Boundaries, Judgment and Other People
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
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Boundaries, Judgment and Other People
JenT1968's post on the "Is it possible to be wrong" thread made me think of this so thanks for sharing JenT.
I don't know if this is a characteristic of codependence, of an Adult child of an alcoholic, or just me, but even after all this time sober and working on Me, I think I still do not know what I want, or don't want, or both, most of the time.
...Or maybe it is that I still believe, somewhere in my unconcscious, that what I want doesn't matter? ...
Assuming it is that I do not know what I want... perhaps the not knowing keeps me just going along with the status quo, letting nearly anyone in who wants to come in, and THEN deciding whether or not I want them to stay. That, of course, requires I then get them out of my life, which is MUCH easier for me than it used to be but this makes me think that I need to do some more boundary work?
...Or am I just a pushover? ... Or perhaps it is that I am too passive? ...
Maybe I need to learn how to decide what I want BEFORE letting a person close to me? But then how can you truly get to know someone if you do not let them get close enough? And if you almost immediately size someone up and reject them from coming into your life before they've had a chance to show their truth, does that make you Judgmental?
And why do I always say, "I don't judge others"? I wonder why that is so important to me. Is that from growing up in an alcoholic home?
Some people I KNOW before I let them close that I don't want to be associated with them (I think because they give me a bad feeling). But other people I cannot tell until after I have gotten to know them better. I wonder what is healthy in this regard?
Any insight or feedback would be appreciated. Thanks.
I don't know if this is a characteristic of codependence, of an Adult child of an alcoholic, or just me, but even after all this time sober and working on Me, I think I still do not know what I want, or don't want, or both, most of the time.
...Or maybe it is that I still believe, somewhere in my unconcscious, that what I want doesn't matter? ...
Assuming it is that I do not know what I want... perhaps the not knowing keeps me just going along with the status quo, letting nearly anyone in who wants to come in, and THEN deciding whether or not I want them to stay. That, of course, requires I then get them out of my life, which is MUCH easier for me than it used to be but this makes me think that I need to do some more boundary work?
...Or am I just a pushover? ... Or perhaps it is that I am too passive? ...
Maybe I need to learn how to decide what I want BEFORE letting a person close to me? But then how can you truly get to know someone if you do not let them get close enough? And if you almost immediately size someone up and reject them from coming into your life before they've had a chance to show their truth, does that make you Judgmental?
And why do I always say, "I don't judge others"? I wonder why that is so important to me. Is that from growing up in an alcoholic home?
Some people I KNOW before I let them close that I don't want to be associated with them (I think because they give me a bad feeling). But other people I cannot tell until after I have gotten to know them better. I wonder what is healthy in this regard?
Any insight or feedback would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
Originally Posted by Learn2Live 
Assuming it is that I do not know what I want... perhaps the not knowing keeps me just going along with the status quo, letting nearly anyone in who wants to come in, and THEN deciding whether or not I want them to stay. That, of course, requires I then get them out of my life, which is MUCH easier for me than it used to be but this makes me think that I need to do some more boundary work?
And if you almost immediately size someone up and reject them from coming into your life before they've had a chance to show their truth, does that make you Judgmental?
And why do I always say, "I don't judge others"? I wonder why that is so important to me. Is that from growing up in an alcoholic home?
I am working on allowing myself to be wherever I am. I am here right now, which is seeing the yuck and gathering resources to make change when I'm ready.
You might want to tell yourself you don't have to take action on what you find are your feelings/wants, which might help ease you down the road of self understanding.
About judgementalism - can you size someone up and then reject them immediately as unsafe? Yes! I love how you capitalized Judgemental. It gives it the weight it seems you feel it has. I would hazard a guess that judgementalism is part of your shadow side. Meaning the opposite of a trait you admire in yourself and something you push away or "judge"
as bad. Something in yourself you deny. (google the author Debbie Ford to learn more about Shadow Work.) When we deny our shadow, it dominates us. We attract people that have that trait around us. We fear it or demonize it. But really, shadow traits are strenghts turned up too high. Judgementalism is a wonderful skill. It allowed humans to judge whether to eat the red berries or not (and die or not), it allowed us to make all the decisions for survival. It allows us to self care and weed out things that are threatening. Consider embracing this trait.
