honoryourself

I think one of my biggest confusions is what to say anymore. I'm seeking advice here.

For the past couple of days my AH has hardly uttered a word to me in person, sulking, acting indifferent to me and ignoring me most of the time. I have not tried much to reach out to him, but even in the case where I asked him a direct question, he has given me a response with as few words as possible and no eye contact.

This stems from arguments starting late last week and into the weekend regarding my 'nagging' him about drinking-- which was really me trying to talk to him about his drinking, and me being concerned that it did not seem he had control over drinking as he claimed he did simply because he had cut down a lot.

I'm trying very hard to learn about the disease and detach from it, but it's very confusing. This morning he made a comment about how maybe he wouldn't be going to our mutual friends' engagement party (we have a very long drive and a night stay in another state to celebrate their party--and the girl's mother has paid per person already for a meal for us). I said, oh, you aren't planning on going anymore? And he said well we aren't exactly on good terms right now are we.
I tried not to react and what I said was "Well, you can't really expect anything to improve if you don't make any effort in communicating with me. I can't force you to talk, and I'm not going to try to, but ignoring me and a situation will not make it go away."
He responded that "we'll talk tomorrow after work."

So now I'm left with this-- if/when we do talk, what do I even say?
I'm sure he'll tell me how he feels I'm so negative and always on his back and I don't congratulate him enough and I should be proud of him cutting back on alcohol but instead I'm hounding him. What do I say to that? Is there any point in talking?
Should I try to respond with my point of view? Should I simply say, I'd be happy to discuss all of this in the presence of a mediator or counselor, because I don't feel as though we have gotten anywhere in previous conversations like this, and refuse to discuss it just the two of us?

Should I ever say that I'm concerned that he does have a problem with alcohol still, or ever use the world alcoholic to label him, because I'm sure that will only make him angry? Should I focus more on how his behaviors and actions are affecting me-- that I'm really tired of lies and manipulations (even though in the past few weeks as he has been "trying" to turn a new leaf, I have no evidence that he's lied or outright tried to manipulate me)? I feel like bringing up the big issues right now will be met with anger that I'm not giving it a chance.

Should I talk to him about the fact that I went to an Al-Anon meeting this week or a CODA meeting and that I am trying to get help for myself?
How would I respond if he gets angry at the implication that he is an alcoholic if I am going to al-anon?

I feel my biggest problems are his moodiness, his inability to be honest with me about his feelings or what he's going through, and the fact that he really needs counseling and help, and he has decided he doesn't need it (as usual, there was one week he admitted he needed help and sought it). He tells me he thinks I'm the one who needs help. He admits he isn't perfect but doesn't "see the point" in getting counseling or group therapy.

I just don't know what to say.. I feel like most of what I say if it's honest will be met with anger and denial and conflict. I feel like he will shoot holes in my 'argument' because he will say that he's changed in the past two weeks and I'm just not seeing it, that i'm just complaining and living in the past.

I just want a partner--someone who I can talk to without being afraid that they will use my insecurities against me in the next argument to gain the upper hand. Someone who I feel is listening when I talk about my day and listens when I need a shoulder to cry on. I want someone who contributes to the marriage and is honest and open. Should I just say that?

Or should I Just avoid the conversation...
Thanks for any tips you can give me.

honoryourself

Also, I feel like he is fishing ... he hasn't spoken to me but 5 words in 2 and 1/2 days, and I just got an email from him that was a forward from his boss to the people on his work team, congratulating him for having a killer week in sales.

He just hit the fwd button and sent it to me. I haven't responded. Should I?
I was thinking of just typing: Congratulations, it looks like you are doing really well at work.

Or should I ignore it.. why should he get praise when he is ignoring me? He really is doing well and I am proud. But I'm also hurt and ignored and angry that he wants something from me without giving anything back.

Pelican

Sounds good to me. (congratulations, etc...)

Sounds unhealthy to me: (ignore him because he is ignoring me)

I am divorced from my alcoholic. Before we divorced, I spent several years miserably on the fence. Should I stay or should I go. I finally learned how to live in the moment. I put my marriage on the 24 hour plan.

