tigger11

I spent a large part of yesterday reading the Big Book. It's SO good!

I LOVE the concept of people in the AA and Alanon programs helping others and how it helps ones' own healing process.

But I'm struggling. I realize that it was written toward the beginning of last century, and thoughts about marriage and divorce were vastly different than they are today. We are so quick to jump out of marriage today.

Now, I know that living with an A* is terribly terribly difficult, but being an Alcoholic and recovering are terribly terribly difficult, too. I'm probably focusing more on the marriage aspect of this, but the questions could be applied to any committed relationship slash family member.

BB focuses on helping others no matter the degree/stage of alcoholism, or the manner of hurt that has been meted out, including infidelity. I was amazed to read how the A*'s were visited by recovering A's, and how the A*'s turned their lives around. Sure there were relapses, but in the end, the vast majority lived pretty much lived full, healthy and fulfilled lives together as couples and as individuals, and helped many other people through the same things, which is one of the premise's upon which AA is founded, if I'm reading correctly.

So why do we encourage bailing out of the relationship? Why aren't we taking BB to heart more and being patient and honoring our vows/promises, almost no matter what?

I realize that some may look at this post as me waffling on getting my AH to leave. That's not the case. I need him out of the house ASAP for my sanity. What I'm wondering about is whether or not to divorce him, at least at this early stage. We'd only been married 2.5 years, and although we have struggled mightily during this time, it's only been 3 or 4 weeks since he took off his wedding ring and said he was done. Am I giving up on the marriage too soon? Should I pray that providence sends AH a nice RA straight into his path and talks to him the way they do in the BB and that AH will respond?

These are really rhetorical questions. I'm trying to determine MY next actions or lack thereof, and am "talking" it through on this forum. Also, it may not be up to me to file for divorce. He may file before I get a chance. Thank you for "listening"!

LaTeeDa

AA is a fine program for helping alcoholics. However, I wouldn't put too much stock in marital advice gleaned from the Big Book. I've always been very uncomfortable with the "To the Wives" chapter, and for good reason.

I won't go into a lot of the details since I've probably already hit a sensitive spot in some who believe the Big Book is without fault. But, if you want to find out why the BB has a particular slant on marriage, just Google "Bill Wilson infidelity."

Nuff said.

L

Cowgirl1265

Tigger, is there any reason that you have to make a decision about a divorce now? Can you be separated, possibly have a formal legal separation so that you are protected and have binding orders on matters of child custody, finances, property distribution, etc, but not file for divorce?

Only you can decide if divorce is the right option for you. It is a big decision.

I am not filing anything right now. I am getting my life together and I am working on myself. I will know when I know if it is the right time to file for divorce.

gowest

From a purely practical standpoint my issues with staying married really lie more in the category of legal entanglements/catastrophic financial consequences.

If we could stay married to somebody and actually draw a line in the sand where let's say a credit card company would acknowledge "oh, yes I can see that you didn't cause this huge debt and even though it is a joint account we aren't going to hold you responsible for anything" it would be a different issue.

The first time you deal with a bank throwing you out because you are still legally married (even though your stbexh left you over a year ago and is engaged to some one else) it has been my experience that one no longer views it as "giving up" on a marriage but as "self-protection".

laurie6781

The "To The Wives Chapter" r other readiney did it. It is by alcoholics for alcoholics.

I am glad you read it, as it can give 'hope' to all. However, you might do better with other reading material leaning toeard co dependency.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

freya

First off, Alcoholics Anonymous is as much a product of its times and of the biases of the people who wrote it as any other text is. To expect that it be otherwise or to treat it as somehow "infalible" is, in my opinion, silly and immature. That being said, however, it is, as far as I'm concerned, a great text and more than able to stand the test of time, to adapt to new and changing times, and to continuously offer "new and higher" perspectives to those who study it rigorously and regularly all along their recovery/spiritual journeys.

The chapter "To Wives" is clearly not one of it's best -- for many reasons (some of which have already been alluded to), but probably most of all because of the fact that it was actually written, for the most part, by Bill W. who was, obviously, an alcoholic and who, even more obviously, had never been the wife of an alcoholic. In that very fact it totally ignores one of the most basic foundations on which AA is based: the idea that recovery happens best when people with shared experiences help one another.

So, OK, there's a noticeable (and, to some people, "a disturbing") amount of misogyny and wrong-headedness in that chapter....and there are some historical "limitations" of various types throughout. But, really, so what? There is no such thing as a perfect text anymore than there is any such thing as a perfect writer.

And, afterall, the book is primarily focused on helping alcoholics and laying out the course of action by which it hopes to do so. For the most part it does an amazing job of that. And, therefore, it does an amazing job of introducing the 12 Steps as a design for living and of emphasizing the manner in and the attitude with which those Steps need to be worked if one is going to get the maximum benefit from working them. As such, I personally believe and treat it as the primary text of any 12 Step program, and I read it with all of my Al Anon sponsees who are not double winners.

Ultimately, the message of The Big Book is that you work the steps, you find relief from what ails you, you begin to "recover" your true and healthy self, and in doing all of that you find the solutions to your problems (whether they be relationship problems or anything else) that are going to work for and be "right" for you.