Also consider that you have the opportunity to choose to walk away from someone at any point. Meaning you may get a bad vibe straight away, or 10 years later, and there is no "wrong" choice. All we can do is make choices based on the information we have *right now*. So, if years later you feel weird, you still have permission to let go (without being a judgmental baddie!).
For fun and illustration the a point - get a pen and paper.
A Debbie Ford Shadow Exercise
1. Write down your best characteristic.
2. Write down the opposite of that, in one word.
3. Do you notice
a. that you collect others with this trait?
b. that you demonize this trait as BAD?
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I, too, think you a wise woman, and clearly you have done a lot of analyzing to get where you are today. So I feel worthy to only speak about one thing you mentioned.
Judgement gets a bad rap - probably because of Jesus.
I like to distinguish between the kinds of judgement we use.
* Light turns yellow - I have to judge whether to continue, or stop.
* I see someone behave in a way that I don't care for, or value. I make
the judgement that I don't like that.
* I judge a person as being faulty, "less than". This, IMO, is THE ONLY judgement that
we should try and avoid. It's along the lines of "..there but for the grace of God go I".
Separate the bad behavior (it's ok to not like the way other people live) from the
human soul that dwells inside.
Judgement gets a bad rap - probably because of Jesus.
I like to distinguish between the kinds of judgement we use.
* Light turns yellow - I have to judge whether to continue, or stop.
* I see someone behave in a way that I don't care for, or value. I make
the judgement that I don't like that.
* I judge a person as being faulty, "less than". This, IMO, is THE ONLY judgement that
we should try and avoid. It's along the lines of "..there but for the grace of God go I".
Separate the bad behavior (it's ok to not like the way other people live) from the
human soul that dwells inside.
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
WOW! Thank you! So much to think about here. Thanks for sharing these perspectives and thanks also for the compliments BIG SMILE 
I'm glad that something I share can be of even the smallest help to someone else too.
I feel weird reading both of your posts because honestly, I am not yet able to wrap my head around what either of you are relating to me. I have to read both your posts a couple more times. It is very exciting!
I'm glad that something I share can be of even the smallest help to someone else too.I feel weird reading both of your posts because honestly, I am not yet able to wrap my head around what either of you are relating to me. I have to read both your posts a couple more times. It is very exciting!
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
First, I want to say thanks to Coffeedrinker for the concise definitions of judgment. I think some of the discussions on that subject I have been involved in have turned into miscommunication due to semantics. So I appreciate the clarification.
Now, L2L, I hope you will excuse me for reading between the lines, and allow that I may be way off base here, but here's what I got from your post.
I think that this is not the problem:
But this is:
In other words, what I am getting here is that you wish it was easier/quicker to figure out which people belong in your life and which don't, because you find it difficult to make and enforce those decisions?
Sometimes, you just don't know immediately if someone in your life belongs there or not. It takes time to figure it out. And sometimes, people enhance our lives for a period of time, and then things change. I don't think it's about "not knowing what you want." I think it's about not wanting to tell someone when the relationship is no longer working for you.
Like I said, I could be way off, but that's the sense I got when I read this.
L
Now, L2L, I hope you will excuse me for reading between the lines, and allow that I may be way off base here, but here's what I got from your post.
I think that this is not the problem:
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
Assuming it is that I do not know what I want... perhaps the not knowing keeps me just going along with the status quo, letting nearly anyone in who wants to come in, and
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
THEN deciding whether or not I want them to stay. That, of course, requires I then get them out of my life, which is MUCH easier for me than it used to be but this makes me think that I need to do some more boundary work?
Sometimes, you just don't know immediately if someone in your life belongs there or not. It takes time to figure it out. And sometimes, people enhance our lives for a period of time, and then things change. I don't think it's about "not knowing what you want." I think it's about not wanting to tell someone when the relationship is no longer working for you.
Like I said, I could be way off, but that's the sense I got when I read this.
L
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,888
What I've learned:
We cannot see past the choices we haven't yet made. How can you know what you want or what you need until you've experienced new things? How can you control who comes into your life and who doesn't? You have to make the healthy decisions for yourself when the choice is presented and not before.
I've had to learn to give up more control than I ever thought I would. I have to let life take me where it will before I decide whether it's working for me or whether I need to push my wagon down another street.
