He thought I was big B, of course, everytime I left him sitting there, but that his problem. He thought I was having an affair every time I got up, walked out, and drove off. He would follow me to my office door and want to come in. Only once did I have to tell him to go away. I think he knew I would call the cops by that point because I didn't have to say it.
He went through many moods and many protestations during this time. Went from super nice guy to super nasty drunk and back again in blinks of an eye. He had no idea how to manipulate me at this point and could feel my enabling slipping away so he was trying every old trick to get things back to the way they were.
He did bring up his drinking to me once more after I started acting on my boundaries. He told me he was considering quitting again and he wanted to know if that was what I wanted. He was looking for more than "oh okay" from me. I looked him straight in the eye and with as much compassion as I could muster I told him that I did not care how he chose to handle his drinking anymore. It was none of my business and I finally understood that. I only cared about how he treated me. If he treated me better as a result of quitting drinking than I would be happy with that. If he treated me better and kept drinking than I would be happy with that too. It was up to him. He of course made the excuse again that it's all the booze's fault he was mean to me. I told him it was up to him to work that out. I would no longer accept his mistreatment and if that meant separating then so be it.
It was not long after this conversation that he started just coming home very late and passing out or didn't come home at all. We spent a lot of time apart in the same house. I understood this to mean that he couldn't keep his anger in check (even with the addition of pot to his regimen) so his best answer was just to avoid me. I still had to walk out occasionally but it was required less and less.
I was biding my time to leave so I could get financially stable, but he lost his job and with it our hosuing so I had to make a big decision sooner than I expected. In the end we separated.
This got awfully long and for that I'm sorry, but I hope seeing how one recovery dance played out can give you an idea of how it can work for you.
Peace.
Alice
I had similar thoughts about detachment and boundaries with my XABF.
When I started recovery I felt a burden lift from me when I finally accepted that what I had been doing up to that point (as noday said, yelling, demanding, pleading, cajoling, manipulating, etc etc) wasn't working.
My instinct to talk it out with him and let him know I disapproved but wasn't going to get in his way was misleading me because I still had an inkling in my mind that I would still somehow say the right words and he would finally seek recovery.
I had to let all of this go and trust the process. If it worked for so many before me, I had to have faith it would work for me.
My detachment, which consisted of not giving him extra funds when he ran out of his spending cash, not holding dinner for him until he finally came home, not waiting up for him to get in, not looking for him when he didn't come home, not inquiring how much he intended to drink, and not checking up on how much he was consuming by going through his truck or the trash and more that I can't think of at the moment. I had a few lapses, but I got better at it.
Once I detached, I saw he reacted much the same way as when I would give him the silent treatment after one of his binges. He knew something was up and did a little walking on eggshells of his own. I noticed that he brought up the subject of his drinking to me on multiple occasions telling me how he was going to cut back or how he was going to change his habits, same old stuff. Initially, I just said "oh, okay" but kept on with my own recovery.
The detachment put my focus on me and what I wanted to do with my free time and I gained confidence to work on boundaries. My biggest boundary with him was over verbal abuse. I decided that when he became verbally abusive or I felt in any uncomfortable around him I would walk away, leave the room, leave the house, lock myself in my office, whatever I needed to do to feel safe and unaffected by him. This boundary had nothing to do with his drinking. He could be verbally abusive when he went without drinking for stretches of time. He could blame the booze all he wanted for his behavior, but the why no longer mattered, only how I felt was important.
I put this boundary into practice and he definitely noticed without me saying a word. He thought I was big B, of course, everytime I left him sitting there, but that his problem. He thought I was having an affair every time I got up, walked out, and drove off. He would follow me to my office door and want to come in. Only once did I have to tell him to go away. I think he knew I would call the cops by that point because I didn't have to say it.
He went through many moods and many protestations during this time. Went from super nice guy to super nasty drunk and back again in blinks of an eye. He had no idea how to manipulate me at this point and could feel my enabling slipping away so he was trying every old trick to get things back to the way they were.
He did bring up his drinking to me once more after I started acting on my boundaries. He told me he was considering quitting again and he wanted to know if that was what I wanted. He was looking for more than "oh okay" from me. I looked him straight in the eye and with as much compassion as I could muster I told him that I did not care how he chose to handle his drinking anymore. It was none of my business and I finally understood that. I only cared about how he treated me. If he treated me better as a result of quitting drinking than I would be happy with that. If he treated me better and kept drinking than I would be happy with that too. It was up to him. He of course made the excuse again that it's all the booze's fault he was mean to me. I told him it was up to him to work that out. I would no longer accept his mistreatment and if that meant separating then so be it.
It was not long after this conversation that he started just coming home very late and passing out or didn't come home at all. We spent a lot of time apart in the same house. I understood this to mean that he couldn't keep his anger in check (even with the addition of pot to his regimen) so his best answer was just to avoid me. I still had to walk out occasionally but it was required less and less.