Everyday, before my feet hit the floor, I had to decide if today was the day I leave or was I going to stay another day. Everyday I decided to stay, I lived my next 24 hours to the best of my ability as a married woman. Then went on for a long time. However.....

One day I did wake up and decided it was time to go. I did everything within my power to end my marriage and start a new life for myself and my children.

The 24 hour plan kept me from living each day in turmoil. I took my marriage one day at a time. I still live my life one day at a time.

Still Waters

Uhm...man I'm really bad at this stuff too. LOL.

What I have learned is that when dealing with an active drinker, I don't talk about what they do at all other than a: I can't live like this, so I am [insert action].

I mean, if you think you're going to get honesty and positive reactions from a man who is drinking and knows that his drinking bothers you..well, I think that's magical thinking. Certainly a recipe for disappointment.

Sounds absolutely reasonable to me! But is it reasonable to ask this of an alcoholic/addict? Not really.

Ask yourself, why is it necessary for you to be supportive and congratulating him for doing what is normal?

honoryourself

Pelican, thanks for the story, that seems like a very interesting way to live. I think my AH describes it as my 'split' personality.. because I go from trying to be the best wife ever, to breaking down and screaming my head off because I'm not getting anything back out of it. I don't know how well I can manage that, at least at this point. But it is a good tip, and maybe with some help I can get to a place where I can control my emotions better.

Thanks for the advice, too.

Still Waters, you hit the nail on the head for me.. I feel like I am constantly giving him a cookie for doing the things any responsible husband would do. And he's not even fulfilling the entire role, and it took him a while to get to this point, too. Yes, I think he's come a long way, and he had a lot to battle against, things that I never had to fight against in my upbringing. So I do have sympathy and compassion-- maybe too much. I think everyone needs some support and it's reasonable to want some of that to come from your spouse. I just find it irksome for someone to expect from someone to whom they are being a general a** at the moment!

I will take the higher road and send the congratulations. It was mostly confusion on my part-- I don't know if it is him trying to send out a feeler to see how much control he still has over me.. that if i responded quickly and with much praise then he'd know he still had a piece of me..
Not sure if that makes sense..

Thanks !

Cowgirl1265

Yes, exactly so.

Rather than talking with a person who is clearly hostile and manipulative about the state of your relationship and his drinking, it might be a good time to sit down with yourself and think about what you want out of your life and if it is realistic to expect to have it with this person.

If he is not interested in changing his behaviors, there is nothing you can do about it.

What would happen if you took the focus off of him and his behavior and put it on YOU and doing things that make YOU happy? Whether he came along for the ride or not?

If you are not already attending Al-Anon meetings I urge you to consider finding one to attend.

honoryourself

Thanks, I am trying the al-anon thing.

You have all said sort of the same thing-- that while he is drinking the conversation is pointless. Maybe I'm having a hard time accepting what I thought I had accepted-- that he is only have 1 and sometimes 2 beers at the end of the night right now. Am I to call this active drinking? Is it always active drinking?

He knows the drinking bothers me, he's admitted it bothers him too, and is trying to cut back... so I guess that I see he is in a stage of trying, but perhaps he is misdirected. I do want to encourage good behavior... but not bad. Is this good or bad behavior though? The problem is he won't speak to me calmly about it. I can't tell if it's the alcohol talking, or just an attitude.

Cowgirl1265

Does it matter what kind of drinking it is if it is something that you can't accept?

Instead of focusing on how much he is or isn't drinking, try focusing on what is or isn't acceptable to YOU.

You didn't cause his drinking, you can't cure it and you can't control it. All you can control is YOU.



You are focusing on HIM. His behavior, his attitude, his thoughts. These are things you cannot control. Your first steps toward the freedom of serenity will be when you are able to center your thoughts on yourself -- what YOU feel, what YOU do. Does this make sense? As long as you are engaged in trying to get him to live up to your expectations, you are engaging in insanity.

Learn2Live

Quote:

Thanks, I am trying the al-anon thing.

Quote:

You have all said sort of the same thing-- that while he is drinking the conversation is pointless. Maybe I'm having a hard time accepting what I thought I had accepted-- that he is only have 1 and sometimes 2 beers at the end of the night right now. Am I to call this active drinking? Is it always active drinking?

