can't even imagine
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can't even imagine
My lord, if I am still struggling this much to let go of this ex than I can't even begin to imagine how hard it would be for an addict to let go of the lifestyle and DOC (with a physical addiction especially). It's been months and still I think about it everyday. If anything I have more desire to reach out to her now that I did a few weeks ago. I have no idea why. Maybe I'm forgetting the bad things or just miss being able to cuddle up with someone on the couch. More power to those who have been able to walk away from either their DOC or their addict. I totally applaud you!
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ITP I wish we could have coffee 
SAME BOAT EXACTLY. I told yah "absence makes the heart grow fonder" I honestly think as time passes we remember the positive and good times, and have to force ourselves to think of the ngative and bad times we had with them.
I think about my ex first thing when I wake up, at times during the day and before I goto sleep.
I have got to the point that I see how UNHEALTHY our relationship was and I no longer cry over him which tells me I am getting stronger each day
PLEASE DONT REACH OUT! YOU HAVE COME SO FAR AND BEEN SUCH AN INSPIRATION TO ME.
I have held n/c for over a month now!! Not one single text! (I caved and sent a text early aug) but NOTHING since then because of this site, YOU and all the wonderfull healthy people that help us through times like this.
I can see how you want to reach out right now and still care so much for your ex.. but what good will it do right now?
The way I see things right now is if THEY wanted to contact US they would. She has your email, she has your phone number, she knows where you live...
I keep telling myself this over again if I even think to reach out. Maybe its the weather change that is bringing your feelings back and making you miss having a special someone.. I wish I knew what to say but I honestly think its just going to take more time for them to dissapear from our thoughts.
If you do feel that reaching out is what you want in your heart then GO FOR IT when i got those feelings i DID try with all my hear to contact my ex in any way i could.. Life is too short to hold back anything!!
Have a good day, your not alone.
P
SAME BOAT EXACTLY. I told yah "absence makes the heart grow fonder" I honestly think as time passes we remember the positive and good times, and have to force ourselves to think of the ngative and bad times we had with them. I think about my ex first thing when I wake up, at times during the day and before I goto sleep.
I have got to the point that I see how UNHEALTHY our relationship was and I no longer cry over him which tells me I am getting stronger each day
PLEASE DONT REACH OUT! YOU HAVE COME SO FAR AND BEEN SUCH AN INSPIRATION TO ME.
I have held n/c for over a month now!! Not one single text! (I caved and sent a text early aug) but NOTHING since then because of this site, YOU and all the wonderfull healthy people that help us through times like this.
I can see how you want to reach out right now and still care so much for your ex.. but what good will it do right now?
The way I see things right now is if THEY wanted to contact US they would. She has your email, she has your phone number, she knows where you live...
I keep telling myself this over again if I even think to reach out. Maybe its the weather change that is bringing your feelings back and making you miss having a special someone.. I wish I knew what to say but I honestly think its just going to take more time for them to dissapear from our thoughts.
If you do feel that reaching out is what you want in your heart then GO FOR IT
when i got those feelings i DID try with all my hear to contact my ex in any way i could.. Life is too short to hold back anything!! Have a good day, your not alone.
P
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thanks lost, your words helped rejuvinate my strength...just having a weak moment I guess. Not sure why really, obviously something internal with me. This too will pass. It is beneficial for me to hear encouragement, be reminded (external of my own thoughts) why it ended in the first place and that this is the right thing to do no matter what it feels like at the moment.
Lord knows the quick fix would solve the temporary pain but not solve the problem. I guess I just need to remember that. Heck, writting it now just reminded me. Thanks for helping get me back on track.
Lord knows the quick fix would solve the temporary pain but not solve the problem. I guess I just need to remember that. Heck, writting it now just reminded me. Thanks for helping get me back on track.
