Learn2Live

I have become involved with someone recently who is also codependent and trying to extricate himself from a relationship with an alcoholic, drug-addicted (selfish, cheating, lying, lazy, etc) person. I don't personally know the alcoholic but our paths crossed for the first time today and I am feeling down about the situation and not sure why. I was indirectly affected by the alcoholic's selfish, bizarre behavior a few weeks ago, but not severely because I am mostly observing from the sidelines, keeping myself uninvolved. Mostly an irritation; an annoyance; a cause to reflect on my own choices in life.

Where I am "at" is weird because I am seeing the behavior of the active addict/alcoholic from such a new perspective: I am already emotionally detached from the situation; the addict is not my loved one. I have no relationship with the person so there's really nothing for me to do except keep my distance and protect myself where necessary-no problem there.

But I see the drama and the sickness and the denial from these sidelines and I don't know how I feel, or how I SHOULD feel. I hear about the things the addicted person is telling her small children; things designed to turn them against their dad; adult things that little minds cannot process; and I still just cannot comprehend WHY? Why would you do that to a child? How much benefit can this person possibly receive by exposing her children to what she is exposing them to? None of my perceptions or understandings I have acquired and learned and built over the years can explain this. OK, yes, they are SICK and they are selfish because of the drugs and alcohol but COME ON! These are just little kids! How can you do that, as their MOTHER? Does this person just have no maternal instinct?

12 years ago I would have committed myself to "saving" these kids by becoming intimately involved and intertwined with their father. I would have been angry, incensed, self-righteous, whatever it took to thrust myself as far into the lives of these people as possible, all for the sake of helping the children. But not now. And I feel bad about that. I feel bad that I choose to stay on the sidelines and not try to actively help them. I feel bad KNOWING there is nothing I can do but take care of myself so that if a time comes when those children reach out to me, I can be there to help when they ask. But not a moment sooner. Right? Am I right? Do I stay on the sidelines?

Or is this "poisoning" of their minds an over-exaggeration? Are the children really going to be permanently harmed or scarred by this? Is this going to just pass with no real consequence?

Something tells me I am not over-reacting. Perhaps it is the knowledge of the present-day lives of the children I could not save 12 years ago: The children I "abandoned" to their alcoholic and addicted parents in order to save myself; the knowledge that now one of them is in his 20s and is addicted to heroin and that the other is now 18 and cannot read. The knowledge that neither of them graduated high school because their mother pulled them out of public school when they were just in 2nd and 5th grades, in order to "homeschool" them. The knowledge that she never taught them anything; that she probably pulled them from school so that no teacher would see their condition and report the parents.

Do I just see too much? Know too much? What do I do, just turn my head? Someone please tell me that these new children's future is none of my business.

And the other thing that is bothering me right now is that I STILL question whether or not my perspectives and understandings of alcoholic / addictive behavior are correct. And I have seen and lived mired in this world, with this behavior, up close MY ENTIRE LIFE! The person LOOKS pretty normal, wasn't dirty or unkempt, obviously blew dry her hair this morning, wasn't doing anything crazy, behaved relatively normal in public, etc. But she can't see that her life is falling apart around her. Or am I just exaggerating in my head that her life is "falling apart"? She has already lost her husband, is preparing to file bankruptcy, is getting ready to lose her house, has gotten tickets for speeding, not putting the kids in seatbelts, and has been accused in court of other things (I don't want to tell too many details for confidentiality reasons) and she still cannot see that there is anything wrong. She still acts in ways that she is all about WINNING whatever argument, about being "RIGHT" and about proving the other person is wrong or bad. All to protect herself and her disease? I am so surprised at how baffled I have found myself today.

She has an excuse, reason, retaliatory remark, scapegoat, etc for EVERYTHING. The way she talks about things that are happening in her life astounds me. She is clearly in denial while her life is falling apart around her. This denial (and all denial I've witnessed) is so SCARY to me sometimes I want to puke. But why don't these people SEE any of this? Is denial really just SO powerful?

Any perspective or share would be appreciated. And thanks for being there.

MissFixit

My parents said and still say unkind things about one another. Pure selfishness, guilt and denial on both parts.

barb dwyer

Right. Correct-amundo. Affirmative. yes.


Yep.

That's what is known as 'minding our own business'.

And yes, Denial is a powerful mindset indeed.

I think this is a great teaching time for you.

Congratulations!

Pain, trauma, suffering, and injustice exists.
We were not put here to stop it.
We were not put here to bleed over it.
It's quite a task for the codependent to learn
to let injustice pass without depleting ourselves over it,
and to be ABLE to view such things .... from afar.

We were put here instead to learn and grow, live completely, give, and love.

It's the hardest task of the warrior to wait.
We can only wait and be ready to offer help when it is asked for.

