will he hit bottom?
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will he hit bottom?
as i've posted before, our 20 year old son has been taking his dad's pain meds and is now on his way down the path of addiction.
we cut the supply off last wed. by moving the pills off-site. he hasn't been anywhere to get anything else. so no physical withdrawels like vomiting, fevers, whatever else comes with it -- but increased depression, anxiety, cravings.
at first he admitted that it had gotten the best of him -- but he's backed off that somewhat. he's back to they're the only thing that made him feel normal (long history of depression/anxiety after trying many, many, many prescription meds)
so many people say you have to let them hit bottom if they won't accept help.
how is that going to happen to him?
we can't just give him more pills so he can get worse.
he's not behaving in a way where we would consider throwing him out or anything.
do you guys think he'll finally crave to the point he'd want to try something in the way of help? would that be a way to hit bottom?
or do the cravings finally go away?
his dad had an addiction back in the day which he overcame on his own -- he says those cravings never go away completely -- i've heard some ex-smokers say the same thing.
we cut the supply off last wed. by moving the pills off-site. he hasn't been anywhere to get anything else. so no physical withdrawels like vomiting, fevers, whatever else comes with it -- but increased depression, anxiety, cravings.
at first he admitted that it had gotten the best of him -- but he's backed off that somewhat. he's back to they're the only thing that made him feel normal (long history of depression/anxiety after trying many, many, many prescription meds)
so many people say you have to let them hit bottom if they won't accept help.
how is that going to happen to him?
we can't just give him more pills so he can get worse.
he's not behaving in a way where we would consider throwing him out or anything.
do you guys think he'll finally crave to the point he'd want to try something in the way of help? would that be a way to hit bottom?
or do the cravings finally go away?
his dad had an addiction back in the day which he overcame on his own -- he says those cravings never go away completely -- i've heard some ex-smokers say the same thing.
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((Blui)) for those of us A's who have hit bottom, we've each had our own "bottom". Heck, I didn't even know what mine WAS until I hit it.
I've got almost 3 years clean and I haven't had a craving in a long, long time. I just quit smoking...again. I hadn't "craved" a cigarette, but when I got stressed out, more than usual, yes I wanted the, I don't know what you call it, the "behavior" of smoking cigarettes? I didn't like the smell any more, really didn't much like the taste, but the action of smoking calmed me...for a short time, and now I've quit again.
So, not to hijack your thread, but that's MY experience with the drugs and cigarettes. From reading your previous thread, it sounds as if your son is convinced that the pain pills are the only thing that make him feel normal.
I think he may find his bottom without the pills..maybe be a bit more willing to get help again, when he finds you are no longer going to let him steal his dad's meds? It's hard to say, though.
I'm not that familiar with the dual diagnosis stuff, and I am sure this is very hard on you. I do know, though, that if he continues on the pain pills, addiction makes everything get worse..much, much worse.
Hugs and prayers!
Amy
I've got almost 3 years clean and I haven't had a craving in a long, long time. I just quit smoking...again. I hadn't "craved" a cigarette, but when I got stressed out, more than usual, yes I wanted the, I don't know what you call it, the "behavior" of smoking cigarettes? I didn't like the smell any more, really didn't much like the taste, but the action of smoking calmed me...for a short time, and now I've quit again.
So, not to hijack your thread, but that's MY experience with the drugs and cigarettes. From reading your previous thread, it sounds as if your son is convinced that the pain pills are the only thing that make him feel normal.
I think he may find his bottom without the pills..maybe be a bit more willing to get help again, when he finds you are no longer going to let him steal his dad's meds? It's hard to say, though.
I'm not that familiar with the dual diagnosis stuff, and I am sure this is very hard on you. I do know, though, that if he continues on the pain pills, addiction makes everything get worse..much, much worse.
Hugs and prayers!