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Join Date: Sep 2008
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I have realized that my addict is to me like his vodka and drugs are to him. I have no power whatsoever over my desire for him - my craving for him - and what he has to offer me. The fact that I am fully aware of, and accepting of, the fact that the pleasure he has to offer is a grain of sand in a shorline of pain and destruction seems to be totally irrelevant in my cravings for him. It is utterly maddening. You would think that logic and rationalization could overcome this, but it doesn't.
I have been no contact since mid-June. He has called a lot, but I have never answered, and he doesn't leave a message. I may not be able to control my cravings for him, but I sure as heck can control my actions, and I refuse to allow that shorline of pain and destruction back into my "bubble"...that grain of sand is SO not worth it!
I have been no contact since mid-June. He has called a lot, but I have never answered, and he doesn't leave a message. I may not be able to control my cravings for him, but I sure as heck can control my actions, and I refuse to allow that shorline of pain and destruction back into my "bubble"...that grain of sand is SO not worth it!
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And I have to add that since I feel like I have somewhat walked in the addict's shoes now...not being able to control a craving, or a feeling that I "NEED" something that I know is bad for me....I find myself being less sympathetic to the addict who is struggling to abstain, or who has not accomplished abstinence. Heck yeah, its FREAKING HARD!!!!!! And UNCOMFORTABLE!!! And it SUCKS THE BIG ONE!!!! But, geez, quit being a cry baby and suck it up and get it done....or admit the fact that you don't really want to be clean and sober and quit dishing a bunch of lies. (yes, I know, I am working on the bitterness)
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Originally Posted by cynical one 
This should apply to our side too, just replace 'clean and sober' with 'free of obsession'.
That being said ITP your words ALWAYS help me, your part the reason ive been as strong as I have and lasted with my N/C. So I will be here 100% of the way backing you up to continue doing as well as you are
And if more time passes you have the urge.. follow your heart, the only thing to regret in life are the chances we DONT take.(keep strong right now see if it passes)
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I do agree as well cynical-one I didnt mean following JUST your heart..but heart & mind. Each will know what is RIGHT and ment for them to decide. ITP is strong the right choice will be made, whatever that may be for him.
the right choice will be made, whatever that may be for him.
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Originally Posted by cynical one
I totally disagree about following only your heart. If I ignored my head, I would have at least 100 abused/neglected children, a villiage of broken people and I would be one of those old ladies that are found dead being eaten by their stray pets that they've rescued over the years.
In recovery, I've found that right and easy start going together and wrong and hard go together. The more I continue to do the right thing for me, the easier it gets.
In recovery, I've found that right and easy start going together and wrong and hard go together. The more I continue to do the right thing for me, the easier it gets.
Following my head has never led me astray; following my heart has only led to problems--for me personally. YMMV.
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A friend of mine pointed that out to many moons ago, that if people always just followed their heart and not their head there would be a lot more murders and impulsive things going on. I would probably say I used to follow my heart when I used to “react” to her stuff before. It took stepping back and using my head to act in a cognitively aware and appropriate manner instead of reacting.
As for this situation, it has sort of left the arena of addiction/codependence in some ways and evolved into just the grieving and dealing with a loss. I suppose it is compounded by all the lies and false hopes that were built along the way and that may be more common in the world of addiction and codependence.
I think that was sort of what neecey was saying. That she did do that and that if she did so could an addict. They key words though are “hard, uncomfortable, (and) sucks”…in addition to the “get it done”. Both she and I are “getting it done” by maintaining NC, but it is a process. Just like an addict rejuvenates their strength and focus with NA, a codie does too with SR or Al-anon. Guess I was just having a weak moment. In the process I was trying to give props to those who have maintained the strength required to get to that destination because it is a lot easier to just bail and go for that "one last fix".
As for this situation, it has sort of left the arena of addiction/codependence in some ways and evolved into just the grieving and dealing with a loss. I suppose it is compounded by all the lies and false hopes that were built along the way and that may be more common in the world of addiction and codependence.
Originally Posted by cynical one
This should apply to our side too, just replace 'clean and sober' with 'free of obsession'.