Yes, drinking is "drinking" and drinking is "active drinking" so long as he is drinking, no matter how many, one or a hundred and one.

Quote:

He knows the drinking bothers me, he's admitted it bothers him too, and is trying to cut back... so I guess that I see he is in a stage of trying, but perhaps he is misdirected. I do want to encourage good behavior... but not bad. Is this good or bad behavior though? The problem is he won't speak to me calmly about it. I can't tell if it's the alcohol talking, or just an attitude.

You can't really separate the two can you, the alcohol vs the attitide? Because alcohol does not talk, people talk. He is ONE person with a disease. If he drinks, he is feeding his disease and this is "bad".

He cannot do anything for you about how his drinking bothers you. You are responsible for your feelings and you are the ONLY one who can manage your feelings. This alcoholism is a problem that is MUCH BIGGER than ANY of us, and MUCH BIGGER than ANY relationship.

He is not in a stage of misdirection. You cannot help, encourage, discourage, change or in any other way affect or change HIS disease.

Hang tough. You're doing well.

trapeze

So let's ask the question another way: did anyone on this forum ever find anything to say to an active alcoholic which made a difference in what they did?

The only think I said which seemed to get his attention was "leave and don't come back until I say so". At that point (1) he knew I was serious and (2) decided to get help. All my explanations about pain, responsiblity, didn't change a thing.

He's in rehab now, so it is too soon to know how the story will develop.

I like Pelican's one day plan.

honoryourself

Honestly, if I told him to leave he would probably laugh, and call it HIS house. Even though I'm the only one who has made payments on any of our bills in the past 8 months. He has been trying (unsuccesfully) to get a business going. Finally when he caved recently he decided to get a job to help contribute. Still no paycheck yet. But the point is we are both on the title. I can't kick him out, because he has no where to go. He has no family and few friends here, and grew up halfway around the world. He moved here for me/us.
I wish it were as easy as saying get out, even if only for a short while! I'd love to enjoy some peace and quiet in the house for once.

Zak68

When you talk just lay down what each of you feels is the problem. Let him know his drinking is bothering you. Find out what is eating him.

If he has issues with your ideas on his drinking find out why that bothers him so much. Why is the need to drink more than the need to keep the marriage healthy.

Try to find a common ground where each of you has a role to fufill. If you can hold up to your end of the bargain and he can't then you can show him that.

I tried the same thing with my AW. Things worked well for a while then the lies and hiding began again. That's when it all went downhill fast. For a while though things were really great.

trapeze

The point is, there's nothing you can say in order to get him to do what you want him to do. You have no control over his drinking, by word or deed. It doesn't matter what you say.

Apparently, my AH had defined rock bottom as losing his family, and he knew I was taking a stand for my sanity, not his sobriety. However, who knows what will happen next. He's in for 6 weeks of rehab, so all's quiet on the home front.

Live

However he reacts is on him. I doubt there is anyway or anything you can say that will yield results the way you think or would like. Might as well be true to you and say what you want to or need to. If he gets angry...don't engage. leave the room, call a friend, go visit a friend, go to a meeting....he is what he is.
If nothing changes, nothing changes.

whereisthisgoin

Great question. Wish I knew.

I don't think I've ever said anything that made much of a difference to a drinking AH.

I hate that they just get to continue drinking and we're supposed to detach and let them. I'm here because I know that is right but it's waaay hard.

transformyself

Well, as long as I am/was trying to sort out what to say or do with my AH, I"m in agony. I was entangled in a net of madness. Guilt, shame, anger, pain, resentment and fear. I would think I figured something out, talk to him and he would twist everything around.

He's like an emotional and mental contortionist. And if I didn't stroke his ego every day, he was MAD! Giant ego, low self esteem. Low tolerance for even well placed criticism.

It's like torture isn't it?

I don't hear anyone giving you the magical formula for having a discussion with an A that will make this better. I think you can't. Rather, if you do, please come back and report it to us.

For me, there is no way to communicate with him. No way to be safe. No way to feel safe. No way to get through to him. No way to get my basic needs met. He's not capable.