Amy
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don't worry about hijacking -- it's helpful for me to hear different experiences.
he is convinced that it's the only thing that makes him feel normal
and what's even worse is that i think he's right -- at least he seems wonderful on them
it's just not a viable option -- i know what comes with doing more & more and we couldn't keep him in a supply even if we want to
i've been reading a lot of things about studies on suboxone & depression as well as people's experiences with it. supposedly, it has a ceiling and he can't get high off it -- maybe that would be a good compromise if he qualified to receive it.
i just don't know -- i understand that he suffers and anything that takes that away would have to be very appealing.
pretty soon there will be no pills anywhere anyway, this will be the first time he's ran out early and i know that his ortho won't refill anything early because they're tapering him down & we're in the process of transferring his case to the pain management specialist. apparently, they have to receive his records, review them, and then decide whether or not to accept him. if they don't, i guess we repeat the process with the next doctor.
he is convinced that it's the only thing that makes him feel normal
and what's even worse is that i think he's right -- at least he seems wonderful on them
it's just not a viable option -- i know what comes with doing more & more and we couldn't keep him in a supply even if we want to
i've been reading a lot of things about studies on suboxone & depression as well as people's experiences with it. supposedly, it has a ceiling and he can't get high off it -- maybe that would be a good compromise if he qualified to receive it.
i just don't know -- i understand that he suffers and anything that takes that away would have to be very appealing.
pretty soon there will be no pills anywhere anyway, this will be the first time he's ran out early and i know that his ortho won't refill anything early because they're tapering him down & we're in the process of transferring his case to the pain management specialist. apparently, they have to receive his records, review them, and then decide whether or not to accept him. if they don't, i guess we repeat the process with the next doctor.
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There's a difference between chemical dependence and addiction. It doesn't sound like your son is suffering withdrawals associated with addiction, but I'm certainly not a professional.
You mentioned before your son only leaves the house about twice a month, so I'm assuming he doesn't work or go to school? It sounds like you all are at a stalemate. He's depressed, occasionally paranoid and delusional, and the meds he's prescribed aren't helping him become a functioning member of society.
Is it time to have a conversation with his doctor, figure out if he needs inpatient/residential treatment for his mental illness? There is a chemical reason why opiates make some people feel better, and it has to do with endorphins and dopamine. The pdoc can explain it a lot better than I can and should have ideas how to treat it. Or is it time to get a second opinion?
We have a saying around here that if nothing changes, nothing changes.
You mentioned before your son only leaves the house about twice a month, so I'm assuming he doesn't work or go to school? It sounds like you all are at a stalemate. He's depressed, occasionally paranoid and delusional, and the meds he's prescribed aren't helping him become a functioning member of society.
Is it time to have a conversation with his doctor, figure out if he needs inpatient/residential treatment for his mental illness? There is a chemical reason why opiates make some people feel better, and it has to do with endorphins and dopamine. The pdoc can explain it a lot better than I can and should have ideas how to treat it. Or is it time to get a second opinion?
We have a saying around here that if nothing changes, nothing changes.
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i agree with the nothing changes part
we tried discussing it with his doctor last monday -- i asked if there was something with his brain chemistry that made it feel so good for him, more so than others. i can't take opiates, even codiene makes me sick as a dog.
he just said some stuff about how it wasn't good at all, and some people just liked to do drugs, and it was a terrible life. we didn't go into the addiction part, because i wasn't clear on it at that point -- just that he had been self-medicating and the results that he had gotten. if it was anything but an opiate, he'd have walked out of there with a script.
i'm thinking it maybe time to get a second opinion, but i hesitate to leave this doctor. my son trusts him -- which is huge. i'm allowed input -- a lot of doctors will shut the family out after 18. he will listen to my son's opinions about anything -- except for this one thing. he was hoping the new AD he gave him would make him feel better and he would lose interest in the opiate -- so was I -- it wasn't happening.
as far as inpatient goes, that has to be my son's decision. as bad as addiction is, it would be even worse if loses trust in us and goes completely psychotic and refuses treatment for that as well. some treatment is better than no treatment -- so while i agree with the nothing changes part, sometimes change can be for the worse. plus, you only get out of inpatient what you're willing to put into it -- just like everything else. if you go inpatient & refuses to cooperate, they don't force you.
i'll wait it out & let it be his decision.
we tried discussing it with his doctor last monday -- i asked if there was something with his brain chemistry that made it feel so good for him, more so than others. i can't take opiates, even codiene makes me sick as a dog.
he just said some stuff about how it wasn't good at all, and some people just liked to do drugs, and it was a terrible life. we didn't go into the addiction part, because i wasn't clear on it at that point -- just that he had been self-medicating and the results that he had gotten. if it was anything but an opiate, he'd have walked out of there with a script.