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Thank you, IPT....I'm glad you "got" what I was trying to say.
I told my counselor the other day that the main thing that keeps me moving forward in my healing/recovery is the fact that this has been the most horrendous, wretched, painful experience I have ever endured, and I do NOT want to have to go through it again EVER!!!!! Back to square one? NA-UH!! I would rather give birth to 15 children WITHOUT ANESTHESIA than go through this from square one again!!! I realize this will be a life-long struggle for me, and sometimes I will stumble...but total relapse? That is simply not an option for me after all the pain I've experienced.
I told my counselor the other day that the main thing that keeps me moving forward in my healing/recovery is the fact that this has been the most horrendous, wretched, painful experience I have ever endured, and I do NOT want to have to go through it again EVER!!!!! Back to square one? NA-UH!! I would rather give birth to 15 children WITHOUT ANESTHESIA than go through this from square one again!!! I realize this will be a life-long struggle for me, and sometimes I will stumble...but total relapse? That is simply not an option for me after all the pain I've experienced.
To thine own self be true.
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Hey CynicalOne, boy you sure are cynical LOL.
I think you may have misinterpreted what Lost84 was saying. I believe that in this context, Lost was saying that when you are working your way through life, whether engaged with an addict or otherwise, you have to follow what your heart tells you; that you use your heart as a compass. I agree with Lost and found her advice to IPT to be wise.
Following your heart doesn't mean that you ignore what you see and think and therefore accept abuse and neglect. It doesn't mean that you purposely make decisions that are harmful to yourself and others. It means accepting life on life's terms and doing what you know is "right" FOR YOU at any given moment. What is right for each of us at any point in time in our life, is not necessarily what is right for someone else. It was "right" for me to have the experiences I have had with addicts and alcoholics in order that I could grow in the ways I needed to grow. And I continue to have experiences that further my own growth.
I don't know where you are in your Recovery, but are you saying that once you decided in your head that you didn't want to be with a particular addict anymore, you just made up your mind, walked away and never spoke to or saw him again? Did you just not feel anything in your heart and not long to be with that person in a relationship ever again? I personally have never been able to do that, in relationships with both addicts and non-addicts. And I think this is the struggle IPT posted about. When we first enter recovery we continue to try to get our needs met by the addict time and time again. It is often not until we are burned so many times that we even become aware that we are being burned. Everyone goes at their own pace. We relapse, we lapse, we get back on the wagon again. And again. And again. It's how we learn.
When we ignore what our hearts tell us is right for us, we only harm ourselves. But when we follow our heart, we honor ourselves. When we follow our hearts, we are compassionate toward both OURSELVES and OTHERs. Turning into a "stone-cold b!tch" as truthurts says is EASY but how does it make you feel? I personally have been this way in my life and I do not find that it makes me feel good about me. As codependents, we often and characteristically react to and take care of OTHER people and neglect and ignore OURSELVES (and our hearts).
The human heart is the moral compass. And your morality is between YOU and your Higher Power. Think of the Holocaust for a moment. MANY people, KNOWING that they were under threat of death to themselves and their entire families, could not just stand by and allow the Nazi's to capture, deport, and kill hundreds of thousands of Jews. They followed their hearts and assisted their fellow man in spite of the threat of Nazi retribution for doing so.
Do you still think that following your heart is wrong? Do you still believe that "good" is "easy" and "bad" is "hard"?
I know that dealing with addicts and alcoholics is like hell on earth. Painful, heart-wrenching, and we never want to go thru it again. But do you honestly believe that OUR pain is any greater than the pain of others, and that we are somehow granted an excuse to become cold-hearted?
Originally Posted by cynical one
I totally disagree about following only your heart. If I ignored my head, I would have at least 100 abused/neglected children, a villiage of broken people and I would be one of those old ladies that are found dead being eaten by their stray pets that they've rescued over the years.