Cowgirl1265

Oh, Barb, you are so wonderful. I loved this.

L2L, if you felt the children were in serious danger, you would have an obligation to notify the authorities. But if they are not, then it is not your problem to solve. Its sad, I know, but it doesn't belong to you, hon.

******{hugs}}}} You are struggling, but you are millions of miles ahead of where you were in your past. You recognize when your codie triggers are being set off!

Learn2Live

Somehow I knew that when I woke up this morning I was not going to feel any better than when I went to sleep last night. I realize now that I am depressed. And I know now, from reading some other SR posts this morning, that I am depressed because I am again dealing with toxicity in my life. I already had enough toxicity in my life at work; my boss is toxic to me. One minute he is nice and sweet and kind to me and the next minute angry and screaming at me. I have been wanting and trying to find another job in the organization in order to get away from him, but nothing YET. So I'm still affected by it every day. I try to control my reactions; I try not to be angered with EVERY interaction with the boss; but I am as of yet unsuccessful with that. So I AVOID him as much as humanly possible. Honestly, I HATE him and I do not like having those feelings. I don't and NEVER HAVE had feelings of hatred in many situations in my life, but I have them in this one, so I know I need to get away from him. I know no other way.

AND, now another toxic person is affecting me, although the situation is a little different. I did not invite her directly into my life; but she is in my life because I choose to associate closely with her STBXH. She comes with the package. It's an all-or-nothing deal because he has children with her. So I have serious decisions to make but I'm not sure how to think through all this and STILL stay in the PRESENT MOMENT. And how to not be judgmental. And how to appropriately control my own behavior and especially MY MOUTH so as not to hurt other people's feelings. And how to deal with the poisoned minds of the children and the possibility that the poisoning causes them to act JUST LIKE THE MOTHER (shudder). Yech.

But where I think I am right now is: My home is the one place in this world where I am in control of what occurs, and I am in control of who is allowed entry and when they must leave. My home is peaceful, quiet, and serene. My home is my refuge. Except now, in a fit of drama and BS, the alcoholic crackhead came here and entered here without being invited, or even told where I live. It has crossed my physical boundaries and I have sought help from the authorities to control it (the alcoholic crackhead) but failed in my attempt to do so.

Now I am back to feeling threatened and need to protect myself, but am not sure how. Is the crackhead going to go and do this again? Do I buy a gun? Get a big dog and train it to attack on command? Am I overreacting? I am so confused by the situation and all that I know to be the reality of alcoholic drug-addicted people, and how I understand their behavior and past experience with their child-rearing abilities that I don't know if I am able to see myself or what my true problem is clearly. Can you? I am trying to find the crux of the problem but feel like I'm all over the place.

All I know for sure right now is something is wrong. I want to cry. I am depressed. And I'm ANGRY that my personal boundaries have been crossed. I cannot get the experience of yesterday, the toxic behavior and the manner in which that person relates to other people, out of my mind and my heart. I feel like I am spending way too much time and energy on worrying about this issue and trying to figure out what to do. I can't sleep and I feel sick. She is a leech, a parasite. She is the seething spawn of Satan. Ugh. What do I do? So much negativity, pessimism, anger, sickness, HATRED. It drains me Help?

I am all too familiar with it but the only way I know to keep it out of my life is to keep those people out of my life.

barb dwyer

hi again L2L-

yep - I was right

(something I'm told I almost NEVER fail to point out - LOL)

it's a time of learning for you.

And you and I are learning similar truths in these paralell situations.

When I began examining WHY I am 'a jerk-magnet'....
I couldnt DO that by examining the men i'd been with.
EVEN the situations i'd found myself in.

I had to examine ... ME.

What about ME... kept this coming into my circle?


Ok.
So I 'learned' that I was 'taught' to attract these types
because of upbringing, etc.
(see me feel me touch me heal me Bullsh1t)

ok.

NOW... I'm learning ....
just HOW many OTHER ASPECTS of my life
has these SAME ELEMENTS.

For you -
it's your boss.
It's the same type relationship ...
without the sex.
The money is just flowing the OTHER way.

Somehow, on an UNconscious level
we're seeing these toxic behaviors
but they're *registering* in OUR minds
as 'right'. or even 'familiar' behaviors.

See what I'm saying?

I'm seeing the same thing -

all the way down to the COMMUNITY
I've chosen to live in.

Sort of a Gestalt kind of thing.
jor even re-training Pavlov's Dog.
if you can stand it.

man I hope that made sense.

wicked

you always make perfect sense to me barb.


learn to live, this is it. and this is all. thank you.

coffeedrinker

Well, I know you omitted details intentionally, but I am left with pieces missing that might make a difference.

