Relations with codependent person...

Old 09-17-2009, 05:53 AM
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Relations with codependent person...

Hi,

this is my first post on this forum, so first of all I would like to greet everybody .
Now, this post might look slightly weird for some people because I am not addicted to alcohol or any drugs either,
but I am looking for help anyway. Sorry if this post is so long, but I tried to make it as short as possible.

The story has begun in January 2008. Then some girl decided to start codependency therapy because of her relationship with alcohol addicted boyfriend. The alcohol has been a problem for 4 years in this relationship. The therapy has led her to abandon this relationship two months later. Accidentaly a month later we have met and started to spend some time together. Once we started to meet, she told me about her codependency and did let me decide
if I want to meet with her any further. I've made a desicion to continue because I realized we pretty much think in the same way and match together in many things. To state it clear- I do not regret the decision up to date (however I didn't know anything about codependency before). We spent lots of time together, she always said she is smiling when she does see me. In the meantime I started to learn as much as I could about codependency. I just wanted to understand some things and how to behave to give her as comfortable feelings as possible to not make her worrying about any dependency to me, to let her make decisions on her own, etc.
Everything looked fine, we spent time together, we called each other very often, we sent more than thousand smses per month, some deep feelings occured on both sides. As a part of therapy she made a decision to change her job and other minor decision were taken as well.

Six months later her therapist suggested to make a next step to an advanced therapy. She decided to start it. Suddenly our relations started to damage slightly. She was more often angry because of many things. Then it was the first time when I started to understand what codependency really is (I was familiar with theory only). I don't know what has happend in this advanced therapy, she didn't want to talk about it and always separated all her codependency problems from me (and I tried to not ask). But while our relations attenuate a bit, she still missed me, wanted to meet, but there was a rising distance between us (because of her job as well- she worked much more than in previous job). I knew she was getting very angry because she couldn't establish the normal relations with me, she was very bad about the distance, but she couldn't fix it. I knew she was affraid as well she could lose me because she couldn't give me what she thought I needed. On my side I have never put any pressure on her, I knew she, as a codependent person, had troubles in making decisions, expressions of feelings and emotions, so I have always accepted all of this because I understood the reasons and knew all of this will take a time. I have always repeated I understand all this and I am not angry about it. She still wanted to meet (as well as I did/do) and decided to take more individual therapy to understand what is going inside her and to work on personality more heavily.

All this took almost a year. This summer she was in hospital during her vacation because of other health problems and it took much longer then we thought. We wanted to spend some days during this vacation together but we of course couldn't. She was very angry about that too. Just right after she left the hospital she attended the therapy meeting and... I lost contact with her. Now I know the things got vary bad and she was desperated. She lost control of herself and her feelings and decided to take care only of herself, she even wanted to abandon the job. This was a month ago. Two weeks ago she started to answer smses, few days ago she even called me (imagine my surprise!) and we started to write just a little more smses again. It seems things are slowly getting back to those before hospital, but that's not as promissing as it could be. I would like to understand why is that, what is going on with her thought and feelings. May be is there a person in similar situation and could make some advice how to follow, how to behave in relation with her, not to make her more angry, how to try to start to work for better relations. Is that something wrong with the therapy or this is normal ?
I don't know what to do and I'm really lost in it, but I know this the last thing I ever wanted- to lose her... She is wonderful person and deserves better life than before like everybody else. Any hint, thought, advice will be very very appreciated. And sorry for my poor english. I am not native.

S.
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Old 09-17-2009, 06:09 AM
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Hi Startled! Welcome!

She is wonderful person and deserves better life than before like everybody else.

This is true for all people - I agree! What I found in learning to break free of my codependency is that only each individual person can decide to make that better life for themselves. I cannot "give" anyone a better life. I can support and love the people I care about and not make their life more difficult but it is up to them how they want to live.

It sounds like your gal is working on some big and difficult issues - and all I can say is the best thing you can do is: let her do that! The best chance for a success in any relationship is if you continue to work on yourself- and allow your partner the dignity and freedom to work on herself.

So, is this relationship, and this person, just the way she is today working for you?

Are you clear on what your personal problems are and are you working on improving yourself?

You asked:
May be is there a person in similar situation and could make some advice how to follow, how to behave in relation with her, not to make her more angry, how to try to start to work for better relations.

I can only say, in my life, my relationships improve when I work on MYSELF and don't try to fix other people or walk on eggshells because they "get angry."

I don't know if that helps - maybe a counselor or therapist can help you get the focus back on you!

peace-
b
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Old 09-17-2009, 06:14 AM
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Welcome to SR!

I do not have experience with one on one counseling for codependency. Hopefully someone will be along with more advice.