The only thing that makes me feel better is to focus on my life, on what I need to do and try to release him. Forgive him and step away from the drama.

I'm glad you're here.

coping123

He responded that "we'll talk tomorrow after work."

I hear that every day, as recently as today, and the 'talk' and 'tomorrow' never comes. Avoidance is their only action that I ever see, they don't want to 'talk' about their disease, just feed it and hope you forget about talking about it, since the talking about it only feeds it even more.

If he is respectful enough to even want to talk, set your boundaries and stick to your values... then its time to work on 'you' and what you alone need.

hugs for staying strong

kv816

Sounds like a lot of quacking in your household. For me, quacking was him saying anything and everything he possibly could that he thought I wanted to hear (I've cut back on my drinking, we'll talk tomorrow).

I have learned that every conversation I had with xabf was pretty much pointless (except the ones that involved ME saying what MY problems were). He's said many, many times that he's not perfect. That he's lived a crappy life and dealt with things the wrong way and could have done better and yeah maybe he should deal with them through counseling. And two, three days later when I'd mention counseling again "what the hell do I need counseling for? You're the one that's messed up, YOU GO!" After awhile when he'd try to say something that should have relieved me I usually heard "okay, you want to talk, I'll tell you THIS so you'll leave me alone but rest assured I have NO plans of actually doing what I'm about to tell you I'll do".

So I lost hope. What was the point anymore? Having a conversation with him was pretty much saying to myself "okay, kv, I'm not happy with you today so let's go talk to abf so I you can feel even worse about yourself!!!" The conversation would be had and then he'd hang up on me or stomp out of the room and leave me there to wonder what the heck I did wrong!!

Case in point a few weekends ago. EVERY time we were together, he'd want to be in bed by 8:30 or 9:00. Now, I'm not the kind to stay up until midnight or later (though I have done it before). But I'm a comfortable 10, 11ish crasher. But every time we're together he wants to be in bed before 9. And his reason is that he just can't stay up late! And doesn't want to. Yet, every Saturday night when I call around 10 or so when I'm off to bed just to say goodnight he's not home. Then around midnight or so he'd call me saying he just got home and wanted to say good night. He was at one sis's grilling out, at another's playing cards, next door playing a board game. In two years together we have never done any of these three. So I asked him about it on morning. I simply asked do you think you could ever have a good time with ME until midnight? He blew up. Suddenly I became a bad person and he's only up that late because he rode with someone else and he had to stay until they left and every other excuse and then some.

Fact was, these "other" people are enablers. Happy as clams to kick back with his abusive butt and drink, drink, drink. If I called and said I've got a case, a deck of cards and some poker chips you wanna come play, he'd be here in a heartbeat.

Because in his life nothing is worth having without a beer.

I chose not to live that way anymore. I don't have the greatest self esteem but I'm not going to be second best to a can of beer. Sorry, got better things to do with my life!

Hang in there. Keep coming back here and going to meetings. Focus on you and how you want to live the rest of your life. It gets easier with time.

honoryourself

Wow, everyone has said some great things here, I have a lot to think about. I think it's confusing because on one hand I Feel responsible to a point, seeing as this is a marriage I entered in to, and I must play a certain role. On the other hand, he's not playing his, and it's hurting me, so I need to draw some lines.

kv--a lot of what you wrote sounds like I wrote it. About agreeing to get help and then turning it around suddenly as if it's the worst thing in the world. Every time there's a huge argument and he thinks I'll leave he will finally agree to therapy, but then put it off indefinitely. At first it was, I won't go to counseling but I will work on the marriage. OK so I said will you read some marriage books together with me each night or each week. Sure, no problem. I think he read 30 pages ONCE, and ONLY because I was being extra super nice to him--giving him foot rubs, telling him how sorry I was, buying him flowers, putting love you notes all over his office, etc. As SOON as I was upset about something he did/didn't do, it was all over... and it was MY fault. "Everything was great, but then YOU .. <enter excuse here>".