In recovery, I've found that right and easy start going together and wrong and hard go together. The more I continue to do the right thing for me, the easier it gets.
In recovery, I've found that right and easy start going together and wrong and hard go together. The more I continue to do the right thing for me, the easier it gets.
Following your heart doesn't mean that you ignore what you see and think and therefore accept abuse and neglect. It doesn't mean that you purposely make decisions that are harmful to yourself and others. It means accepting life on life's terms and doing what you know is "right" FOR YOU at any given moment. What is right for each of us at any point in time in our life, is not necessarily what is right for someone else. It was "right" for me to have the experiences I have had with addicts and alcoholics in order that I could grow in the ways I needed to grow. And I continue to have experiences that further my own growth.
I don't know where you are in your Recovery, but are you saying that once you decided in your head that you didn't want to be with a particular addict anymore, you just made up your mind, walked away and never spoke to or saw him again? Did you just not feel anything in your heart and not long to be with that person in a relationship ever again? I personally have never been able to do that, in relationships with both addicts and non-addicts. And I think this is the struggle IPT posted about. When we first enter recovery we continue to try to get our needs met by the addict time and time again. It is often not until we are burned so many times that we even become aware that we are being burned. Everyone goes at their own pace. We relapse, we lapse, we get back on the wagon again. And again. And again. It's how we learn.
When we ignore what our hearts tell us is right for us, we only harm ourselves. But when we follow our heart, we honor ourselves. When we follow our hearts, we are compassionate toward both OURSELVES and OTHERs. Turning into a "stone-cold b!tch" as truthurts says is EASY but how does it make you feel? I personally have been this way in my life and I do not find that it makes me feel good about me. As codependents, we often and characteristically react to and take care of OTHER people and neglect and ignore OURSELVES (and our hearts).
The human heart is the moral compass. And your morality is between YOU and your Higher Power. Think of the Holocaust for a moment. MANY people, KNOWING that they were under threat of death to themselves and their entire families, could not just stand by and allow the Nazi's to capture, deport, and kill hundreds of thousands of Jews. They followed their hearts and assisted their fellow man in spite of the threat of Nazi retribution for doing so.
Do you still think that following your heart is wrong? Do you still believe that "good" is "easy" and "bad" is "hard"?
I know that dealing with addicts and alcoholics is like hell on earth. Painful, heart-wrenching, and we never want to go thru it again. But do you honestly believe that OUR pain is any greater than the pain of others, and that we are somehow granted an excuse to become cold-hearted?
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Being true to ourselves..... is key. I totally agree. It's when our heart says "enough"..... that it is "enough".
Just like when an addict is done with drugs.... we are done with our heart being broken.
Detaching with love..... not anger and resentment.... but with LOVE..... always LOVE.... is the codie answer.
NOT being a victim.... NOT putting ourselves in situations time and time again to be hurt.... having control over our existence ... KNOWING the difference.
BEING AWARE! BEING PRESENT!
Not asking of others to be something they are not. Not relying on others for our happiness, but ADDING to our happiness! Being that "easy silence".
IF... that person only causes pain ... if we are being true to ourselves then we wouldn't be ALLOWING ourselves to be around people/places/things that create suffering.
Is it harmful to ask for love, respect, truth ...etc. in a relationship? NO... not at all; however, when we are not getting the staples of a loving relationship - it's when we stop asking and start DOING...
Compassion is a beautiful art.... however, not in the form of being a victim or martyr.
We are HUMAN.... everything we do - we do because we are getting a return. It's when the return is not so great..... our ROI (return of investment) is proving to be not beneficial....... it is then that WE MAKE THE CHANGE. That our HEART lets go.
The pain stops when we accept OUR TRUTH.
-----------------------------
my brain is tired.... i have no idea if any of what I wrote makes sense. L2L says it beautifully.
Night xoxo
Just like when an addict is done with drugs.... we are done with our heart being broken.