I was never certain of the path I would take once I left XABF, but I was certain of things I didn't want. Well, I can tell you that much of what I didn't want actually happened and before I knew it I was in a living situation that I was sure would never be good for me. I admit I was wrong. I've learned more than I thought I would. I'm more content than I thought I'd be. I'm making more progress that I would ever have made if I stayed where I had been.
As for the folks who come and go from our lives, I agree with LaTeeDa, some come and go quickly, others grow on you over time. Some prove themselves and earn trust over time, some betray trust seemingly as soon as it's given to them. Whether to trust or not, whether to let people in or not is not an answer you find in the people you meet. It's an answer that lies within you. When your personal boundaries are strong and present from the start there is far less confusion for you. You can never truly predict how someone else will act, but when you're secure in what is healthy and unhealthy for you, you can keep the relationships that work and let go of those that don't.
Alice
We cannot see past the choices we haven't yet made. How can you know what you want or what you need until you've experienced new things? How can you control who comes into your life and who doesn't? You have to make the healthy decisions for yourself when the choice is presented and not before.
I've had to learn to give up more control than I ever thought I would. I have to let life take me where it will before I decide whether it's working for me or whether I need to push my wagon down another street.
I was never certain of the path I would take once I left XABF, but I was certain of things I didn't want. Well, I can tell you that much of what I didn't want actually happened and before I knew it I was in a living situation that I was sure would never be good for me. I admit I was wrong. I've learned more than I thought I would. I'm more content than I thought I'd be. I'm making more progress that I would ever have made if I stayed where I had been.
As for the folks who come and go from our lives, I agree with LaTeeDa, some come and go quickly, others grow on you over time. Some prove themselves and earn trust over time, some betray trust seemingly as soon as it's given to them. Whether to trust or not, whether to let people in or not is not an answer you find in the people you meet. It's an answer that lies within you. When your personal boundaries are strong and present from the start there is far less confusion for you. You can never truly predict how someone else will act, but when you're secure in what is healthy and unhealthy for you, you can keep the relationships that work and let go of those that don't.
Alice
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
I think I am just afraid of hurting other people's feelings by rejecting them. I think I have no clue how to tactfully or gently do that. Especially after I have gotten close to them.
I tend to be all-or-nothing and have weak physical boundaries. If you are my friend, I treat you like a best friend. I baby you or take care of you or help you (whether you ask or not), or protect you or stand up for you. If you are not my friend, it is as though you do not exist. I ignore you or become annoyed by you. If I am comfortable with you, I am physically open with you. If I am not comfortable with you, I am physically closed with you. Black or white. On or off. No in-between. How do I find the in-between?
I think back to some of the relationships I have gotten into and wonder what in the world ever occurred that I let those men into my life in the first place? I think these men had certain kinds of problems in their lives and I saw clearly how they could be fixed. Am I just always so bored with my boring, simple, uncomplicated life that I have welcomed and continue to welcome opportunity to work on these kinds of things for others?
Time and again, I just take whatever measures are needed to be taken to fix whatever problem I think needs to be fixed. I evaluate what is going on with the other person and then I just do whatever needs to be done. Nevermind that (1) it's not my place and (2) they are grown men completely capable of doing these things themselves.
I'm talking practical things like they moved into a basement apartment and needed to outfit it, organize it, or pretty it up; so I went shopping and bought apartment stuff and furniture. Or I saw their strengths and just knew that what they needed to do was go to college and major in something-or-another; so I got information and pamphlets or whatever and encouraged them to do that. Or they had outstanding debt that was causing them stress; so I paid the debts off. Or they needed a car and wouldn't take the necessary steps toward buying one; so I bought one for them. Or they had a legal problem and I knew how to address that; so I helped them figure out what to do, or asked a lawyer friend questions, or asked them to take on the case. Or I think they are unorganized which must be causing them to be unable to think clearly and THAT'S why they're running into problems; so I clean their room.
Little Miss Problem Solver. Efficient and Effective. Bring me any problem; anything at all. Better yet, just bring me someone else, it doesn't even matter if they are AWARE that they have a problem. I'll watch them for a week or two and figure out JUST WHAT THEIR PROBLEMS ARE and tell them how to fix them. Even better yet, I will just go ahead and take care of some of those things for them.
