Discussing their alcoholism - yes or no?

Old 02-18-2010, 05:16 AM
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Question Discussing their alcoholism - yes or no?

I have a question – is it ever a good idea to discuss their alcoholism with them when sober? I want us to try to be open and honest with each other and I think we need to talk about how serious the drinking is and what he is going to do about it. I’ve read conflicting ideas about this – to either never bring it up because there is no point, or do bring it up when sober and make it clear how much of a problem it is, that you’re worried and the ways they could help solve it etc. I don’t think it would be healthy in a relationship sense to ignore it and never talk about it. Even if discussing it doesn’t lead to them seeking help, surely it is an issue in a relationship like any other and talking about it can only help? No good comes of bottling things up.

I’ve heard from RAs that it can be a good idea to discuss how worried you are etc with them after a drinking session because they are more receptive then and the information could get through to make them get help.

I intend on having another discussion with my ABF (which he has agreed to) where I want to talk openly about the extent and progression of his drinking, the lying to me and what help he is going to look for. I want to treat it like any other problem in a relationship and try to talk it through sensibly. I also want to make it clear to him that he doesn’t have a unlimited time in which to seek out and start recovery – I don’t think he fully understands that at some point I will end the relationship if there is no improvement, and with every lie and promise broken our relationship is eroded and eventually there wont be much left. I’m not trying to force him into doing something – just make it clear that it is his choice – but if he chooses not to I wont be around anymore.
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Old 02-18-2010, 05:20 AM
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If you're intent on doing it, go ahead. Don't expect it to make any difference, though. After all this time, he knows how you feel. The time for talking has long passed. Talk is just talk. Now is the time for action, on your part.
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Old 02-18-2010, 05:21 AM
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Can you remain calm while do so??
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:14 AM
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I’ve heard from RAs that it can be a good idea to discuss how worried you are etc with them after a drinking session because they are more receptive then and the information could get through to make them get help.
This sounds like behavior modification. Still trying to get him to see the light and change him. I did this too and it resulted in more promises, crying from him and me thinking that things will be okay now. The lies increased and I was spinning my wheels more trying to understand what was going on.

I intend on having another discussion with my ABF (which he has agreed to) where I want to talk openly about the extent and progression of his drinking, the lying to me and what help he is going to look for. I want to treat it like any other problem in a relationship and try to talk it through sensibly. I also want to make it clear to him that he doesn’t have a unlimited time in which to seek out and start recovery – I don’t think he fully understands that at some point I will end the relationship if there is no improvement,
We all need to try what works for us. I chose not to listen to others years ago. They were correct about my ex, but I didn't want to believe it. I thought that we might be different. I hope that you find what you are looking for. From my experience, the A already knows where you stand. He wants what he wants and will work you to get it. When we stay engaged with a sick person and continue to try to rationalize with them, we drive ourselves crazy. Again, he is sick. That is just the way it is. Not bad or good, just reality. Alcoholism isn't a relationship problem that you just work through. It is his to deal with. He right now is choosing not to. Continuing to engage him after you have said that his lying is unacceptable sends him the message that you will put up with anything. Your word looses value when you don't uphold a boundary. In a weird way it is like the A who lies about never drinking again. His words loose believability. ACTIONS speak louder than words.

Is there another way other than having a converation to establish your boundaries, since he already know them (I think)? Maybe enforcing them with actions?
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:25 AM
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iwc,

Is it posssible for you to leave the man alone?

He knows what treatments are available.
He knows you think his drinking is the cause of your relationship troubles.
He knows that you are worried about the combination of alcohol and depression.
He knows that you will continue to threaten to leave, but not follow through.
He already knows all this because you have already told him.

Why are you so intent on changing another person?

He does get to be who he wants to be. He loves drinking. It's his #1 priority.
That is his choice, dearest.

All YOU get to decide is what you want in your life.
You don't get to make him into it.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by stella27 View Post
iwc,

Is it posssible for you to leave the man alone?