I was biding my time to leave so I could get financially stable, but he lost his job and with it our hosuing so I had to make a big decision sooner than I expected. In the end we separated.
This got awfully long and for that I'm sorry, but I hope seeing how one recovery dance played out can give you an idea of how it can work for you.
Peace.
Alice
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
I'm really confused about this and could use some guidance.
Am I correct that we shouldn't discuss the alcohol problem with our partners?
So, practically speaking: It is easy for me and others to say, "It is not correct to discuss the problem with your partner," because we have already been through what we went through to develop this mindset. But there is no CORRECT or INCORRECT way, there is no way to ensure that if we do it one way or another we will get some specific, particular results. We must ALL learn for ourselves, and most importantly PRACTICE new ways of living ourselves. That is how we learn. So, try it out; try discussing it if that is your inclination; and see what happens. Then, adjust your behavior in some small way; try something different.
However, how do you NOT discuss it?
Quiet yourself and your mind by saying the Serenity Prayer however many times you need to say it, be it one time or one thousand. Breathe deep.
Ask yourself how you feel. Then, ask yourself what you want for YOURSELF (not want you want him to do or not do).
Ask yourself what you want to change about your life.
Examine what you want to change and see if there is anything that YOU PERSONALLY can control. Try something different in that area.
What you can't control, LET GO OF.
Post on SR about and discuss at an Al-Anon meeting.
Is not discussing it almost the same as saying you approve of it and the behavior they show when the alcohol is an issue? How is that being true to myself?
SILENCE can be a VERY strong statement in and of itself. You are TRUER to yourself in your silence than in your trying to control someone else.
Try to recognize, when you want to TALK about something, what is it you are WANTING or NEEDING from that person for YOU inside? Try not to stop only at the practical stuff. Look at the practical stuff and then dig beneath that for the FEELING you are looking to get from the other person.
Doesn't that just allow the behavior to continue... because if you don't say anything it gives them the message that it's no longer an issue for you?
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 285
it's not our job to try and CHANGE the behavior of others....we don't give or withold PERMISSION. instead we determine our own proximity and involvement to their behaviors and what impact we are willing to allow their behaviors to have ON US.
in real simple terms, let's say it's raining outside. we can't make it STOP raining but we can CHOOSE whether to go out in the rain.....or not. we can WISH it would stop raining, HOPE it stops, but that changes nothing. we have no control over the weather, only how WE choose to prepare ourselves and how wet we are gonna get.
so boundaries are like rain coats and umbrellas.....boundaries are about carefully discerning what is in OUR best interests.
in real simple terms, let's say it's raining outside. we can't make it STOP raining but we can CHOOSE whether to go out in the rain.....or not. we can WISH it would stop raining, HOPE it stops, but that changes nothing. we have no control over the weather, only how WE choose to prepare ourselves and how wet we are gonna get.
so boundaries are like rain coats and umbrellas.....boundaries are about carefully discerning what is in OUR best interests.
I have learnt so much about boundaries since coming here. i posted on SR. "These XYZ are my boundaries" and was kindly challenged by being asked so what will you do when he violates those boundaries...cos he will.
(Loving SR member waking me up)Oh Bugger! You mean I actually need to have a measurable action I am going to enforce! That was a huge turning point. My boundaries had been in my head and not even communicated to XAP. Then I had to turn them from empty pitiful threats to action I was prepared to take to make MY life healthy and whole.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 12
Thank you for your informative and caring replies. I am learning so much. I loved the rain analogy. It helped it make perfect sense to me. I'm still figuring out this site so am not sure how to do things here, but I tried to say thanks on the responses and nothing showed up.
I think I am going to have one last talk with him. The difference will be this talk will be about me and not his drinking. I will clearly state my boundaries and the consequences for breaking them, and let him know that I'm not going to be bringing it up again with him. I will be keeping to my boundaries and moving myself forward with my eyes open. I believe he will still get defensive because the topic is alcohol, but I know I will be being true to myself.
I love this man. I wish, I wish, I wish, but it is what it is.
I think I am going to have one last talk with him. The difference will be this talk will be about me and not his drinking. I will clearly state my boundaries and the consequences for breaking them, and let him know that I'm not going to be bringing it up again with him. I will be keeping to my boundaries and moving myself forward with my eyes open. I believe he will still get defensive because the topic is alcohol, but I know I will be being true to myself.
I love this man. I wish, I wish, I wish, but it is what it is.
Member
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 290
Originally Posted by danielsgirl
I think I am going to have one last talk with him. The difference will be this talk will be about me and not his drinking. I will clearly state my boundaries and the consequences for breaking them, and let him know that I'm not going to be bringing it up again with him. I will be keeping to my boundaries and moving myself forward with my eyes open.