To be honest though, a big part of it too is that I get SICK OF HEARING the person complain or talk about the problem time and time again, because I TELL them how to fix the problem and instead of fixing it, they just keep talking and complaining about it. So then I just get fed-up and do it myself.
I think I was once accused of taking people on as projects. I don't know whether or not that is my truth. I don't think it has anything to do with wanting a PERSON as a project. What I do know is that I sacrifice myself and use my own resources, without even evaluating whether or not I can AFFORD to use my own resources to take care of other people's responsibilities, without even asking if they want me to, and without even discussing whether or not they are expected to pay me back. I just do these things and expect that, as any normal, rational, responsible human being would, they WILL pay me back and they WILL treat me with the same love, caring and respect as I have treated them.
.....Good Lord. Can all of this really be true? How is it I have ignored this or denied this for so long? What ELSE have I missed or ignored or denied along the way? Can't somebody please just tell me ALL of it at once so I can accept and take care of everything I need to take care of in order to have that great life in my future? And why in the hell did it take until age 42 for me to be able to see this and understand it?.....
But it's not ENTIRELY that I take men on as projects. I also am interested in them, they make me smile or laugh or both, we have some things in common, I enjoy doing things with them, and/or I am physically attracted to them, etc. It's not like I only wanted them in my life in order to take care of their problems. It's that I see something in the beginning that attracts me to them, but somehow within a couple weeks, I am super-wrapped-up in them and their lives and busy trying to fix things.
Also, some people that I allow into my life, I want to be with but I think somehow I get too close, or draw them too far in, without knowing whether or not we are compatible. I tolerate them until I am so inconvenienced and annoyed, that I become agitated, frustrated, and/or angry. And I don't mean that I become annoyed or angry because of what responsibilities I took care of for them. I mean that I become annoyed or angry for how they are inconveniencing me in my life because their lifestyle and/or decisions, etc don't jive with mine. Or because they are so irresponsible that it creates more work for me. So I either turn into a big complainer and complain to everyone what that person is doing that is agitating, frustrating and/or angering me, or I lash out in anger.
Does any of this sound familiar to anyone else?
Thanks for listening.
I tend to be all-or-nothing and have weak physical boundaries. If you are my friend, I treat you like a best friend. I baby you or take care of you or help you (whether you ask or not), or protect you or stand up for you. If you are not my friend, it is as though you do not exist. I ignore you or become annoyed by you. If I am comfortable with you, I am physically open with you. If I am not comfortable with you, I am physically closed with you. Black or white. On or off. No in-between. How do I find the in-between?
I think back to some of the relationships I have gotten into and wonder what in the world ever occurred that I let those men into my life in the first place? I think these men had certain kinds of problems in their lives and I saw clearly how they could be fixed. Am I just always so bored with my boring, simple, uncomplicated life that I have welcomed and continue to welcome opportunity to work on these kinds of things for others?
Time and again, I just take whatever measures are needed to be taken to fix whatever problem I think needs to be fixed. I evaluate what is going on with the other person and then I just do whatever needs to be done. Nevermind that (1) it's not my place and (2) they are grown men completely capable of doing these things themselves.
I'm talking practical things like they moved into a basement apartment and needed to outfit it, organize it, or pretty it up; so I went shopping and bought apartment stuff and furniture. Or I saw their strengths and just knew that what they needed to do was go to college and major in something-or-another; so I got information and pamphlets or whatever and encouraged them to do that. Or they had outstanding debt that was causing them stress; so I paid the debts off. Or they needed a car and wouldn't take the necessary steps toward buying one; so I bought one for them. Or they had a legal problem and I knew how to address that; so I helped them figure out what to do, or asked a lawyer friend questions, or asked them to take on the case. Or I think they are unorganized which must be causing them to be unable to think clearly and THAT'S why they're running into problems; so I clean their room.
Little Miss Problem Solver. Efficient and Effective. Bring me any problem; anything at all. Better yet, just bring me someone else, it doesn't even matter if they are AWARE that they have a problem. I'll watch them for a week or two and figure out JUST WHAT THEIR PROBLEMS ARE and tell them how to fix them. Even better yet, I will just go ahead and take care of some of those things for them.
