Elsie

Ok, so after the whole pre-new years eve fiasco regarding our son together (See the thread entitled Got scared tonight) I haven't spoken to him very much at all. We had the big argument, and that was it, I kind of just stopped all communication.
After many failed attempts to text me and email me he sent a lengthy email.

I won't post the whole thing, I think that would be a violation of privacy somehow.
But I want to provide a few excerpts to get a few opinions.

Anything in quotes is from his email to me:
"Alcohol is a nagging, bitchy, f***ing nasty friend, who demands all my attention and wants to be #1. Alcohol is not a friend, alcohol is a mortal enemy, asking me to die with it…if alcohol must die, so shall I, alcohol is painful, alcohol is a no go pain in my ass and is not letting me live my life with the only person, the only friend I want to be with: you. You are my soul mate, I know it, but the dirty dance of shame that alcohol provides me is hindering my relationship with you and I cannot have it or live with it. I choose my life, my life with you and all the kids, my life free of abuse, free of being a slave to the can or bottle, free from shame, free to live my life the way you and I want to live."

" I want to live and be a Dad to my kids, to our kids, to be respected at home as I am at work. I am not special, I don’t have amazing talents, but I have a love for you, for life, for me that I will not see die with a beer can in the trash or a broken bottle of booze. Every fight we have ever had was from alcohol abuse, me being mean was from alcohol abuse. I am so sick of alcohol and abuse."

"But you are an amazing person and don’t deserve to be with a partner who is verbally and mentally abusive. Yet, I know that is not me; I am not, by nature verbally and mentally abusive. It is the alcohol."

"So, as of today, January 1, 2010, I am stopping the love-hate relationship with alcohol. I can’t say I will never drink again because that would be a lie. But I do know what I want and alcohol is not part of it. I want to be happy, to make others happy and to not be a slave to the bottle. Some people recognize the time to stop, others don’t. Those who don’t kill themselves early, alone and full of hate and bitterness. I recognize to stop, I want to be with you, to make you happy, to have you make me happy."

So, there's a few pieces from his email. We've exchanged emails since then, and I've been very cut and dry.
I asked him what his plan of action was. He avoided the question.
I asked him again, and he said he didn't have a plan, he was just going to stop. He said he doesn't need help.

I am feeling VERY apprehensive.
Do I believe him?

suki44883

Do you believe him? I don't know. I wouldn't believe anything he says. Actions speak louder than words. If he is not willing to get help; if he thinks he can just stop drinking on his own, after all the things he said about how he is a slave to alcohol, he is a fool. He is merely saying what he thinks you want to hear. Please don't fall for it.

Elsie

I questioned him on this "I can’t say I will never drink again because that would be a lie." and he said that he can't say that in 20 years he wont have a glass of wine.
I told him recovering alcoholics cannot ever drink again, that he'll be a recovering alcoholic till he dies!
He replied "I am not an alcoholic, I can live without alcohol, I am an abuser of alcohol. I don't have a psychological dependency on alcohol like alcoholics do."


This is a bad sign I think....

suki44883

Ah yes, the rationalizing. All alcoholics do it because they refuse to admit that they don't have control. They'll say I can quit any time I want. Yeah, I quit every night when I went to bed. The thing is, he is in denial and as long as he is, he will not stop. As I'm sure you know, alcoholism is progressive. It never gets better unless the alcoholic never drinks again. He's already telling you that he won't promise to never drink again. So, what kind of sense does that make? You are right to question his thinking. It's not your job to convince him not to drink. He is an adult and can do whatever he wants in that regard. Your job is to take care of you and your children to the best of your ability. You will do whatever you want to do, but if it were me, I would be adamant that, until he has gotten help and been sober for at least a year and is actively working a program, there would be no chance of a future with me, if even then.

transformyself

Mary Kate and Ashley! These are the same words my AH uses. Verbatim! All of it, from wanting to be a good dad to how i don't deserve him and am amazing. WTF????

Seriously, for like the past two years. Thank you for publishing them, it helps me to see how desperate my AH is for drama. And how alcoholics are not unique, despite their belief that they are.

my AH, his behavior and this cycle hasn't changed and I stopped hoping it would when I left in September. He maintains his love/hate relationship with alcohol, but I"ve ended mine with him.

pray4joy

He knows how to communicate what he thinks you need to hear. He is very good at words...this is kind of scary to me. My AH is not as confident with words. He is not as confident at convincing. BE VERY CAUTIOUS in my opinion.
In my experience I have learned not to trust or believe ANYTHING the alcoholic SAYS. These may be his real FEELINGS, HE MAY TRULY LOVE YOU AND WANT TO BE WITH YOU AND WANT A WONDERFUL LIFE WITH YOU...I have no doubt that inside that is what my AH really wants too. It is heartbreaking to know that there is something that will take him away from you. BUT HE HAS A CHOICE - EVERY DAY. You will do what you feel is best to do ... if you have children involved PLEASE PUT THEM AND YOU FIRST!!!!
If he isn't going to get some help, then surely he will fail...this is a really consuming evil spirit he is contending with...I am certain you and your children do not want to contend with evil spirit and the terror and damage it can spread. BE VERY CAREFUL and WEIGH what you choose to do every day.