Detaching with love..... not anger and resentment.... but with LOVE..... always LOVE.... is the codie answer.
NOT being a victim.... NOT putting ourselves in situations time and time again to be hurt.... having control over our existence ... KNOWING the difference.
BEING AWARE! BEING PRESENT!
Not asking of others to be something they are not. Not relying on others for our happiness, but ADDING to our happiness! Being that "easy silence".
IF... that person only causes pain ... if we are being true to ourselves then we wouldn't be ALLOWING ourselves to be around people/places/things that create suffering.
Is it harmful to ask for love, respect, truth ...etc. in a relationship? NO... not at all; however, when we are not getting the staples of a loving relationship - it's when we stop asking and start DOING...
Compassion is a beautiful art.... however, not in the form of being a victim or martyr.
We are HUMAN.... everything we do - we do because we are getting a return. It's when the return is not so great..... our ROI (return of investment) is proving to be not beneficial....... it is then that WE MAKE THE CHANGE. That our HEART lets go.
The pain stops when we accept OUR TRUTH.
-----------------------------
my brain is tired.... i have no idea if any of what I wrote makes sense. L2L says it beautifully.
Night xoxo
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My 'heart' has been selfless and selfish, and not always at the appropriate times. My 'heart' has steered me astray from my inner moral compass at times. I've learned my 'heart' and ego are all part of the same package: my conscience + consciousness = my soul.
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Originally Posted by cynical one
It's really not, it's us that makes this all so complicated. I take 100% responsibility for my part in all of it. He did nothing to me that I didn't ALLOW.
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Thanks cynical... I totally agree. This is what keeps people stuck. Granted we all have emotions, we all experience pain but we don't have to let the pain continue.. we have choices.
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I know for me in the beginning of this nightmare with my husband, I was given so much advice on what and what not to do. There was still this lingering attachment to him that pulled me back to him. I hung in there and follow my heart, was it all roses NO! Far from it, onething after another. It really didn't matter what others told me, I think I had to live it out to really understand. My family and friends were getting so frustrated with me, I knew I was making choices that I had to live with and kept alot inside, I was running out of shoulders.
This had to be done for me, I had to follow my heart...it led me to a point that I knew inside that I had done everything I could have possibly done to help him and save our marriage/family. I have no maybe I should have done this or that, no feelings of guilt (not that I should have). I stopped when I had had enough knocks on the head and not a minute sooner. When I was done I was DONE and that came from my heart.
Rose
This had to be done for me, I had to follow my heart...it led me to a point that I knew inside that I had done everything I could have possibly done to help him and save our marriage/family. I have no maybe I should have done this or that, no feelings of guilt (not that I should have). I stopped when I had had enough knocks on the head and not a minute sooner. When I was done I was DONE and that came from my heart.
Rose
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No, I think I got what Lost84 was saying…but I won't cosign on following your heart right back into the fire of a toxic person, or an abuser, or someone with dangerous or bad behaviors.
Clearly thats NOT what I was saying! I was soley giving MY advice to ITP not others. I am not well with wording.. maybe I should have used "instinct"? Instead of heart?.. Heart just came to mind as I was tryping I didnt think to include "mind" "knowledge" other words that fit into the situation, I chose the one "I" thought summed it up in "my opinion"
I may be young (24) I may not have expierence with being an addict, years of trying to hold a relationship with one, years of expierence with life itself but my feelings have at times been quite similar to ITP's post regarding:
"
It's been months and still I think about it everyday. If anything I have more desire to reach out to her now that I did a few weeks ago. I have no idea why."
It's true.. untill YOU have had ENOUGH and are DONE these feelings WONT go away.
I wasn't in any way encouraging him to reach out simply trying to say if it happened it happens... if these urges keep coming either way if you continue to hold n/c or try and reach out your getting closer to recovery. We all have a slight idea of what the outcome of actually contacting the ex addicts would be. (some need to see what their NOT missing) to remind them, rather than let them build up over years pro-longing letting go.