I do have experience with recovery. In my experience, recovery requires a lot of personal reflection. Looking at past behaviors, motives, actions, etc...but it is also important to share these discoveries with someone that can be trusted and understands the process. Sharing is a form of expressing and getting the feelings out into the open.


In recovery, the person we choose to share our intermost feelings and emotions with needs to have knowledge of the process and/or experience. In my personal recovery from addiction, I choose to share with others who have had the same addiction. They understand where I have been and what I am going through. I may not find as much support from someone who had only read about my addiction.

During the process of self reflection, it can be distracting to try and be supportive in a relationship with someone other than myself. To be healthy in a personal relationship I need to be healthy in my own skin. To know who I am and appreciate who I am.

I hope you can continue to offer support as a friend. Please stick around and read/post as much as needed.
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Old 09-17-2009, 06:47 AM
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Startled:

Witamy!
(Welcome!) Twój angielski jest bardzo dobry. (Your English is very good.)



I would just like to explain to you that CoDependency does not completely define a person and their problems. There may be many other issues that are affecting your girlfriend and your relationship with her.

I don't know how old your girlfriend is, or how long she has been in therapy, but often, when a person starts therapy or otherwise starts to look within herself, it can be scary for them. There are many things she may be going through and the only way to know what she is going through or experiencing is to just ask her. This may be difficult for you because you have feelings toward this person. Often, our fears hold us back from asking the questions we really want answered. The truth can be scary.

I know that what you are going through is upsetting. The best thing you can do for yourself and your girlfriend is to take good care of yourself. She may just need some time to work through her problems right now.

You can find a book called "CoDependent No More" by Melody Beattie on Google Poland Books.

I hope this helps a little.
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Old 09-20-2009, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Learn2Live View Post
You can find a book called "CoDependent No More" by Melody Beattie on Google Poland Books.
I've already read this book. There is lots of positive energy coming out of this book. But I am not sure it's the right book for her for the time being.
She has a very tough time now. May be I should give this book to her (what do you think ?), but I am almost sure she doesn't want to face me eye to eye because she likely feels guilty she left me in such way (but apparently she had no choice and didn't want to release her anger on me). She made a decision and just trying to be consequent (our meeting could break it)- I do respect this.
I am supportive as much as I can but is this the only thing I can do for now ?

S.
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Old 09-20-2009, 07:37 AM
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I am supportive as much as I can but is this the only thing I can do for now ?


Well, the best thing I ever did for my relationships with others was to get my own head together! By focusing on my own problems and healing myself and changing myself I put myself in the best position to have a healthy relationship or recognize one that I just need to let go....

peace,
b
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Old 09-20-2009, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Bernadette View Post
Well, the best thing I ever did for my relationships with others was to get my own head together! By focusing on my own problems and healing myself and changing myself I put myself in the best position to have a healthy relationship or recognize one that I just need to let go....
Dear Bernadette, I think you're missing the simple fact that I am not codependent nor addicted. I don't need to focus on my own problems because I don't have any (yes, I'm rather lucky man indeed). I don't need to heal nor change myself because I don't have any problems with emotions, feelings and myself either.
The only problem for now is this relationship. And I am focused on it now.
And now I am trying to find out what can I do for this relationship to continue as well as possible and to not injure it in any way. To put the question more straightforward: what codependent person could expect from
a very close friend in such situation ?

S.
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Old 09-20-2009, 11:49 AM
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Copy that.

It is pretty much impossible for any relationship to have problems that are 100% one person's fault. Because it is a "relationship."

If a "relationship" has a problem then each person needs to accept 100% of 50% of the problem....you follow me?

So you ask what a codependent person is expecting from a very close friend in such a situation? Depends on the person! That's an individualized thing. Some people like lots of communication and encouragement and attention - some people like to be left alone with their struggles and encouraged from a distance by letters or email etc. I mean the label "codependent" is just one way of identifying and clustering behaviors in people who are often caught up in relationships with addicts. It does not define an entire person or group of people.

So since I have learned in my life that trying to read people's minds (what codependent person could expect from a very close friend in such situation ?) or trying to alter my behavior to suit someone else's expectations of me are 2 unhealthy activities to engage in, I can only suggest that you:

a. ask her specifically what she wants from you - and believe her answer.
b. work on yourself and your problems since you cannot actually ever fix another person's problems.
c. decide for yourself how much of your mental energy you want to devote to this person, what are you getting out of it?

I find it interesting that you think you have NO problems! I just find that astounding and interesting and very revealing!

Good luck -
b
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Old 09-20-2009, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernadette View Post
It is pretty much impossible for any relationship to have problems that are 100% one person's fault. Because it is a "relationship."