Telling people to leave a relationship or telling people to stay in a relationship is not what any 12 Step program should be about -- a 12 Step program is about working the Steps, helping others to work the Steps, and everyone finding solutions that work for and are true to him/herself.

freya

tigger11

All your posts are helpful, and although I didn't expect any response, I am not a bit surprised. You all embrace the "helping others" concept, and this is what's getting me through!

LaTeDa - as I've said in another post, I love your posts, your style, your honesty and directness. I want some of that!

Cowgirl - legal Separation - good idea. I'll put some thought into that.

Gowest - the financial issues are what I worry about. When two people go their separate ways, you never know what the other, who used to be a trusted partner, will do. He's wracked up SO much debt. I'm truly concerned. My sister is a lawyer, although not a divorce lawyer. She's been starting to give me good advice. Including that you can go to the county court and get the forms for divorce there, and only pay the court fees if the divorce is uncontested. WOW - my 1st divorce cost beau coup bucks, and I love having that option available to me.

Freya - rarely do people use words that I have to look up. I had to look "misogyny" up. Very cool. Both you and La made some very good points about the chapter on wives. That it was written by the A, not the wife, and that no text is infallible. Best of all for me in this moment was what you said about working the 12 steps. I haven't begun that in earnest yet. I NEED to call my temporary sponsor and get started on that! I'm gleaning that that will be a life's work, and a truly worthy one for each and every one of us, for health and wholeness and self respect. THAT is what I need and desire.

This has all come on me so quickly, and I'm frightened of making decisions that I'll later regret. But I need to protect myself, and I'm not sure how to do that. And I'm in such a FOG. I can barely make it through my days at work and be able to focus, or even SPEAK an intelligible sentence. I'm trying to take care of ME; getting enough sleep as well as I can, and eating fairly well. But the fog is still surrounding me.

Sooo much help in this little haven! Goodness, what would I do without you all? Thank God I don't have to!

McGowdog

I can only give my own experience with relationships.

I am the monogamous type and believe in the institution of marriage. I was once married to my favorite drinking buddy. I got sober and she left me.

I met a gal while sober, and she liked the sober "me". We've been married 9 years and counting now. I would be devastated if our marriage ended or if she got sick or worse. But we went into this deal with the realization that we both have to be complete, whole, and autonomous with or without the other. If she leaves, I'll survive. If I leave, she'll survive. We come together to make a stronger whole.

If I went back to drinking or if one of us was infidel, all bets are off. She's got strong moral convictions and a relationship with God and I've got A.A. and a relationship with God. I believe A.A. to be a moral program as well as a way of living sober. Others will see some things differently.

I'd like to add... I'm not a big fan of the last 4 chapters in the 164; To Employers, To Wives, The Family Afterward, A Vision For You.

They are unlike the work prior in that they conclude and explain. The rest of the book was so open-ended and had room for individual experience.

When it comes to codependency, I think Melody Beattie was King... or Queen!

trapeze

This part of your post struck a chord with me:

So why do we encourage bailing out of the relationship?

I've wondered about this myself. I agree that many of those posting appear to advocate for a decision to leave a relationship, based on the very limited information given in a post.

There are many posts with generalizations about how "they" (the alcoholics) all act. Not all alcoholics are identical. My RAH is not the enemy. He's not (and has never been) mean, rude, a jerk or crazy. He's not loud or obnoxious and doesn't go out to bars. He is a good-hearted guy with a cruel disease. He is in pain. We both are in pain, and we are both on our own journeys to heal.

That being said, I am not comfortable suggesting that someone stay in a relationship. How can I take a position? I'm more comfortable with the Al Anon philosophy that relationships are too complicated for members to advocate for one decision versus another.

tigger11

Anyone know of "How Al-Anon Works for Family and Friends" is available online?

trapeze

My Al Anon lit says you can order it at Welcome to Al-Anon and Alateen. Didn't check it out, though, got mine at a meeting.

tigger11

I ordered a used copy from Amazon. Just wondering if I could find it online... you know like open a PDF and read/download online?

LaTeeDa

I think it is perceived that way many times. My take on it is that when you encourage someone to consider all the options, it is perceived as encouraging the other option. Most (myself included) come to this board with the idea that leaving the relationship is not an option. We want to "make it work." When the other option of leaving is put out there, it feels like they are telling us to leave. Mostly because we don't want to hear that leaving is a valid choice.

Just my two cents.

L

trapeze

Interesting thought, but I know that leaving is an option. It was my first reaction as the child of alcoholics. I left home when I was 18 and never looked back. I've been divorced before, and know about the process and the outcome. I am financially independent, in fact, the breadwinner in the family. I have an adult daughter I raised as a single mom, having gotten a divorce when she was two.

When I first realized my husband's problem, I never even thought that staying was an option. Now I'm working to take things one day at a time. Maybe one day I'll want to leave. Maybe not. However, I question whether I will find support on this forum for staying.