Again, I probablly didnt use the best of wording but my post was to help ITP. and not promotting "contacting the addict and being in a toxic relationship" but if he did try and reach out, (IVE BEEN THEIR MANY A TIMES) i would be here to help him through and understand the action or even thought of wanting too.
I don't blindly follow anything not my heart…not my head.
"you dont" BUT others DO.
I don't think I said anything about good and bad, I believe I used right and wrong. As, in what the program says about doing the next right thing.
Whose to say what's "RIGHT & WRONG" are the programs "next steps" even the right thing to do? Or are they their to "guide people through, soothe their hearts, ease their minds?"
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
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Dear Rose and Abundance, Thanks so much for putting simply and into such personal words what I was trying to say. Doing so is beyond my talents I think, as I tend to use too many words and am a little too harsh in my responses. Your posts bring me peace.
Dear CynicalOne, Thank you for your reply. One thing I LOVE about SR is that we can all post our own perspectives according to our own abilities, and although we may disagree once in a while, we can still be "sisters" in our Recovery. So in regard to the following:
My response was not because I did not like what you say. And I have no desire to ask anyone to "ban" you, nor to ignore you. We all have something valuable to contribute to one another, even if it is a single word. Let us all please expect the best possible motivations in others.
I truly honor your response, your opinions and your feeling of duty to pay your experiences forward. What I did not agree with was simply that your post seemed to directly contradict and disagree with Lost whereas I found Lost's post to be quite useful and applicable to IPT, especially given the fact that Lost is very new to Recovery. I also have been "guilty" of this in my posts, so I am not judging. The point of my post was to expound on Lost84's reply for the benefit of IPT, (although in direct response to your post.) I hope you understand and welcome my reply.
You may not recall that IPT has very recently gone No Contact. It was my impression from his posts that he has just entered his Recovery. IMO Lost was trying to advise IPT that his feelings of wanting to contact his XGF are OKAY. That we ALL have gone thru what he is going thru, and that many of us are currently going thru it. (Solidarity, sistah, ya' know?)
I interpreted Lost to say to IPT that in life, it is OK to follow your heart-we all have to be responsive to our own feelings. And yes, involvement with the XGF is ill-advised from OUR perspective because we have ALREADY lived thru what IPT is going thru. You have 10 years of Recovery. Neither IPT nor Lost have that much time or experience under their belt. I personally have gone thru the same thing IPT is going through TWICE and although I can guess at what will happen if and when he contacts the XGF, HE has to learn that lesson for himself. And he will do that, learn the SAME lessons you and I have learned, by following HIS heart, just as we have followed ours. I have no crystal ball for IPT despite what I know is true for MYSELF.
So, I hope you forgive me what appeared to be a personal attack against you or your advice. It absolutely was not. I probably am as, if not more, abrupt and direct as you are.
Now, for the sake of clarity regarding my assessment of the seriousness of the Holocaust vs. the seriousness of our predicament:
I would like to respond directly to your apparent discomfort to my Holocaust analogy. I do not compare the problem of addiction in our society and our lives, to the suffering of the multitude of victims of the Nazi regime. What I was comparing was the condition of the human heart between people under two separate circumstances.
The hearts, feelings and morals of the people who aided the Jews, the gypsys, the political prisoners, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the homosexuals, and all the rest of the Nazi "enemies" were just like yours and mine.
But if we (you and I) take a deeper look at these "rescuers" we see that even under the threat of DEATH, they followed their hearts. WE, as "codependents" have to decide whether or not to follow our hearts under the threat of mere heartache (which is what IPT was expressing). The more practical threats such as physical and emotional abuse were a separate issue for IPT IMO and although troublesome, do not give us the excuse to neglect and disregard our OWN feelings. We are not exceptional people, and our hearts are not either, especially in comparison to people who have suffered (and suffer now) much more serious harm and pain.