If a "relationship" has a problem then each person needs to accept 100% of 50% of the problem....you follow me?

So you ask what a codependent person is expecting from a very close friend in such a situation? Depends on the person! That's an individualized thing. Some people like lots of communication and encouragement and attention - some people like to be left alone with their struggles and encouraged from a distance by letters or email etc. I mean the label "codependent" is just one way of identifying and clustering behaviors in people who are often caught up in relationships with addicts. It does not define an entire person or group of people.

a. ask her specifically what she wants from you - and believe her answer.
b. work on yourself and your problems since you cannot actually ever fix another person's problems.
c. decide for yourself how much of your mental energy you want to devote to this person, what are you getting out of it?
That's something. Thanks. It seems I just need to search my own feelings and take her personality into account.
However I am not looking for who's failed nor where's the fault- a step back. I am looking for a solution- a step ahead. Anyway you make me think. Thanks again.

Originally Posted by Bernadette View Post
I find it interesting that you think you have NO problems! I just find that astounding and interesting and very revealing!
Well, first of all I don't look for problems trying to find where they're not existent (some people tend to do that...). I am very optimistic person and all the problems I have influence on seem to me solvable. There are usually different ways and workarounds to defeat them so I don't even consider most of problems as problems actually. When I face a problem- I can see at least few solutions from scratch and I am trying to focus just on solutions not on problems themselves.
I am healthy, smiling person- who wants more ?
But now I faced a problem I realized I had no influence on. That's why I'm here and trying to find the way.
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Old 09-20-2009, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Startled View Post
Dear Bernadette, I think you're missing the simple fact that I am not codependent nor addicted. I don't need to focus on my own problems because I don't have any (yes, I'm rather lucky man indeed). I don't need to heal nor change myself because I don't have any problems with emotions, feelings and myself either.

S.

Lucky, indeed.

Then why do you want to run around with the crazy chick?

Not saying anything . . . just saying, yunno?
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Old 09-21-2009, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
Then why do you want to run around with the crazy chick?
I could answer it: because she loves me as well as I do, but I put it this way: because surrender and escape is not my way of solving problems. I feel no fear when facing difficulties.
I knew there were risks. But now I am taking full responsibility of my decision and I am consequent. I am not definitely the person who leaves the boat first when it starts to sink, I am the last after all people are safe. As long as there is a hope, there is a hope. I was with her when she needed me, I was with her in some tough times in her life and she trusted me and I won't let her down now. That's called responsibility.
We did put lots of energy and ourselves into this relationship and abandoning it would be stupid and make it all just wasted. If she would be addicted, it could be the first thing to consider, but she's not, the boat is still on the water. If it happens to be fully under water it will be the time to decide abandon or sink with it, but it's not an issue now.
And finally, she's worth to give her a chance.

S.
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Old 09-21-2009, 08:58 AM
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Startled,

I find it rather rude that you come here asking for our input and when Pelican and Hammer and Bernadette give it to you, you don't listen and you argue with them that they are wrong. What do you want, for us to tell you only what you want to hear?

You don't fool me one bit. I know you very well, as Bernadette and Pelican and Hammer also know you.

I have been looking at you in the mirror for decades.

I don't think you are here, because you are simply trying to help someone.

In my opinion, You just haven't felt enough pain yet. When you do, and you surely will if you continue to try to keep this person in your life, you will come back here for help and then you will see what folks are trying to reveal to you about YOURSELF.

I find that you have a "Holier Than Thou" attitude toward this girl and you are trying to make yourself feel better about YOU. You look at this girl and see she is someone you want to have in your life because you get some self-satisfaction from her. But you don't understand why she is behaving this way:

How can this drug addict not see how great we are and actually want to be with us instead of dumping us? We can't admit that they hurt our egos.

And, Look at this drug addict! They have so many problems, we want to "help" them so that they will be grateful and loving toward us again. We can't admit that their behavior has such an effect on how we feel about ourselves.

You came here for help, didn't you?
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Old 09-21-2009, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Startled View Post
I am not definitely the person who leaves the boat first when it starts to sink, I am the last after all people are safe.

And finally, she's worth to give her a chance.

S.

Welcome!!!

Yeah, I think we are all worth 'giving a chance'.

I read your analogy about the lifeboat, but for folks like us, I think a more fitting analogy can be found in the instructions you find on the airplane.

If the plane loses cabin pressure and the emergency oxygen masks drop down, put yours on first before you attempt to assist fellow passengers with theirs.