Jadmack25

I left my late AH after 27 years of marriage, the last 5 being hell and being alone while he slurped thru 5 litres (over a gallon) of wine, sitting on the porch in the dark every night.
He refused to admit he had a problem, "just liked a drink of wine", became offensive in manner and his personal hygiene, til finally he indicated that he wanted me gone.
I went and he divorced me 15 months later.

I am with an ABF, tho we have our own units now, we had shared homes before. It was his drunken abuse and infidelity that split us, plus the broken promises and financial fears didn't help.

He is sober and working his own program, is a different man to any other sober time of the past, but I prepared to walk away if he takes another drink, because he's had 19 years of my life and I am not wasting anymore time or energy on fighting his fight.

I always hope that those here will get to where marriages work out, but at times it is dangerous or financial suicide to stay with a partner who is a danger or almost putting his family into the poorhouse.

I am a Catholic, so marriage to me is a sacred trust between two people, but I would not condemn anyone for leaving a spouse who broke their vows and turned that marriage into a living hell.

There are quite enough martyrs already, and it does not need any of us or our children to join them.

God bless

LaTeeDa

You have my support. If, and this is a big if, you accept him as he is. See, that's the catch. I wanted to stay, but only if he would change. I could not accept him as he was, yet I didn't want to leave. I put myself in an impossible position.

Staying is an option, just as leaving is. But either way, it comes down to acceptance. None of us has the power to control another human being. So, we must accept people as they are, or move on. There have been a handful of spouses on this board who have done just that over the three years I have been here. I very much admire the strength and character it takes to accept and stay. I could not do it. Not many can.

L

sapphire69

LTD you are so right. I think my lightbulb moment came a few weeks back during counselling. I was point blank asked by my counsellor why I keep wanting the people around me to change. I realized that he was right and all these years I have been thinking that if these other people would change then I would be happy. Once I let that go and began changing me and setting boundaries, the happier I have become.

My husband has not quit drinking, he has however cut down on the amount he drinks, taken classes for better parenting skills and is in a substance abuse class. Due to the change in MY behavior, I have witnessed a change in the behaviors of the people around me. At this point I am not considering divorce, but I am prepared for the day when I may think it's what is best. I live each day at a time, some good, some bad but I get through them and that is more than I was doing three months ago!

keithj

I appreciate you saying this, LTD. Even from the alcoholic point of view, I was very uncomfortable reading To Wives for a couple of years. It reads (Bill W. wrote that chapter, much to Lois's dismay) like a soft sell, go easy on the poor alkie, kind of thing.

But in looking more closely at it, I see that it is full of spiritual directions for the spouse (or sponsor for that matter). And it's the same directions given to the alcoholic. If it's read in the context of a spouse with a recovering alcoholic, it's got good directions.

For the spouse of the alcoholic not interested in following those same directions, however, it's tough to take at times. But, if we take the alcoholic out of the picture entirely, it's got pretty sound spiritual direction.

tigger11

Thanks to all for your posts, they are much appreciated, and read with avid interest!

LTD, yours in particular spoke to me. My AH is a very sick man. The insanity is constant, there are never lucid moments. The more I understand alcoholism and codependency, the more I understand these things. It is NOT okay to have him in my life. And I don't expect him to change. With much input, some used, some put aside, all appreciated, I will most likely divorce him. It's difficult for me to even type that sentence with my strong beliefs against it.

Forgive me for continuing to say this, but I have to in order not to crawl up into a hole and the fetal position and wither away. I must MUST work on myself. I haven't the strength to withstand much more than that.

Laverene

This understanding has been the single most important one in my life to date. I grew up watching my family of origin with the silent understanding that you stayed - no matter how badly you were treated - that's what you were suppose to do. The religion I was raised with played a huge part in this idea as well.

So when I found myself in a verbally and emotionally abusive relationship (7 years), I never seriously considered leaving. Up until the end, I would "consider" it but the idea struck horror in me (in terms of feeling like a failure and doing something 'bad'). In fact, I only left when my physical health was so fragile, that it became clear if I stayed, it might just be the death of me. My physical self made the decision that my mind couldn't come to terms with. The guilt I felt when I left was overwhelming.

When I look back over my life - I have followed this same pattern whether it be in friendships, romantic relationships or work. All exasperated by my codependent tendencies. Once I was in, I was in. If I did leave, even on good terms, part of me felt I had done something wrong.

Now I understand, walking away is always an option, sometimes the best and only 'sane' option. There is nothing at all wrong with that choice no matter what I have been taught throughout my life - taught from such a young age - before I was even capable of thinking critically. My personal experience contradicts what I learned early on.

I've been playing with fire the past few months. I've found myself involved with a practicing alcoholic. I've been lurking around the board for a few weeks and it has probably saved me another 7 years of a new kind of hell. This last week I made the decision to walk away and have done just that. This time there isn't any great drama involved in the process of leaving as I've done in the past. Just the simple realization that my life is worth more than living like this - with someone who is not capable of meeting my needs and wants. Everything else I have chalked up to details.

There is no guilt this time around. There is no shame in walking away but the amount of self respect I would have to continuously swallow to stay is truly astounding. I'm horrified I found myself here yet again with this choice.