The STBXH -- you said "she" comes with the package. So...you're dating this person?

When you ran into her the other day...was that her coming to your home? Is she the crackhead?

I think it matters because there's a whole different dynamic if you're seeing this guy.

I understand what Barb said in her reply, but I don't think we are supposed to casually dismiss the basic needs of children. Knowing what we can do, if anything, is the tricky part.

Yes, I think it's entirely possible that the kids' situation is triggering you. I think it's possible that the guilt you carry from the past regarding those other kids is being tapped into. That's not to say that you were negligent! I don't know the details and don't know how powerful or powerless you were in that situation. But maybe you haven't dealt with it completely?

I'm sorry I don't know if you're over reacting; I don't know how serious this thing is here. There are certainly degrees of abuse. But I think you are fearful of making a mistake in part due to a mistake that you feel you made years ago. Plus the wounded young girl inside of you reacts to other children being hurt. I think many of us are that way.

Learn2Live

Oh thank you so much everybody for replying because I am sinking and sinking back down into depression, withdrawing and I know not caring how deep I retreat. Feel so alone and want to cry but can't so wish you would say something to touch my heart and make me cry, anything. I think this is why they say I may have PTSD. The threat is just too much for me to bear; I know I'm too susceptible to the toxicity of toxic people; I just can't handle it.

Yes, I was trying to be careful and not to give too much detail because the person I am involved with is going thru a horrible, ugly divorce from the addict / alcoholic and I don't want to take the chance of making it worse for him.

So, practically speaking I have been focusing on what to do, that is, continue to get more attached to this man, ignoring the fact that the A&ASTBXW comes with the package? And knowing the probability that these children are going to be troubled teens in the not too distant future? When I have just recently discovered and implemented successful ways of thinking, living and behaving that allow me (FINALLY) to know and have Peace and Serenity?

I don't think it's guilt or unfinished business with the children I "lost" long ago, because I don't feel guilty and although it's a shame what has happened I know in my heart, soul and mind it's not my fault and I did the best I could. I think my trouble right now is the stress and fear I am experiencing from the physical threat, justified or not, I feel to my person, from this crazy, alcoholic person who does cocaine entering my home, MY REFUGE from all the stresses of the world.

But you are right Barbdwyer, I've something to learn here. And what I realize today is that for some strange and stupid reason, I did not recognize the threat to my own self, psyche, security, and person that I felt from the intrusion, the trespassing. I did not realize that I did not take the necessary steps to protect myself in the means available to me in this society because I was SO CONCERNED with doing things in a manner that would allow the PERPETRATOR to see what they were doing that was affecting me! I sacrificed my OWN feelings of well-being, my OWN security, for the benefit of the alcoholic drug addict! Which is the SAME thing I did for MONTHS, if not a year and a half, with the insane boss screaming and yelling at me. I don't take the steps I need to take to protect myself under threat, even when someone is screaming and yelling at me, abusive, blaming, toxic, forcing their way into my home, into my space, into my life. I just step aside, try to show or teach them what they are doing and how it is affecting me, and completely ignore and neglect my OWN needs. I think I even DENY them in my mind; they don't even come into consideration, even when I APPEAR to be taking steps to protect myself. Perhaps it's that I need someone else to point them out to me? Am I just broken?

Learn2Live

And now I have just reminded myself of how I did this 14 YEARS ago, making stupid financial decisions, in effect giving away $15,000 in my own hard-earned money that I could not afford to give away, in order to teach my drug addicted brother a lesson!!! WTH?!?! What the hell is WRONG with me?!

barb dwyer

I've never met an UNbroken person.

But I've met many REPAIRED people.

WOW!

Run yourself a hot bubble bath, hon.
Everything in that what you wrote
(what the hell? what language am I speaking here?LOL)

Everything I got from what you wrote
was ... boundary.

We dont know about the whole boundary thing.

So we have to be taught.
And we have to be teachable.

For some reason
ours ... (boundaries)
are invisible somehow
they seem to just fly up
and hit us in the face

like a stepped on rake.

First we become AWARE of a pattern
or a behavior, or a repeat of a prior situation....

we see out CONNECTION to it in the 'now'
and USUALLY ....
all the PAST similar situations
flash in our heads
like when you put two mirrors facing each other....
blang
blang
blang
back through the years
all the times it's happened before

but we should be HAPPY to have that happen

... because we're about to learn.

See??? It's a gift!

So now ... you run yourself a hot tub.
(if it were ME, I mean)
Some scented candles,
light 'em with shaky hands if you have to....

because these thoughts are going to rush around
so just by getting into water
you can let them wash and swirl
and you don't have to DO anything...
just let 'em go all they want
all that thinking
then let them go right down the drain.

I don't know why that works - it just does.