Now after sounding so harsh...please I've heard it all...for years...it has damaged me not to the point of no return but it is going to take a lot of work once I have the chance to leave.

Best wishes in 2010 - HAPPY NEW YEAR

Love, D

Elsie

As sick as it sounds, I'm afraid to hurt him. I know when I leave it's going to crush him. That's not me being cocky, I just know it will hurt him.

barb dwyer

he's right about ONE thing =- You're in the habit of letting HIM determine what is going to happen with you.
This whole thing reads like someone 'padding their account' ....
like he's trying to build up to a failure
that's going to somehow be your fault.

Kittyboo

Elsie,

I NEVER walked away from my XA because I was SOOOOO concerned about his feelings, all the pain in his life, and being someone else who he lost in his life. Hurting him was my biggest fear.
And what I learned was that he had NO PROBLEM hurting me. He had NO PROBLEM never speaking to me again when he knew that I was hurting....who did he care about?...his ex wife. He dropped me like a hot potato to go back to her.

The pain that I experienced when I realized this was/has been overwhelming.

I hope that you don't take what I am saying the wrong way. All of our situations are different, but it is strange how ALL of our A's share MANY MANY common traits and behavior patterns.

Please don't put so much concern into him. Please put it into yourself. I wish to my HP that I had walked away MONTHS ago and never looked back, and never worried about hurting him as much as I did. I should have worried about myself. NOW I worry about myself.
I know it's hard, but take care of you.

ItsmeAlice

It's crap. It's all crap. I have yet to meet an alcoholic who cannot wax poetic about what he wants in life. His or her dreams, oh the dreams they have of love, life, and family blah, blah, blah, blah. But root of the root and the bud of the bud is found in their follow through.

You ask him, so what are you going to do about it?.....nothing but air passing through the trees and the sweet sound of crickets in the night.

They have no follow through, that is what they need you for. If they had follow through they wouldn't need people to hold their lives together because they would be in recovery learning how to do that for themselves.

You have educated yourself on what it means to be an alcoholic. Whether he wants to categorize himself as a giraffe with a hernia rather than saying he's an alcholic, who cares. What matters is that he is going to continue to suffer the consequences of his choice to drink...and all the physical urges and disease talk aside...his choices are what make his problems continue. You can choose not to participate.

As for consequences, they hurt. Some are trivial and some knock you out of your socks. You mouth off to the boss out of a fit of frustration and you get fired, that knocks you clean out. You forget your floss at home and spend the day with spinach in your teeth, not so life threatening.

Will it hurt both of you when you leave...yes my friend, that's one of those big bangs in life, but it's a consequence of your collective actions, well intended, or poorly thought out, it is what it is. It will hurt and you will heal. What he chooses to do will be his own doing. Not yours.

Don't believe his bull. I think you've been believing long enough. Believe in yourself now and believe there is a life for you out there. One day it may even include him again in more than an EX-father of my kids-sort of way, but not now.

Blessings,
Alice

tjp613

Ok, it will hurt him. So?

What about YOU?

Carol Star

My therapist said to tell my AH to do 90 meeting in 90 days...He didn't. He's still drinking and it is progressing. We split. I agree with.... don't go for it ...unless his actions change.

barb dwyer

Letting actions speak
takes one thing

TIME.

So the question goes from
'what do you think about me sticking around waiting'
to
'what have I always WANTED to do in life
that I haven't been ABLE to do
because I centered my life
around HIS life.'

That's a hard question
at first.

*I* didn't even know HOW
to make a decision
without first
twisting jamming and contorting it
to fit around
some alcoholic's life.

I'd never made a decision in my life
that didn't involve
me considering
how it was going to affect
everyone around me.
BEFORE I even tried it.

I was raised to do that.
And I had to UNlearn it.

That's a huge thing to learn.
You can start working on it

while you're waiting for his 'actions' to 'speak'.