i'm thinking it maybe time to get a second opinion, but i hesitate to leave this doctor. my son trusts him -- which is huge. i'm allowed input -- a lot of doctors will shut the family out after 18. he will listen to my son's opinions about anything -- except for this one thing. he was hoping the new AD he gave him would make him feel better and he would lose interest in the opiate -- so was I -- it wasn't happening.
as far as inpatient goes, that has to be my son's decision. as bad as addiction is, it would be even worse if loses trust in us and goes completely psychotic and refuses treatment for that as well. some treatment is better than no treatment -- so while i agree with the nothing changes part, sometimes change can be for the worse. plus, you only get out of inpatient what you're willing to put into it -- just like everything else. if you go inpatient & refuses to cooperate, they don't force you.
i'll wait it out & let it be his decision.
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It's been my experience that the cravings do go away. They did for me when I dug into 12 step programs and partipated in my own recovery. Occasionally I have a fleeting thought, but that's all it is. It's there and then gone. That usually happens when I'm exceptionally stressed/tired/anxious, etc.
For me, abstinence only is not recovery, and it's a miserable way to live.
For me, abstinence only is not recovery, and it's a miserable way to live.
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yep -- i would agree -- today he is abstinant & miserable.
it's nice to here that cravings went away for you.
maybe my husband's are gone too. i don't ask him anymore because he said it was better not to, that it only made him think about it.
it's nice to here that cravings went away for you.
maybe my husband's are gone too. i don't ask him anymore because he said it was better not to, that it only made him think about it.
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I probably didn't make myself clear above, and ((Freedom)) pointed it out...my time clean THIS time, I'm in recovery and I feel much better about myself. Prior to that, and a brief relapse, I had the better part of a year clean with only abstinence, and it truly is pretty miserable.
I, too, am praying for you and your family and hope that your son becomes willing to try treatment of some kind.
Hugs and prayers!
Amy
I, too, am praying for you and your family and hope that your son becomes willing to try treatment of some kind.
Hugs and prayers!
Amy
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Originally Posted by blui 
i've been reading a lot of things about studies on suboxone & depression as well as people's experiences with it. supposedly, it has a ceiling and he can't get high off it -- maybe that would be a good compromise if he qualified to receive it.
The thing about suboxone, is (I believe) that what you're talking about is a treatment in response to opiate addiction. Yes there are doctors to prescribe this, and yes, for some people with a dopamine deficiency, it helps a great deal. But I'm not sure if we're at the point where we - as a medical protocol - use suboxone for treatment of depression.
I COULD BE WRONG THOUGH, have never checked out this aspect of using suboxone. I would continue to look at this track. And that does mean a second, or third or forth (this is not mainstream) opinion.
About his hitting bottom --
again, in my opinion, from what you have described, this isn't something that is coming any time soon. That whole thing happens after they have been out of control, destroying relationships and the whole nine yards, for some time.
Once again, I think that doing nothing will lead him to eventually seek out that which will help him feel better. It is what we, as humans tend to do. It is a response to a basic need, not all drug abuse is about partying, or getting away from our feelings, although the "feelings" part def. plays into the reasons for the abuse. Does that make sense?
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what you says does make sense -- for him anyway, i think it is more about trying to find something that makes him feel better than just having fun. i think that's going to make it even harder for him to say he should give it up.
i want to point out that the ONLY reason he's not on the streets drug seeking is that his social anxiety issues are worse than his addiction issues.
i think stealing drugs from his father -- after being confronted multiple times -- and knowing that his dad would have to go without -- that's definitely addict behavior. to tell us he's going to do it one way or another, that's addict behavior. to know it could make him very sick, that he'll need more & more, but continue to do it, that's addict behavior.
if this wasn't holding him back, if he could network and talk to people he doesn't know -- he'd be out there getting it -- i have not one doubt in my mind. he even told me i could go into a doctor's office & make something up to get a prescription so he could have it -- or maybe we knew someone we could buy them from illegally. neither of those two things are options.
i know that suboxone is not approved for depression, but a lot of people have good results -- and there have been a few studies -- so it's something we're looking into. i do believe he is addicted, not just dependent -- just his other problems are doing a little bit of good by holding him back.