He knows what treatments are available.
He knows you think his drinking is the cause of your relationship troubles.
He knows that you are worried about the combination of alcohol and depression.
He knows that you will continue to threaten to leave, but not follow through.
He already knows all this because you have already told him.

Why are you so intent on changing another person?

He does get to be who he wants to be. He loves drinking. It's his #1 priority.
That is his choice, dearest.

All YOU get to decide is what you want in your life.
You don't get to make him into it.
Stella...

wow, thank you for posting that! It's almost as if you were talking to me!
I did all of those things. We talked, we yelled, ..or maybe I talked, and I yelled. I threatened to leave, I wanted him to change.

You cannot change anyone except yourself. I finally had enough, and I left my A on Feb 5th.

What happens to him, is now up to him. He can no longer place ANY blame on me. I am no longer there to stop him from being 'the man he wants to be'. I have to let go, and let God. SOOO much easier said than done, but everyday is a work in progress!

I am thankful to have found this forum!
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by iwantcontrol View Post
I have a question – is it ever a good idea to discuss their alcoholism with them when sober?.
I will answer your question as one of them.

Would it have been a good idea to discuss my active alcoholism with me while I was sober?

Only if I initiated the conversation and was sincerely hoping to find a solution. If I did not initiate the conversation, I would cut you off and remind you to keep your nose out of my business. I actually did that when someone asked me if I thought my drinking was a problem.

Play the tape forward on having another conversation with your A about his drinking. What results do you hope to get? What results will you likely get based on past behavior?

I agree with this:
No good comes of bottling things up.

There are healthy ways to express your feelings: Alanon, SR and therapy are healthy ways to express your feelings and get support.

I don’t think it would be healthy in a relationship sense to ignore it and never talk about it. Even if discussing it doesn’t lead to them seeking help, surely it is an issue in a relationship like any other and talking about it can only help?
A relationship with an active addict is not like any other relationship. Normal healthy ways of expression are not part of a relationship between active addicts and their loved ones. The pattern of expression (in addiction relationships) includes lying, manipulation, denial and drama by both partners, in my experience.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:44 AM
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iwant,

i can't remember details about your sitch, but this is what i think:

yes, remaining calm and respectful is a must.

should you have this discussion? i vote a loud yes, and here's why --
while it is true that one such talk very (very very) likely won't have him doing a turnaround tomorrow (as many have said, he already knows this is a problem), the
more he gets the message that this thing is more than just an annoyance, more than
just an occasional problem, but it's ruining his life, the more likely he will, one day, fix it. and often times we, the "co" feel really compelled to try and help, fix, support, these ones that we love. some of what we do is clearly unhealthy and not helpful, but we sorta need to try and do what we can.
and then stop.
and then let it go.
knowing that we had our say and did what we could.

where we really get into trouble, imo, is when we don't recognize when to stop, when to pull that support and leave them to either figure it out or not.

i think that because so many of us have had such bad experiences, often times our first inclination is to tell others to turn tail when the signs reveal the alcoholism. we wanna protect others from the craziness and the pain. we know how bad the odds are. but, i also know of times when a loved one was given an ultimatum, a confrontation, whatever you wanna call it, and it did come at the wrong time, and the addict did see the pain he/she was causing everyone, and that was the time the decision was made. i can't remember anything in your recent posts to indicate your guy is at this point, but if you have your say, and the drinking doesn't stop - with other changes as well - then you'll know. he will have made his decision, based on what he knows he will lose, and you'll have to live with it.

last thought --
many years ago i had a plan. i had come to understand that my husband was alcoholic. the next time he went on a bender, i was going to spring into action. i picked him up at the polic station - he looked sick, pathetic, and broken. the officer told me he had been crying and was despondent. after several hours, phone calls to rehabs, and friends in touch to support me, i sat him down and said "this is what i'd like to have happen." he was agreeable, and the next morning i dropped him off at a place and picked him up 30 days later. we each had a new lease on life.

unfortunately, for me, our children, and himself, it didn't stick.

best to you,
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:45 AM
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iwc,

What are your expectations with such a conversation? This is the crux of the question. What are you expecting to change as a result of having it?