Looking back now, I regret that when I first set my boundaries I communicated them to to AH right away, and told him that I would not remind him of my boundaries again - that these were the actions he could expect from me from now on. I had read all about boundaries on here, knew how to set them and that I needed to enforce them. When I set my boundaries, I had every intention to enforce them. I was excited to take control over my life. I felt strong and didn't think I was going to waver under any circumstances. I told him in great detail what my boundaries looked like - i.e. "if you do xy, I will do do...., if you continue I will....". And then when we got into a situation where I should have enforced my boundary, it was so much easier to fall back into my old pattern (I ended up making excuses for why I couldn't enforce the boundary at that point in time, i.e. it really wasn't that bad, it wasn't all his fault - I played a role in it too, etc.). As a result, he didn't really believe that I would do any of the things I had stated as consequences in my boundaries. It took him by great surprise, when I actually went through with it one day and called the police on him (I'm sure he thought, it was something I would never do. Even though I had stated it in my boundaries and threatened to call the police on him plenty of times before, each time it came down to acting on it, I got too scared to pick up the phone and dial 911). I now think it would have been better, if I hadn't communicated my boundaries to him right away and had made a little test run beforehand (or if I had just told him that I will no longer put up with xy and kept my actions/ the consequences to myself). Just my experience - I'm sure there are others out there, who didn't have that problem.
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Join Date: Feb 2010
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It took me until the day I left to finally enforce my boundary. After saying it 1000 times, I finally hit bottom with my A, and did what I had to do to save myself.
I don't think my A ever thought I would really leave him. I did. I said it, I meant it, and I did it. I was scared, but I was more afraid of the unknown of NOT living with his chaos!
I don't think my A ever thought I would really leave him. I did. I said it, I meant it, and I did it. I was scared, but I was more afraid of the unknown of NOT living with his chaos!
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 12
That is really good advice, Lotus. Thank you. I think that maybe I do need to give it a trial run before stating what my boundaries are. I don't want to lose credibility and I also know that if I state a boundary and then don't enforce it, then I will feel upset at myself. I guess I need to get a clear picture of what enforcing my boundaries really looks and feels like. I have so much anger over this and the things he's said and done to turn it around onto me, that I want to make sure I can enforce my boundaries without the anger.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hicksville, NY
Posts: 14
We are powerless, or can't control other people. However by setting boundaries we let other people know if they do something we don't want them to there will be consequences. For boundaries to (have any chance to) work they have to be reasonable and the other person has feel they will be enforced.
To me this is part of the Serenity Prayer. "...the courage to accept the things we cannot change (other people) Courage to change the things we can (by setting boundaries) and the wisdom to know the difference."
To me this is part of the Serenity Prayer. "...the courage to accept the things we cannot change (other people) Courage to change the things we can (by setting boundaries) and the wisdom to know the difference."
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
Originally Posted by rover
You are right iamsaved, i too threatened so many times with the" i am taking the kids and leaving" they take advantage of us because they know that we are not going anywhere, and that they can do as they wish when and however and we will be sitting at home waiting for them until that one day when we are not.
taking advantange of us. For some, probably, sure. But I think it's more of a learned behavior, that we are "taken advantage of" by these people in our lives.
When I sat at my (then-new) therapist's office, I said,
"I am in a quandary. I don't know how to such and such with my so and so" (details don't matter)
He said "well, I hear how you feel, and how you see this. But let me ask you, if I asked your ABF, do you think this is how he sees the situation?" I thought about it and said, "no, I think he would see it differently"
The thing was, I had something in my head, didn't really share it with him, then somehow expected him later to "get it" and why didn't he see the relationship the same way I did? But I let things go on and on and on a certain way, without communicating it to him, getting more resentful as it went on. Wow, what a lesson for me! All because I wanted to be this saint who was supportive and loving and didn't trigger his shame issues.
Anyway, I'm a communicator. I think yes, you [I]doI] talk about the issue. But, if you're just going round and round in circles, if you're just crying, nagging, b!tching, that is not productive.
oh, shoot, gotta go...
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Posts: 2,762
ok, i'm back.
i really loved everything "learn2live" said. and lotus, yes, and alice -- all good comments.
one of the things i am aware of, is how i communicate. respectfully, calmly, and matter-of-fact. i just want to say what i find not acceptable; i don't want to set up a parent-child kind of dynamic either, which is often hard to do. i think it might depend on how "bad off" your loved one is.
i really loved everything "learn2live" said. and lotus, yes, and alice -- all good comments.
one of the things i am aware of, is how i communicate. respectfully, calmly, and matter-of-fact. i just want to say what i find not acceptable; i don't want to set up a parent-child kind of dynamic either, which is often hard to do. i think it might depend on how "bad off" your loved one is.
May it be
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Location: A new day. Today I just see bright colors, in the small world of my dreams.
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accept the things I cannot change (other people); the courage to change the things that I can (That's me); and the wisdom to know the difference.
good descriptions about boundaries
good descriptions about boundaries
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