Just a suggestion.

naive

when my alcoholic said things like yours, i truly felt that he meant it.

these proclamations frequently came when he felt threatened that i would leave.

i feel that he meant what he said.

those are the things he wants.

however, mine was not willing to do what it took.

it was far easier to say those things and then keep drinking.

we are powerless over alcohol.

he doesn't think he is powerless. he thinks he can quit with no help.

we know that the success rate of those who seek help, even then, is tiny.

it can be done. but if he does it alone, he probably won't succeed.

and what then about all the underlying emotional baggage that called him to the drink?

if he succeeds without help, you will only have a dry drunk.

bookwyrm

This quote jumped right out at me. I wouldn't believe this for a minute now - though I did for the longest time when with STBXAH.

I can look back at my 18 years with STBXAH and see he was emotionally and mentally abusive right from the start. It was subtle and it did progress over the years till I couldn't tell up from down. His alcoholism also progressed in that time. In my experience, the abuse happened drunk or sober. It was learned behaviour for him. Alcohol had nothing to do with it. When he was roaring drunk then yes, the abuse was in your face and scary. When sober it was much more subtle and harder to identify let alone counter. I think the alcohol gets blamed for a lot of the underlying personality problems the alcoholic has. It was an excuse STBXAH used to absolve him of any responsibility for his actions and something that stopped him looking at why he was acting/reacting in the ways he did.

STBXAH regularly said that I deserved better, that he wasn't good for me and I immediately jumped in with assurances. It was one of his favourite ways to make me feel needed - I HAD to make him feel better! I didn't even consider for a second he might actually be right!

It has taken me over a year to be able to look back at what was (at least I think I am) rather than what I thought things were. Denial ran strong in me and I'm still struggling to see clearly sometimes. I believe that STBXAH couldn't help acting the way he did. Until he gets help and starts looking at himself seriously (something the alcohol stops him doing cos it's all the alcohol's fault!) he will continue to repeat the pattern of abuse with the OW and her subsequent replacements and will continue to wreak havoc on the lives of those around him. I feel sorry for him. Not sorry enough to martyr myself for him though!

bookwyrm

Still working on this one. And it is HARD!!! Still haven't worked out how to do it....

Lilyflower

Bookwyrm, you have taken the words right from my mouth. I swear sometimes you share my mind!

This was how it was for me too, to a tee. I didn't begin to see that abuse was all over my relationship, sober or not, until I had some time away from it and my 'fog' lifted. I always considered our arguments to be just that, thank goodness I am learning now that differences can be settled without resorting to ridiculing, yelling, belittlement, countering and blaming; and that I am walking away from a life filled with drama, which has finally lost all appeal to me.

I am now at the point were my decisions are based solely on what is best for me and my daughter and it is the most liberating and self gratifying things I have ever encountered as an adult. I now truly FEEL like an adult, opposed to the way I used to feel which was comparable to a child struggling to convince everyone that she was capable of taking responsibility for her life, but no one believed her.

Lily xxxxxxxx

Impurrfect

(((Elsie)))

Yes, you letting him go is going to hurt BOTH of you. However, your pain will ease and your children will, at least, get to see ONE parent who is taking a stand against the alcohol (even it it's "just" a dry drunk).

I don't mean to be harsh, I really don't, but if you read the posts here of adults who grew up with an alcoholic or dry drunk in their family, they have some pretty serious issues that reach far into adulthood. They often feel like the alcoholic is the most important person in their family.

BTW, I'm a recovering addict. I DID "just" quit dope for the better part of a year. I was miserable and I relapsed. You won't find any of my posts here from that time because "I didn't need any help..I could do it on my own"....sound familiar?

After my relapse is when I found recovery.

I hope you find it in yourself to put you and your children first. Breakups are always painful, but his simply not drinking is NOT going to solve any problems. He drinks because he's trying to fill a void, or because he just wants to...until he admits he IS an alcoholic (what he is doing is NOT alcohol abuse) and he gets some help to find healthy outlets...IMO, nothing is going to get bettery...you're going to have the same angry person....he just won't be drunk. Chances are also good, he will find something ELSE to fill that empty space within him.

Hugs and prayers!

Amy

Elsie

Yes, I hear ya.
I'm confused though!
In these forums I keep reading about how the addict cannot quit successfully without any help, but last night I went into a different forum, where former addicts post and there were a lot of people in there who say that yes, it IS definately possible to quit without help! They they themselves have done it, or know someone else who did it!

I'm confused now!

LaTeeDa

I would say that, yes it is possible to quit without help. Rare, but possible. And then you have to consider that some people do quit and their personality doesn't change at all. They are still abusive, irresponsible, unhappy, even miserable without a drop of alcohol.

On the other hand, it's extremely easy to SAY all these things. Much harder to actually DO them. So, he says he will quit and become the man you want him to be. Mine said all these words, too. But, the actions didn't match up.

If it were me, I would respond with something like this. "It's great that you want to change. Let's talk in 6 months and see how it's going."

What's the hurry? You don't have to believe him or not believe him. You can wait and see.

L