To be honest though, a big part of it too is that I get SICK OF HEARING the person complain or talk about the problem time and time again, because I TELL them how to fix the problem and instead of fixing it, they just keep talking and complaining about it. So then I just get fed-up and do it myself.
I think I was once accused of taking people on as projects. I don't know whether or not that is my truth. I don't think it has anything to do with wanting a PERSON as a project. What I do know is that I sacrifice myself and use my own resources, without even evaluating whether or not I can AFFORD to use my own resources to take care of other people's responsibilities, without even asking if they want me to, and without even discussing whether or not they are expected to pay me back. I just do these things and expect that, as any normal, rational, responsible human being would, they WILL pay me back and they WILL treat me with the same love, caring and respect as I have treated them.
.....Good Lord. Can all of this really be true? How is it I have ignored this or denied this for so long? What ELSE have I missed or ignored or denied along the way? Can't somebody please just tell me ALL of it at once so I can accept and take care of everything I need to take care of in order to have that great life in my future? And why in the hell did it take until age 42 for me to be able to see this and understand it?.....
But it's not ENTIRELY that I take men on as projects. I also am interested in them, they make me smile or laugh or both, we have some things in common, I enjoy doing things with them, and/or I am physically attracted to them, etc. It's not like I only wanted them in my life in order to take care of their problems. It's that I see something in the beginning that attracts me to them, but somehow within a couple weeks, I am super-wrapped-up in them and their lives and busy trying to fix things.
Also, some people that I allow into my life, I want to be with but I think somehow I get too close, or draw them too far in, without knowing whether or not we are compatible. I tolerate them until I am so inconvenienced and annoyed, that I become agitated, frustrated, and/or angry. And I don't mean that I become annoyed or angry because of what responsibilities I took care of for them. I mean that I become annoyed or angry for how they are inconveniencing me in my life because their lifestyle and/or decisions, etc don't jive with mine. Or because they are so irresponsible that it creates more work for me. So I either turn into a big complainer and complain to everyone what that person is doing that is agitating, frustrating and/or angering me, or I lash out in anger.
Does any of this sound familiar to anyone else?
Thanks for listening.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
What I do know is that I sacrifice myself and use my own resources, without even evaluating whether or not I can AFFORD to use my own resources to take care of other people's responsibilities, without even asking if they want me to, and without even discussing whether or not they are expected to pay me back. I just do these things and expect that, as any normal, rational, responsible human being would, they WILL pay me back and they WILL treat me with the same love, caring and respect as I have treated them.
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
.....Good Lord. Can all of this really be true? How is it I have ignored this or denied this for so long? What ELSE have I missed or ignored or denied along the way? Can't somebody please just tell me ALL of it at once so I can accept and take care of everything I need to take care of in order to have that great life in my future? And why in the hell did it take until age 42 for me to be able to see this and understand it?.....
It's because I am looking for something that I will never get from outside.
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
But it's not ENTIRELY that I take men on as projects. I also am interested in them, they make me smile or laugh or both, we have some things in common, I enjoy doing things with them, and/or I am physically attracted to them, etc. It's not like I only wanted them in my life in order to take care of their problems. It's that I see something in the beginning that attracts me to them, but somehow within a couple weeks, I am super-wrapped-up in them and their lives and busy trying to fix things.
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
Also, some people that I allow into my life, I want to be with but I think somehow I get too close, or draw them too far in, without knowing whether or not we are compatible. I tolerate them until I am so inconvenienced and annoyed, that I become agitated, frustrated, and/or angry. And I don't mean that I become annoyed or angry because of what responsibilities I took care of for them. I mean that I become annoyed or angry for how they are inconveniencing me in my life because their lifestyle and/or decisions, etc don't jive with mine. Or because they are so irresponsible that it creates more work for me. So I either turn into a big complainer and complain to everyone what that person is doing that is agitating, frustrating and/or angering me, or I lash out in anger.
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
Does any of this sound familiar to anyone else?
L
Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 61
L2L,
...Couple things: first, it seems to me this tendency to be a "people developer" is a strength (yes, it IS a strength--more on that in a bit) that particularly draws you to help men as opposed to women, more often than not? I think that might be significant in and of itself--why men and not so much women?--if I have drawn a correct conclusion...I noticed this in my own life and realized that unmet needs were drawing me to drawing me to help men (unhealthy for me) when I should be looking to share my strengths and life experiences to encourage and inspire women in similar circumstances (healthy for me). Not sure if that makes sense...