If you truly have no expectations, then I believe in most relationships it is fine to be candid about one's feelings.

I can sense that you think this will be some sort of magic bullet though - we often try to drive home the point multiple times, thinking that the reason why they haven't stopped drinking is because they haven't heard us. It's the equivalent of shouting in a deaf person's face.

Part of the conversation, as you state it above, will be that his drinking is having and will have serious repercussions for your relationship.

But is that true? It appears that no matter what he does, you will still stay...this is what you've taught him. There are no repercussions other than a day off here or there.

He has already told you in very exact and precise language that he intends to continue drinking.

So.....unsure of whether this sort of conversation will have the desired effect, but since I've never been one to withhold information in relationships, I can't be the one to say "No! Don't tell him what you're feeling."
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Old 02-18-2010, 07:29 AM
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thanks everyone, i will take all your opinions on board. he actually said the other day we need to talk about it so i will hope he'll bring it up himself. If not i will probably tell him how i feel again and leave him to think about that next week. I realise he probably think i'll stay no matter what - but that really isn't true. at some point i know i will have enough and there will be no going back - i need him to know what he's going to lose.
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Old 02-18-2010, 08:41 AM
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from my own experience IWC, I had that conversation many times. I felt somehow that if he wasn't understanding what I was saying then I just hadn't found the right way to say it yet, the one that he could connect with, that he could understand. The fault obviously lay with my communication skills.

It didn't: he knew/knows what was wrong, and it wouldn't have been neccessary in a healthy relationship to discuss or even mention this more than twice tops. In fact in a healthy relationship, he'd have figured after learning what he did, that he had to change his behaviour because he would never have wanted to repeat it.

and there was me being open and honest and trying to keep communication lines open and understanding that people weren't perfect and are allowed to make mistakes and all manner of other "concepts" that I'd read/heard applied to healthy relationships. I was like a child parotting these "concepts" at a dog, and expecting a sane human response out of them. I couldn't make my relationship healthy by acting as if it was.

My A wants/needs to drink, he would react in whatever way he subconciously? felt was most likely to get him off of the hook in the short-term. So sometimes he was receptive, he agreed with me wholeheartedly, sometimes he felt that I was making to much of it, sometimes he denied there was any problem at all, sometimes he was angry, aggressive, sometimes dismissive, sometimes hurt, devastated, sometimes depressed at how awful he was having to ring many people and tell them how awful he was, each one bolstering him that he wasn't that bad. Sometimes he swore to cut down/only drink in the evenings/give up, tomorrow/on friday/after the weekend, often whilst chugging down some cider, and I SWEAR he meant it. Lies, hiding drinking, hiding bottles, shame, hurt anger all followed.

If he ever made it 2 days without alcohol I would be astonished.

Maybe I had to try all of that to understand that truely nothing would change him, but I also know that of the 4 "serious" relationships I have had in my life, I have ended every one. Each time waiting for years (years!!) after I was consistently miserable within it.

Do you know what you want in a relationship partner?

I have never defined it, I end up going out with people because I find them attractive, and somehow we end up bonded, I don't choose/assess whether my needs/wants are being fulfilled, I am passive, and when they repeatedly don't fulfill my hidden expectations of a partner, instead of calling it quits I a) try and convinve myself that I have unreasonable needs and expectations and move my lines in the sand and at the same time b) try and explain them into changing into someone completely different (plus I need them to be happy about that change LOL!).

This might well not be your experience, but it has been mine.
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Old 02-18-2010, 10:06 AM
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BWAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Okay, sorry. It's a can-o-worms.
First off, I want to say, JenT, your post moved me. It was SO to the heart. So real. So my experience. Deep. Thank you for that. It's a keeper.

Iwant - I can give you my experience.
My AH's drinking was very covert. He drank "normally" around me. He did a lot of hiding. He did not show any signs of devolving - he's responsible, kind, gentle, etc.