Learn2Live

Thanks. You are not barb dwyer, you are more like sof tpillow.

barb dwyer

awwwww.

none of y'all have seen that
(looks both ways )

OTHER side.

It's there.

but you're sweet. thank you.

Learn2Live

you know what's weird? Looking back at my posts and seeing the progression of my thoughts from Other-Focused thru to Consciousness of Self. Strange. I wonder if the earlier post reflects Denial at work? I pretty much started out completeely ignoring my needs and even state "there's really nothing for me to do except keep my distance and protect myself where necessary-no problem there" and was focused almost entirely on the behavior of the alcoholic, how they could do that, and the consequences for the children. But within a day my thoughts, from reading others' posts and self-reflecting, led me to myself and what I have been doing. It's kinda scary to see that all laid out in black and white on the www.

barb dwyer

but ... effective!

wooHOO!

Learn2Live

Big Book, fourth edition, page 405 (my bolds):

"They said I needed to identify, not compare. I didn't know what they meant. What was the difference? Identifying, they said, was trying to see how I was like the people I was with. Comparing, they told me, was looking for differences, usually seeing how I was better than others."

I wonder if what I am doing when I can't stop focusing on the alcoholic's behavior, and ask things (like I posted on Friday night 02-19-2010, 08:00 PM) like, "Why do they do that?" and "HOW could they do that?" is just me comparing. I have always said and believed that I don't compare myself to others, but I wonder if I actually do but have not been conscious of it? I do know that I have always made it a conscious habit not to compare what I look like to other people; because I've always known somehow that doing so only makes me feel bad about myself (which is also part of the reason I do not read magazines BTW). But now I am beginning to think that in trying to manage interpersonal relationships, I DO compare myself to others Why do I do that? Is that healthy? When is it healthy and when is it unhealthy? Is that just a mechanism we use to stay in denial? Do you think that habitually comparing somehow makes it more difficult to stay in the present moment? What other problems do you think comparing creates? Is there a snowball effect to comparing? How do I stop comparing?

Also, late in the year 2009, I began to see how I judge other people, especially alcoholics and addicts and now I am wondering if judging others is part of comparing. I became very judgmental of addicts when I first got into Recovery all those years ago, and I believe I did that so that I could extricate myself from a very sick and volatile relationship with an addict. So, I see how comparing and judging can serve a healthy purpose to get you out of a situation you for some reason are otherwise unable to get out of, but I think I must have gotten stuck in it permanently somehow? How do I stop judging? How do I even know when I am judging in the first place? If I have been judging addicts all this time, how come I have never felt "better than" them? Because isn't judging just a feeling of being better than other people? OK, now I am really confusing myself

coffeedrinker

i guess i think that comparing and judging are very closely related. you don't "feel better than them" because you have different baggage that weighs down your self esteem. (?) yet, i do think that this comparing thing, begin aghast at other people's off-the-chart behavior, questioning how they can be so out there, is a form of it. however! one thing about judging is that it can lead us, as a society or individuals, to make changes when they are warranted. (example: if this woman was leaving her 2-year-old in the car, or at home alone, then you could judge that to be dangerous and contact the authorities - a good judgement for you to make)

bottom line, learn, is that have processed and discovered you're heading to a place that will be wrought with difficulty for you - translation: pain. you do need to recognize that, and protect yourself. i think most, if not all, people in recovery do end up back in old places - the good news is that it sounds like you are recognizing this before it happens. you are in a slippery place.

Freedom1990

Personally I choose not to get myself involved anymore with people who have huge unresolved issues in their lives, including someone's STBXH (which is exactly what my ex-fiance was in addition to being a dry drunk).

I brought myself a world of hurt for many years by repeating that same mistake over and over.

LaTeeDa

Well, first I have to say that it's much easier to say this from the outside looking in.

Could it be that the lesson to be learned here has nothing to do with the addict? Maybe it has more to do with the rescuing of someone who has much trouble in their life? (The partner of the addict)

Just my thoughts.

L

tigger11

I'm on board with Freedom and LTD. It's a tough question, but why did you become involved with someone who is so deeply ensconced in a toxic, albeit ending, marriage? Why, in this post, did you barely talk about the man with whom you are in relationship? It surprised me that there was no praise of him and how valuable he is to you. Is he really worth it to you? You know you're going to have to deal third hand with this man's STBXAW, and the damage to the children at some point. Why would you choose to become involved in this kind of thing after all the hard work you've done.

I'm so sorry to ask these things of you. I imagine all you wanted to do is get close to a good man, and because of the attraction, pushed the thoughts of the addict wife aside.

I guess the bottom line question is; Is this man worth becoming involved 3rd hand with an addict/alcoholic?

Love and Hugs - we're here for you L2L!