I feel crazy because I can't imagine going from saying, yes let's get help and go to counseling, to OMG are you f-ing kidding me? I don't need that crap! I don't understand that kind of thought process. When I question the change, it's either my fault, because suddenly what I did proved to him that he wasn't the problem, it was all me... or, "I'm allowed to change my mind."


I was very interested in what you said about going to bed early. My AH has always been the guy to go to bed early.. except when we first met, we'd go out sometimes, but really, in retrospect the only times we went out was when he could get his hands on some party favors. If I ever wanted to go out and have a fun night out, he would just say, I'll think about it, and then at the last minute let me down. Some times he would say OK and then at the last minute change his mind. It's like a game, I'd almost say.
At home now, we don't engage in any of those old behaviors, but I'd say we hardly do anything any more. I used to go out and have fun on weekends, nothing crazy but I'd meet up with friends for a drink or go to a get together or see a movie, whatever. To him though, everything seems like a chore. Either he doesnt like this person or that person, or they are all 'my' friends and not his (but he won't make any effort to make friends and has plenty of excuses why--none of them his fault), or he's tired, or it doesn't sound like fun.. etc. I think the only things that sound like fun to him are having people over so he can get drunk and go to bed when he wants. Having a party at our house so he can show off the most recent home improvement he did, or thing we bought for the house. I didn't see his materialism before we moved here because he had no money. Isn't that funny? I'm not materialistic and this bothers me too. I think he defines his worth in what he has and what he does at work and with money, etc. I also think he gets this from his family..

Anyway..he's in bed on weekends by 9:30 and 10. But he drinks at home too.. He's still active. Mostly he'll want to watch tv or a movie and get tired drinking and go to bed early, which is boring for me when all my weekends are like that! Then, as soon as we have an argument, he's out partying all over town until the bars close! WTH? I always wondered, why don't you want to ever go out with ME. What's wrong with ME. Then I realized that when he's with the guys, he doesn't have someone telling him to watch what he spends. If he gets drunk "ill just take a cab-- mind you, that's $40 from where we live, not to mention the fact that the car could get towed before he gets back to get it." He probably talks him self up and talks me down when he's out too, and that's good for his ego I guess. I don't know, it's frustrating.

Thanks for sharing everyone, I guess I'm venting a lot. I am trying really hard to just let things go.. and compared to last week, I've made great strides. Seeing these behaviors from an external point of view really helps to solidify for me what is and what isn't normal/acceptable behavior to me. Here's to the journey.

kv816

OH I SOOOO hear you on that! EVERYTHING was material to xabf. He drank because he felt bad because he couldn't give me what he wanted to give me...new clothes, nice house, nice car, night on the town, yadayadayada. And it didn't matter how many times I said it but "What you want me to have and what I want to have aren't always the same thing!!!' Heck, I would have been happy with renting a movie and curling up on the couch one night!!! But to him, we had to go out, go to the movie theater to really enjoy it and because there was no money for that we couldn't and it was his reason to sit around and mope (i.e. drink) about how awful a man he was.

And then when I moved out and started rekindling old friendship the sh!t hit the fan!!! "Oh, you're talking to so and so, what does that fat beetch have to say now? Oh, you're going out with so and so, gay man decide he wants a piece of you? Oh, yeah, they're "just friends" sure whatever...they just want a piece of you. " So I'd say why don't you come over and hang with us? "Why would I want to hang out with them?" DUH! OMG It got SOO old!!!

I ask him to take me out or at least spend some time with me that shows me he cares but he refused so I go out with my friends who remind me I am human and can have a good time and suddenly there's something wrong with all of them! It was always like if he couldn't feel good about himself or the situation than neither should I, or anyone else.

He couldn't give me what I wanted because he had no money. But his excuse for not working was he had no way of going (no car, no license). I say I'll bend over backwards to give you a ride anytime you need one so you can get a job and get money. But there was always a reason for that--HE'S the man and it's not my job to give him a ride not to mention I have a life of my own and I can't just up and drop everything because he needs me to give him a ride. Duh!!!

Basically what it all boiled down to was he was miserable and he was happy miserable and anyone who tried to make him unmiserable was just wrong and making him even more miserable.

Lord that relationship was SOO INSANE!!!!