Second, I also have come to the realization that focusing on other people and their problems meets a need to feel self-satisfaction, a sense of accomplishing something, etc. in a way that reinforces wrong thinking that other people are more important/worthy than I am. It takes the focus off of me and MY life and whatever I need to be working on--a satisfying distraction, basically. And it also helps me to avoid the fear of failure. I falsely believe that when I am helping someone else, I will not--cannot fail, nevermind the fact that I am not in control of much of anything in reality! Lol. Just some food for thought...
Love,
jc
...Couple things: first, it seems to me this tendency to be a "people developer" is a strength (yes, it IS a strength--more on that in a bit) that particularly draws you to help men as opposed to women, more often than not? I think that might be significant in and of itself--why men and not so much women?--if I have drawn a correct conclusion...I noticed this in my own life and realized that unmet needs were drawing me to drawing me to help men (unhealthy for me) when I should be looking to share my strengths and life experiences to encourage and inspire women in similar circumstances (healthy for me). Not sure if that makes sense...
Second, I also have come to the realization that focusing on other people and their problems meets a need to feel self-satisfaction, a sense of accomplishing something, etc. in a way that reinforces wrong thinking that other people are more important/worthy than I am. It takes the focus off of me and MY life and whatever I need to be working on--a satisfying distraction, basically. And it also helps me to avoid the fear of failure. I falsely believe that when I am helping someone else, I will not--cannot fail, nevermind the fact that I am not in control of much of anything in reality! Lol. Just some food for thought...
Love,
jc
Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 61
Learn2Liven
OT--
Google "Developer" and "Strengthsfinder" and you should be able to read the description of what it means to be a "developer."
I would not be the least bit surprised if this was one of your top personal strengths!
jc
OT--
Google "Developer" and "Strengthsfinder" and you should be able to read the description of what it means to be a "developer."
I would not be the least bit surprised if this was one of your top personal strengths!
jc
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Thanks every body! 
I am reading ALL of your posts over and over again and Googling the new ideas and concepts you have introduced me to. VERY cool. Neat also to turn my problems into strengths with just a thought 
I am reading ALL of your posts over and over again and Googling the new ideas and concepts you have introduced me to. VERY cool. Neat also to turn my problems into strengths with just a thought 
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by coffeedrinker
I like to distinguish between the kinds of judgement we use.
* Light turns yellow - I have to judge whether to continue, or stop.
* I see someone behave in a way that I don't care for, or value. I make
the judgement that I don't like that.
* I judge a person as being faulty, "less than". This, IMO, is THE ONLY judgement that
we should try and avoid. It's along the lines of "..there but for the grace of God go I".
Separate the bad behavior (it's ok to not like the way other people live) from the
human soul that dwells inside.
* Light turns yellow - I have to judge whether to continue, or stop.
* I see someone behave in a way that I don't care for, or value. I make
the judgement that I don't like that.
* I judge a person as being faulty, "less than". This, IMO, is THE ONLY judgement that
we should try and avoid. It's along the lines of "..there but for the grace of God go I".
Separate the bad behavior (it's ok to not like the way other people live) from the
human soul that dwells inside.
Honest judgements are a real required process of ordinary life. Having blinders on just to voice that judgements are not worthy or should be avoided is not being forthcoming and transparent. Im not saying coffedrinker is being blind, im just stating that it requires honest self-evaluation to properley "avoid" and not just be blind to our everyday responsibilities towards consequences for anyones bad behaviours. Consequences are an important daily experience of a full and happy life for anyone.
Nothing wrong with righteous judgements.
RR
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
OK, I have to be honest here because I really want to understand and change myself wherever I need to understand or change.
I do not understand anything either coffeedrinker or robbyrobot (hahaha I LOVE that name BTW, it makes me smile) said. Can anyone help me by stating these things differently?
I think I have a hard time judging people. I think I may also have a hard time judging behaviors too. I remember asking for help on SR months ago, asking people to help me find words to describe someone's disgusting behavior. So, for instance, if I believe a behavior is "disgusting" does that mean I am judging that behavior? I think so. So the same thing would be true if I believed the person who performed the disgusting behavior was also disgusting, that is, I would be judging them. Is this true?