off-label use of prescription medication is pretty common. i've found an addiction specialist/psychiatrist i may call, see what they think.
i do know if he tries the suboxone and it doesn't give him some relief, he won't continue using it.
this morning we talked a little bit before i left for work -- he'll say he's probably addicted, but "that's what happens" - and he was more open to trying some kind of treatment.
i want to point out that the ONLY reason he's not on the streets drug seeking is that his social anxiety issues are worse than his addiction issues.
i think stealing drugs from his father -- after being confronted multiple times -- and knowing that his dad would have to go without -- that's definitely addict behavior. to tell us he's going to do it one way or another, that's addict behavior. to know it could make him very sick, that he'll need more & more, but continue to do it, that's addict behavior.
if this wasn't holding him back, if he could network and talk to people he doesn't know -- he'd be out there getting it -- i have not one doubt in my mind. he even told me i could go into a doctor's office & make something up to get a prescription so he could have it -- or maybe we knew someone we could buy them from illegally. neither of those two things are options.
i know that suboxone is not approved for depression, but a lot of people have good results -- and there have been a few studies -- so it's something we're looking into. i do believe he is addicted, not just dependent -- just his other problems are doing a little bit of good by holding him back.
off-label use of prescription medication is pretty common. i've found an addiction specialist/psychiatrist i may call, see what they think.
i do know if he tries the suboxone and it doesn't give him some relief, he won't continue using it.
this morning we talked a little bit before i left for work -- he'll say he's probably addicted, but "that's what happens" - and he was more open to trying some kind of treatment.
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you sound like a very smart lady (i didn't realize he was quite this dedicated to serving his pill needs), and one who doesn't sugar-coat because of your love for him. this will serve you well.
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i've had years of learning to use all those scary mental illness words -- i stopped sugar coating years ago
if i learned to use psychotic without cringing, i can do addiction
it took me almost 2 years before i could say it out loud
if i learned to use psychotic without cringing, i can do addiction
it took me almost 2 years before i could say it out loud
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If your son is truly opiate dependent, his brain will have produced extra receptors. They never go away but they do go to sleep with abstinence. Many detox and rehab facilities recommend oral or implanted Naltrexone for newly detoxed patients. There are many off labels uses for Naltrexone these days and depression is one of them at a low dose. It's called LDN therapy and stimulates endorphins/dopamine.
Some people are born with low dopamine levels and need help to stimulate it. Some people are born without enough receptors and need help with that too.
I mentioned brain scans/imaging before and that can be done by a neurologist or even better, a neuropsychiatrist. They can tell you so much more about what's going on in the brain.
blui, you are a very intelligent lady and doing a ton of research for your son. I did the same thing for my daughter. In the process I came to the conclusion I was doing research that should have been done and known by my daughter's pdoc, and providing suggestions to him he should have been providing to her.
My daughter is very intelligent and knew her doctor was basically playing pin the tail on the donkey with her brain. Together, we found her another pdoc who provided damn near definitive answers for what ailed her, through diagnostic testing. One weeks worth of testing compared to months of hit and miss, all the frustration that goes along with it. We have excellent health coverage and the financial means, so I decided to use it for maximum benefit.
I understand your son's comfort level being imperative. However, there is no reason his pdoc can't work with another specialist able to provide more definitive answers.
Some people are born with low dopamine levels and need help to stimulate it. Some people are born without enough receptors and need help with that too.
I mentioned brain scans/imaging before and that can be done by a neurologist or even better, a neuropsychiatrist. They can tell you so much more about what's going on in the brain.
blui, you are a very intelligent lady and doing a ton of research for your son. I did the same thing for my daughter. In the process I came to the conclusion I was doing research that should have been done and known by my daughter's pdoc, and providing suggestions to him he should have been providing to her.
My daughter is very intelligent and knew her doctor was basically playing pin the tail on the donkey with her brain. Together, we found her another pdoc who provided damn near definitive answers for what ailed her, through diagnostic testing. One weeks worth of testing compared to months of hit and miss, all the frustration that goes along with it. We have excellent health coverage and the financial means, so I decided to use it for maximum benefit.
I understand your son's comfort level being imperative. However, there is no reason his pdoc can't work with another specialist able to provide more definitive answers.
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