Keep coming back, you'll find a lot of support here.
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Old 09-21-2009, 10:55 AM
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Dear Learn2Live,

Originally Posted by Learn2Live View Post
I find it rather rude that you come here asking for our input and when Pelican and Hammer and Bernadette give it to you, you don't listen and you argue with them that they are wrong. What do you want, for us to tell you only what you want to hear?
Well as far as I understood Pelican talked about recovery from addiction experience so it does not fully apply to the issue, however I've read it, accepted and still have it in my mind for sure, because it's very interesting.
Bernadette tried to apply codependency rules to non codependent person. I've read it, accepted and clarified the things.
About Hammer question I have been thinking few hours. He really made me still thinking (as well as Bernadette a post later).
So, I find it rather rude you're trying to persuade I don't listen.
Are you trying to say you know better than me about me ? Isn't that called codependency ?
This is a discussion and both sides' arguments are the main part of it, aren't they ?
But why you release your anger on me ? If the thread makes you angry, just don't read it- it's not a must.

Originally Posted by Learn2Live View Post
I don't think you are here, because you are simply trying to help someone.
Yes, you're right. I do know pretty well I can't help her. And I am *not* looking for help for her. She's the best person to help herself with therapy.

Originally Posted by Learn2Live View Post
In my opinion, You just haven't felt enough pain yet. When you do, and you surely will if you continue to try to keep this person in your life, you will come back here for help and then you will see what folks are trying to reveal to you about YOURSELF.
That is your opinion. I've read it and accepted. Everybody has its rights to have opinions, wrong or right.

Originally Posted by Learn2Live View Post
I find that you have a "Holier Than Thou" attitude toward this girl and you are trying to make yourself feel better about YOU. You look at this girl and see she is someone you want to have in your life because you get some self-satisfaction from her. But you don't understand why she is behaving this way:

How can this drug addict not see how great we are and actually want to be with us instead of dumping us? We can't admit that they hurt our egos.
This is totally wrong presumption in that case. I did some consultation with therapist. I have a very strong personality so I don't need anybody to make me feel better. I do have influence on my own feelings only and no one else.
She's great human being, the best I have known up to date and that is why she's important to me, not because of her problems which I can't even name (she always cleverly isolated her problems and her therapy from me and all tough times I talked about *were not* related to codependency). Her problems are her problems, she needs to solve them on her own.


Originally Posted by Learn2Live View Post
And, Look at this drug addict! They have so many problems, we want to "help" them so that they will be grateful and loving toward us again. We can't admit that their behavior has such an effect on how we feel about ourselves.
You're trying to find codependency where it does not apply. The same schema does not always fit every case. See above.
I state that again: I am not here to help her, so your presumption is not true from the beginning.

Originally Posted by Learn2Live View Post
You came here for help, didn't you?
But I don't ask for help I would rather call it a 'how to support'. I am just trying to find the best way how to be supportive but not disturbing.

If you're all saying the best support is no support, be sure I will take it into consideration. That will also require a time to think.
But I'm sure a discussion is just better than no discussion. Maybe somebody finds something useful in it some day.

S.
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Old 09-21-2009, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by sailorjohn View Post
If the plane loses cabin pressure and the emergency oxygen masks drop down, put yours on first before you attempt to assist fellow passengers with theirs.
Oh yes, you're extremely right. Your analogy matches better.
However you cannot simply escape from the plane as it is possible on boat...

S.
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Old 09-21-2009, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Startled View Post
I could answer it: because she loves me as well as I do, but I put it this way: because surrender and escape is not my way of solving problems. I feel no fear when facing difficulties.
I knew there were risks. But now I am taking full responsibility of my decision and I am consequent. I am not definitely the person who leaves the boat first when it starts to sink, I am the last after all people are safe. As long as there is a hope, there is a hope. I was with her when she needed me, I was with her in some tough times in her life and she trusted me and I won't let her down now. That's called responsibility.
We did put lots of energy and ourselves into this relationship and abandoning it would be stupid and make it all just wasted. If she would be addicted, it could be the first thing to consider, but she's not, the boat is still on the water. If it happens to be fully under water it will be the time to decide abandon or sink with it, but it's not an issue now.
And finally, she's worth to give her a chance.

S.
ahhhh, ok. Drama queen AND sense of adventure.

well, let us know how that turns out.

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Old 09-21-2009, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
ahhhh, ok. Drama queen AND sense of adventure.
Ahh, you haven't read 2 posts above

S.
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Old 09-21-2009, 01:26 PM
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Startled,

I am not angry at all. I am sorry my words came across as angry. I can be very blunt but I assure you I am not angry at you or judging you, I don't even know you.

Are you trying to say you know better than me about me?
No, I don't know you. I read your post and see things you don't see.