It is easy to allow anger and fear to direct our steps but doing so is to neglect US and keeps us from growing to our full potential. It is much more difficult to allow peace and love to direct our steps because it is so much more painful. But doing so allows us to grow. It was the Nazi's who used anger and fear to the detriment of mankind. It was the "rescuers" who used love and peace to the benefit of mankind. We must be compassionate and responsive toward OURSELVES while being kind and compassionate toward OTHERS. To not do so is codependence and that is what we are trying to change about ourselves is it not?
God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.
May you ALL find peace in your hearts today....L2L
Dear CynicalOne, Thank you for your reply. One thing I LOVE about SR is that we can all post our own perspectives according to our own abilities, and although we may disagree once in a while, we can still be "sisters" in our Recovery. So in regard to the following:
If you don't like what I say, ask the mods to ban me, or use that handy dandy ignore this poster button, I would be indifferent to either. What I can tell you is I have the experience of 10 years in recovery and what I say is out of concern, out of wanting to help, out of caring, out of doing the right thing by trying to pay it forward.
I truly honor your response, your opinions and your feeling of duty to pay your experiences forward. What I did not agree with was simply that your post seemed to directly contradict and disagree with Lost whereas I found Lost's post to be quite useful and applicable to IPT, especially given the fact that Lost is very new to Recovery. I also have been "guilty" of this in my posts, so I am not judging. The point of my post was to expound on Lost84's reply for the benefit of IPT, (although in direct response to your post.) I hope you understand and welcome my reply.
You may not recall that IPT has very recently gone No Contact. It was my impression from his posts that he has just entered his Recovery. IMO Lost was trying to advise IPT that his feelings of wanting to contact his XGF are OKAY. That we ALL have gone thru what he is going thru, and that many of us are currently going thru it. (Solidarity, sistah, ya' know?)
I interpreted Lost to say to IPT that in life, it is OK to follow your heart-we all have to be responsive to our own feelings. And yes, involvement with the XGF is ill-advised from OUR perspective because we have ALREADY lived thru what IPT is going thru. You have 10 years of Recovery. Neither IPT nor Lost have that much time or experience under their belt. I personally have gone thru the same thing IPT is going through TWICE and although I can guess at what will happen if and when he contacts the XGF, HE has to learn that lesson for himself. And he will do that, learn the SAME lessons you and I have learned, by following HIS heart, just as we have followed ours. I have no crystal ball for IPT despite what I know is true for MYSELF.
So, I hope you forgive me what appeared to be a personal attack against you or your advice. It absolutely was not. I probably am as, if not more, abrupt and direct as you are.
Now, for the sake of clarity regarding my assessment of the seriousness of the Holocaust vs. the seriousness of our predicament:
I would like to respond directly to your apparent discomfort to my Holocaust analogy. I do not compare the problem of addiction in our society and our lives, to the suffering of the multitude of victims of the Nazi regime. What I was comparing was the condition of the human heart between people under two separate circumstances.
The hearts, feelings and morals of the people who aided the Jews, the gypsys, the political prisoners, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the homosexuals, and all the rest of the Nazi "enemies" were just like yours and mine.
But if we (you and I) take a deeper look at these "rescuers" we see that even under the threat of DEATH, they followed their hearts. WE, as "codependents" have to decide whether or not to follow our hearts under the threat of mere heartache (which is what IPT was expressing). The more practical threats such as physical and emotional abuse were a separate issue for IPT IMO and although troublesome, do not give us the excuse to neglect and disregard our OWN feelings. We are not exceptional people, and our hearts are not either, especially in comparison to people who have suffered (and suffer now) much more serious harm and pain.
It is easy to allow anger and fear to direct our steps but doing so is to neglect US and keeps us from growing to our full potential. It is much more difficult to allow peace and love to direct our steps because it is so much more painful. But doing so allows us to grow. It was the Nazi's who used anger and fear to the detriment of mankind. It was the "rescuers" who used love and peace to the benefit of mankind. We must be compassionate and responsive toward OURSELVES while being kind and compassionate toward OTHERS. To not do so is codependence and that is what we are trying to change about ourselves is it not?