Maybe I am using the wrong word?? I don't look down on other people. When other people do "bad" or hurtful things, I look for the reasons why they did those things. I don't just immediately dismiss them as "less than" or not worthy or whatever. I just don't think that way. (Although I do have feelings of disgust and sometimes hatred for people who harm children or other helpless people).
Thanks.
P.S. Maybe I am just too understanding of people. Or maybe I feel sorry for them.
I do not understand anything either coffeedrinker or robbyrobot (hahaha I LOVE that name BTW, it makes me smile) said. Can anyone help me by stating these things differently?
I think I have a hard time judging people. I think I may also have a hard time judging behaviors too. I remember asking for help on SR months ago, asking people to help me find words to describe someone's disgusting behavior. So, for instance, if I believe a behavior is "disgusting" does that mean I am judging that behavior? I think so. So the same thing would be true if I believed the person who performed the disgusting behavior was also disgusting, that is, I would be judging them. Is this true?
Maybe I am using the wrong word?? I don't look down on other people. When other people do "bad" or hurtful things, I look for the reasons why they did those things. I don't just immediately dismiss them as "less than" or not worthy or whatever. I just don't think that way. (Although I do have feelings of disgust and sometimes hatred for people who harm children or other helpless people).
Thanks.
P.S. Maybe I am just too understanding of people. Or maybe I feel sorry for them.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
So, for instance, if I believe a behavior is "disgusting" does that mean I am judging that behavior? I think so. So the same thing would be true if I believed the person who performed the disgusting behavior was also disgusting, that is, I would be judging them. Is this true?
A careful process is required for charachter judgments in our society [civil and criminal courts and/or expert authorities] [God]
So the quick answer is to not confuse our personal rights and responsibilities and our societal rights and responsibilites. We must not confuse them because they each carry different consequences on peoples lives.
We all have a right to our opinions and so we can enjoy being righteous about informed judgments as long as we don't trodden over another citizen's right to be themselves in our society while we are enjoying being ourselves.
Robby
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Thank you for the feedback.
I have no problem letting go of judgment and allowing God to decide. Similarly, I also have no problem letting go of forgiveness and allowing God to decide whether or not to forgive someone else's behavior. This way, I keep my focus on MY side of the street, where my energies are better used, since I can't control anything but myself anyway.
Right now I feel so grateful to Ago for helping me come to this several months ago. He helped me to be able to see what Step Two really means. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. The way I understand it now is: In letting go and letting God be in charge of judging and forgiving others, I am able to find peace and serenity. It is not my job and therefore, there is no need for me to worry or obsess over; or be emotional or hurt about; or react to someone else's behavior
That, in turn, helps me to stay emotionally detached. Funny how that all has come together like that for me. So glad I found my Higher Power and learned Step Two. I hope you all do too.
P.S. Thanks again Ago. That Step One and Step Two conversation sure has gone a REALLY long way!
P.P.S. So maybe a faulty or missing sense of Judgment isn't my issue in allowing people to get too close. I think it must be something else. I think it is that "people and projects" thing. Maybe that is a need to control. So much to think about...
I have no problem letting go of judgment and allowing God to decide. Similarly, I also have no problem letting go of forgiveness and allowing God to decide whether or not to forgive someone else's behavior. This way, I keep my focus on MY side of the street, where my energies are better used, since I can't control anything but myself anyway.
Right now I feel so grateful to Ago for helping me come to this several months ago. He helped me to be able to see what Step Two really means. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. The way I understand it now is: In letting go and letting God be in charge of judging and forgiving others, I am able to find peace and serenity. It is not my job and therefore, there is no need for me to worry or obsess over; or be emotional or hurt about; or react to someone else's behavior
That, in turn, helps me to stay emotionally detached. Funny how that all has come together like that for me. So glad I found my Higher Power and learned Step Two. I hope you all do too. P.S. Thanks again Ago. That Step One and Step Two conversation sure has gone a REALLY long way!
P.P.S. So maybe a faulty or missing sense of Judgment isn't my issue in allowing people to get too close. I think it must be something else. I think it is that "people and projects" thing. Maybe that is a need to control. So much to think about...
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
I am so like this! I remember dragging my 26 year old bf to the furniture store and telling him the old furniture in his room HAD TO GO! LOL!