Isn't that called codependency?
Codependency is many things. As you have said, you only knew about codependency from a theoretical standpoint. Many people on Sober Recovery know about codependency personally and are trying to answer your post accordingly.

This is a discussion and both sides' arguments are the main part of it, aren't they?
Yes. And BOTH you and I are communicating with eachother, not arguing. I don't argue. I tell you the way I see it. You are free to agree or disagree with anything I say. It won't hurt my feelings.

And I am *not* looking for help for her... I state that again: I am not here to help her, so your presumption is not true from the beginning.... But I don't ask for help I would rather call it a 'how to support'. I am just trying to find the best way how to be supportive but not disturbing.
I apologize; I must have misunderstood your original post when you said that you were "looking for help anyway." What kind of help are you looking for if you are not looking for help for her? I realize you would rather not call "support" the same as "help" but it is the same. Supporting someone is a form of helping someone.

I do not look for codependency. I know codependency very well. What I am trying to tell you is, although you say you are a very strong person, that you do not allow oother people to affect your feelings about yourself, are resilient and persistent, are not angry, etc., many of the things you have written about yourself in your posts are descriptions of codependency.

There are many many facets of codependency. And while there are some basic characteristics of codependency, everyone behaves differently. Also, although many people would disagree with me, it is my opinion that Codependency is more a description of a way of relating to others and not a characteristic of a person.

What I am saying is, there are very specific things you say in your posts that indicate that you may be relating to this woman in a codependent manner. Your defenses are up when it comes to this codependency thing.

You keep saying that SHE IS CODEPENDENT but you are NOT. Startled, In order for there to be a CODEPENDENT relationship, there must be TWO people involved, both of whom are DEPENDENT on very specific attitudes, feelings, and behaviors of the other person. You sound to me like you are involved in a Codependent relationship whether you would like to admit it or not.

It may help you to put down your guard for a moment or two and allow yourself to think not whether or not you ARE codependent, but rather, perhaps, For what reason are you so concerned about simply "supporting" this woman and your relationship with her, that you are going out of your way to talk to a therapist, read books about how to help her, and searching on the internet about Recovery from addiction and codependency? Especially since you say she doesn't even want to talk to you face-to-face?

We are very much like you and you are very much like us. We, as "codependents" wonder what that other person is thinking and feeling, why that other person just disappeared, see the other person as a great and valuable person, get along very well with them, love them so much we only want to help them, do our best not to make them angry, want to know the best way to behave around them, focus on the relationship, and blame things like the other person's therapist or family to explain the other person's behavior. We also think the other person is a wonderful person and deserves better in life. We agree with and understand everything you have said about yourelf, this woman, the relationship, and the situation you are in. We have lived it and talked about it, and helped others through it, many of us since we were children.

You indicated that you did not know what to do and that you felt really lost. I have to say that this is an indication to me that you ARE allowing your feelings to be affected by this woman's behavior.

Here is your response to Bernadette:
Dear Bernadette, I think you're missing the simple fact that I am not codependent nor addicted. I don't need to focus on my own problems because I don't have any (yes, I'm rather lucky man indeed). I don't need to heal nor change myself because I don't have any problems with emotions, feelings and myself either. The only problem for now is this relationship. And I am focused on it now.
What you have said to Bernadetter is classic Denial. If you want to "support" your friend, you may want to look into "Denial" and what that means, and see how it applies to YOU. Or, ask someone here and they will discuss it with you.

I wish you well. Take care.
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Old 09-21-2009, 03:29 PM
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In my own personal opinion, the majority of us here are codependent and we are struggling to recover ourselves. If we knew the answers to your questions we would not be here. This is like going to the AA forum and asking them how to deal with an active alcoholic. They will all tell you that each person needs to work on their own recovery and not someone elses.

We can each tell you how we are dealing with our own recovery, but could not tell you how the people around us are dealing or how they should deal with it. In my opinion, she is doing the right thing by not dragging you into her mess because she needs to figure things out on her own. The best thing you can do is be there when she wants to talk about things and don't pressure her in any way. She probably doesn't know how to have a healthy relationship or it flat out scares her. Most of us codies need chaos in our life to feel normal.
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Old 09-21-2009, 06:24 PM
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The wonderful thing about our site here, SR, is that each of us has our own unique path. Some of us are new to recovery for ourselves or our loved ones, some have been at it awhile, some have fought it tooth and nail.

It's always best if we simply share our own experience, strength and hope if we have some similar things that have happened in our own lives. When a topic or thread starts to disintegrate into disecting sentences and inuendos, it's time to move onto other things.

If you have some good ESH to share, then by all means, please continue to do so.
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