God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.
May you ALL find peace in your hearts today....L2L
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Hey Lost. I think your words are just fine. Please keep posting! your words, your feelings AND your advice! They DO benefit others. I recall many times when your posts have got me thinking and more aware of what I am doing in my life. L2L
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Hi IPT!
I think we all are going through this. It's part of the human condition and you are learning. Please have patience with yourself. Our hearts seem to often contradict what we know to be healthy. And that seems to be the crux of the "problem" for many people, codependents, addicts, and other people. I KNOW not to eat a gallon of ice cream at a time but I really really want it! Which do I follow? Which is healthiest? What do I need to do to change myself so that I almost always make the healthier choices FOR ME? Because I obviously cannot change the fact that ice cream is readily available at the store, right! :O)
It is so good that you see how you are REACTIVE and have developed the ability to step back and try to make the healthier decision. Keep up the good work!!! You can most certainly do what is healthy for you, I am confident in that.
I would probably say I used to follow my heart when I used to “react” to her stuff before. It took stepping back and using my head to act in a cognitively aware and appropriate manner instead of reacting.
It is so good that you see how you are REACTIVE and have developed the ability to step back and try to make the healthier decision. Keep up the good work!!! You can most certainly do what is healthy for you, I am confident in that.
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 494
WoW – that was a little wild but there were some very good points stated.
For me, and after reading what all of you said I guess it all once again comes back to Denial. I agree that it is silly to “follow your heart” if it is going to just put you in a situation where you are going to be hurt. Like lost said though, at the same time there is a need to follow thru on things until they are “done” within us. The crux of it is being able to finally accept (or in many cases even see) reality. That you WILL IN FACT BE HURT, and this is NOT going to be “the time” it all changes.
As has been stated in threads all over these boards we use denial to protect ourselves from pain. It is hard work accepting things and working thru it and I was applauding the folks that have done it and recognizing that it is a difficult process. It is so easy to remember the good parts of our addicts and I think that is where we follow our hearts. It is in our heads though that we need to see what reality is and step back to avoid the pain despite what are heart would have us believe.
I am not sure why I still feel the intermittent desire to contact her. What I expect to hear, or even want to hear. A small part of me (the codie I guess) still thinks maybe she will see how good she "could" have it and suddenly change (wouldn't THAT be nice (lol)). I know that I am not feeling the urge to contact her to "try again". My mind is clear on that. I think it is just a mixture of the general grieveing of a loss (with remembering the good parts) and just plain compassion. Wanting to be there for someone that I know is hurting and had come to care about deeply.
For me, and after reading what all of you said I guess it all once again comes back to Denial. I agree that it is silly to “follow your heart” if it is going to just put you in a situation where you are going to be hurt. Like lost said though, at the same time there is a need to follow thru on things until they are “done” within us. The crux of it is being able to finally accept (or in many cases even see) reality. That you WILL IN FACT BE HURT, and this is NOT going to be “the time” it all changes.
As has been stated in threads all over these boards we use denial to protect ourselves from pain. It is hard work accepting things and working thru it and I was applauding the folks that have done it and recognizing that it is a difficult process. It is so easy to remember the good parts of our addicts and I think that is where we follow our hearts. It is in our heads though that we need to see what reality is and step back to avoid the pain despite what are heart would have us believe.
I am not sure why I still feel the intermittent desire to contact her. What I expect to hear, or even want to hear. A small part of me (the codie I guess) still thinks maybe she will see how good she "could" have it and suddenly change (wouldn't THAT be nice (lol)). I know that I am not feeling the urge to contact her to "try again". My mind is clear on that. I think it is just a mixture of the general grieveing of a loss (with remembering the good parts) and just plain compassion. Wanting to be there for someone that I know is hurting and had come to care about deeply.
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