In the last 2 days, I have noticed in conversations with 2 different friends that I have asked very deep questions which stymied both of them. It made them uncomfortable and both switched subjects.
I think it is a strength of mine to ask the piercing questions, but I think it is also a form of what you are talking about - being in other people's space rather than my own.
I think, for me, there is some dysfunction there. I think I get a feeling of (oh! I feel vulnerable!) superiority from it.
Food for thought.
In the last 2 days, I have noticed in conversations with 2 different friends that I have asked very deep questions which stymied both of them. It made them uncomfortable and both switched subjects.
I think it is a strength of mine to ask the piercing questions, but I think it is also a form of what you are talking about - being in other people's space rather than my own.
I think, for me, there is some dysfunction there. I think I get a feeling of (oh! I feel vulnerable!) superiority from it.
Food for thought.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wizard Land Downunder
Posts: 2,615
I was a member of a church based world wide charitable organization some years ago, and one of the workshops was "Judgement or Discernment".
We had a merry old dance around those two words, and I fear that sometimes I am not following the discernment path, instead I am judgemental, to the point of becoming a "hanging Judge", or the Red Queen, yelling "off with their heads".
Guess that old and crotchety makes a difference to what I see, how I see and how I respond.
Lord, help me to discern your ways and come to right judgement.
God bless
We had a merry old dance around those two words, and I fear that sometimes I am not following the discernment path, instead I am judgemental, to the point of becoming a "hanging Judge", or the Red Queen, yelling "off with their heads".
Guess that old and crotchety makes a difference to what I see, how I see and how I respond.
Lord, help me to discern your ways and come to right judgement.
God bless
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
Originally Posted by Jadmack25
I was a member of a church based world wide charitable organization some years ago, and one of the workshops was "Judgement or Discernment".
We had a merry old dance around those two words, and I fear that sometimes I am not following the discernment path, instead I am judgemental, to the point of becoming a "hanging Judge", or the Red Queen, yelling "off with their heads".
Guess that old and crotchety makes a difference to what I see, how I see and how I respond.
Lord, help me to discern your ways and come to right judgement.
God bless
We had a merry old dance around those two words, and I fear that sometimes I am not following the discernment path, instead I am judgemental, to the point of becoming a "hanging Judge", or the Red Queen, yelling "off with their heads".
Guess that old and crotchety makes a difference to what I see, how I see and how I respond.
Lord, help me to discern your ways and come to right judgement.
God bless
If we are USING our judgement/discernment to justify ourselves, it doesn't come from a healthy place.
Good stuff!
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
OMGosh Jadmack THANK YOU for tying those two together for me! I don't recall having ever seeing it that way before. That makes TOTAL sense to me because I actually have been working on "discernment" for about a year now. WOW.
I think it is discernment that has been helping me to avoid people who I know I am going to be negatively influenced by. Mind you, I am not BLAMING them for any of my bad behavior; I just KNOW that when I get around certain kinds of people, I do "bad" things or things that are unhealthy. For instance, when I get around a certain person, I want to smoke. And I feel as though I can't control that urge; so I smoke. It's not her FAULT, she's not to blame, but I discern that about myself and the relationship I have with that person, and that helps me to avoid her, even when I am drawn TOWARD her. So that's as far as I have come, I think, in my work on discernment.
Thanks again for sharing everybody.
I think it is discernment that has been helping me to avoid people who I know I am going to be negatively influenced by. Mind you, I am not BLAMING them for any of my bad behavior; I just KNOW that when I get around certain kinds of people, I do "bad" things or things that are unhealthy. For instance, when I get around a certain person, I want to smoke. And I feel as though I can't control that urge; so I smoke. It's not her FAULT, she's not to blame, but I discern that about myself and the relationship I have with that person, and that helps me to avoid her, even when I am drawn TOWARD her. So that's as far as I have come, I think, in my work on discernment.
Thanks again for sharing everybody.
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
I think, for me, there is some dysfunction there. I think I get a feeling of (oh! I feel vulnerable!) superiority from it.
IDK, just trying to turn it around a bit given that I don't believe there is only one explanation for our behaviors.
It's weird how we can sense, though, when there is dysfunction in what we do.
Thanks again for sharing.
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