When I finally realized he was drinking a ton and hiding it, I told him.
It is important to say that after I saw the empties, I reviewed my relationship and realized I had been in denial about the signs and my husband's capability to lie to me. I began to see that there was a panoply of things that we did not talk about because he freaked out if I went near them *and* I was complicit and left them alone. I saw his drinking as another thing I was complicit in ignoring and the denial had to stop.

So, I screwed up my courage (it took a ton) and laid it all out. All the red flags I saw, the behaviors I saw, my participation, and what I wanted (counseling or AA for him).

He did all the standards - minimize, deny, distract, blame shift, curse, yell, be "devastated at my character bashing", said I wasn't letting him be human, etc. etc. He eventually left, saying the relationship was over...and came back 2 days later like nothing happened. (You can read all this in my early posts - and people's replies)

We then entered a period of 3 months of me reeling, him alternating being AWFUL - grumpy, sullen, depressed, sarcastic, fatalistic, and being normal.

He said he'd quit that first night (just to please me and/or get me off his back) and later said he didn't want to quit. He is now 100% underground. Still drinking, but no alcohol in the house or drinking in my presence.

We're pretty stalemated now. Distant. Can't talk without a quick shut down from him. He's convinced it is ruined. He sees no hope.

What I have changed is I am speaking about my needs. What I want from that talk and what I want in our relationship.

I am getting totally stonewalled.

My husband insists that I have dealt a fatal blow to our relationship by being so hurtful that night. He is sure I don't love him, in fact I hate him, and want to get out. (Quack quack quack)

That hurts deeply.

Nonetheless, I am happy I talked to him. Why?

The good thing I got out of this is that I got to see this yuck.
See, I didn't deal with this side of him because I pleased him (in the past). I let be what he wanted to avoid, even if it was important to me. So, everything was good. Now, I am a stand for my needs mattering and it has UPSET THE APPLE CART!
But I am USING that to see the whole of this relationship.
And I'm not backing down on my needs mattering.
And it is pushing us towards ending our relationship (which sucks eggs!).
But it is real. What I see it REAL. Not denial. And that gives me a sense of freedom (in the midst of my depression at the whole state of affairs).

So, there you go. HE has not changed from "the talk".
If I were to do it again, I would consider doing a "real" intervention (like the TV show) with all the friends and family. It might have reached him...but then again...

Good luck.

w
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Old 02-18-2010, 11:06 AM
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is it ever a good idea to discuss their alcoholism with them when sober?
Yes, absolutely.
(with the caveat that YOU are the only one who can EVER decide whether or not it is SAFE, i.e., if you are placing yourself in danger of physical harm).
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:40 PM
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What other choice is there? Ignoring the elephant in the room? Walking around on eggshells, hoping it will go away by itself? I think all you can do is make clear and honest statements about what you see and what your boundaries are. Then he'll do what he's going to do and you will do what you need to do. It does reach a point where everything has been said and then all that's left to do is take care of yourself.
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Old 02-18-2010, 03:22 PM
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Talking to the elephant doesn't make it go away. It only encourages it.

What are your boundaries? Why not focus on your issues and the changes you are going to make in your life so that you can achieve your personal goals and find happiness from within? I'm thinking he knows the deal. He knows what to do. Talk is cheap and pointless if you just end up repeating yourself over and over and over.
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:54 PM
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You can talk until you are blue in the face.

The truth of the matter is: Nothing Changes if NOTHING CHANGES.
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Old 02-19-2010, 05:32 AM
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I would talk to my boyfriend when he was sober, he was really receptive but he was ready to quit all on his own. I would get on him about so many other things, his drinking was never the main one.
He was just really ready to quit
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Old 02-19-2010, 05:54 AM
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how can you tell (apart from the obvious and actually doing something!) when they are really ready to quit and not just BS-ing?
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Old 02-19-2010, 06:02 AM
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Have you gone to Al-Anon yet? Why are you looking for signs that HE is working on HIS recovery when you are not taking the initiative to work on your own?
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Old 02-19-2010, 06:07 AM
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i am working on my own issues, but i'm after some advice on this issue as well.
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