IPT

So I woke up this am and was reflecting. I was missing my ex, her smile, her pretty face, soft skin, and the intimacy and comfort of having someone close to you in life.

Then I thought about just how many times my ex actually told me, pretty much straight out information that should have told me to move on, but I didn’t let go. She told me she wasn’t “in a good place to be in a relationship” (amongst many other things that I thought “we” could change or work thru if she just tried and we did it together). Still I have this desire to email her, tell her I miss her, that I care about her, feel for sad for her and where (I think at least) she is going (in life). It breaks my heart, brings tears to my eyes. I cannot even fathom what the parents here experience, or those with many more years invested than me.

Then there is the angry side that is mad that she lied to me. That wonders if she ever cared at all. As I look at the posts here I realize her addiction was not nearly as severe as many others. I could leave cash lying around without worries. In fact I once had pain pills for a hip injury that sat on my dining room table for like a year or more untouched. I think her issues were more related to her depression, self proclaimed “self hatred”, and co-dependency with her family than the drugs…but who really knows. More than once she told me “it’s my addiction and I am ashamed”…

I guess I am just sad, still sorting things out and felt the need to write and vent. You folks always have so much good experience and wisdom to share. This is just so confusing sometimes. At the least, it sure isn’t easy. Thanks for listening

URMYEVERYTHING

One question.... Did she tell you all of these while in active addiction?? If so, to better help you move forward, you cannot believe a single word an addict tells you while in active addiction. They will pull you in and tell you all you want to hear to keep the game/supply going and then drop you once you put pressure on them or catch onto their behavior. Possibly understanding an addict's behavior while in active addiction will help you understand that the ISSUE IS NOT YOU at all.

I'm sorry you are going through this... I know the emotions all too well.

rayofsunshine

This too shall pass......

I think we have days with "cravings" for our addict... just like they do when they are
trying to stay clean. It's what we do with those thoughts that determine whether we
follow through and do them... or let them go and find something else to occupy our
time and thoughts. Maybe go for a walk, out for an ice cream cone, out with friends.. or turn the tv up real loud and watch a good movie.

I know its hard. Hope tomorrow is a better day for you!

truthhurts

Have you ever heard of that book "He's Just Not That Into You?" Very interesting point of view. I thought of it after I read this part of your post

If she told you that, why on earth wouldn't you believe her?

It's one thing to be led on by someone in a relationship who says they're committed, says they want to be with you in a relationship, but then acts like they don't...but if someone is telling you the things that she told you upfront...she's not lying.

Many people make excuses for people who choose not to engage in a relationship, such as "he thinks we're too different," or "she thinks I'm too good for her," etc. IME, I have found that people who are upfront about these things are really telling the truth!

You sound like a nice guy with lots to offer. Why not work a bit on yourself and then see if you can meet a girl who actually IS willing, ready and able to have a healthy relationship with you, and who appreciates you for who you are?

Hang in there.

teke

sounds to me like maybe in her mind she is trying to be as honest with you as she can. i believe depression sometimes could be an excuse for an addict to use but i also think that depression comes with addiction. i was ALWAYS terribly depressed when i was crashing, craving and in between times of using. thats how it was for me anyway.

i do understand that she is very depressed and is full of self hate but for me, that went with addiction territory. when she said "its the addiction" i believe that is what she meant. addiction has a mind of its own, it won't let you do what you know is right to do only those things you don't want to do. its so hard trying to explain what being an addict is like to a non user. its seemed to me at the time, that addiction literally had complete control over my every being.

i think she is actually saying that because of her addiction, she can be who you and her both think she should be and probably want to be.going to get help just don't always register to an addict like it does for a non user. i don't think she is consciencely choosing drugs over you, its her addiction thats choosing for her. in active addiction, sometimes it hard to see that the addict has a choice because it feels like the addiction is in total control. its so hard to explain.

in my opinion, maybe you are thinking the way you are about her feelings because you are a non user and is not yet able to hear what she means when she speaks even though you do hear the words she uses. since i'm an ra, i think i hear a deeper meaning in what she is saying to you. i don't think this is about you. i think its just what she say it is. i imagine i'm kind of confusing right now, i'm just having a hard time try to find words that stress what i'm trying to say here. sorry if i'm wrong.

rose

IPT,
I have flash backs as well, I can be doing something, standing in a room, place, outside, but my mind blanks everything out of my vision. I guess something triggers me, in comes a flash back of a time, good or bad but my mind sees nothing but this time. It is kind of like a dazed out of this world feeling and then back I come. It is so weird how you can be standing eyes wide open and not seeing anything but the vision in your mind. As time has gone on, it happens less and less.

IPT, have you ever thought about going to talk to someone. I just see you grieving so bad, trying so hard to get over it. I think it is consuming every waking thought you have...I know you have come along, but are you putting yourself into a place in recovery that you have not reached yet, only because you think this is where you should be.

Without knowing you other than here on this form, I know that you are such a caring, loving, giving person. Do you think that inside you are suffering from regection? Making you feel bad about yourself. Since this has happened are there other areas in your life that you find yourself shying away from, for the fear that you are going to do wrong, lost yourself confidence over it.

I experience so much of this and needed help, plus I so wanted to sit and talk with someone, someone that I could just get it all out and for someone to really listen to what I was saying. I took me a couple of shots at finding the right person, but did it feel so good. These people are professionals, know how to listen and ask you questions that really make you think. There is nothing better than the feeling of starting to get your spirit back. We need our spirit, without it, it makes it pretty darn hard to live our lives, our spirit makes us whole again.

Rose

IPT

This is taking a long time to grasp. The fact is she hides it so well that it is literally hard for me to see her as an addict. They are masters at disguising themselves. More about this at the end.

Thanks…I have been major busy. Have lots of projects going, meeting friends, and making new ones. It’s just that even then there are these triggers, things that remind me of her and it washes over me that feeling of I don’t even know what. Dread, fear, disgust. It gets better and less often every day now though.

Thanks… yeah, crazy stuff right. She really didn’t say stuff like that often, except during breakdowns. The first year was good. Really none of that, or nowhere near the level it got too. Still, I probably should have listened. We spent tons of time together. There were signs then too, but subtle and I didn’t really see them. It was at about a year when I figured out she was smoking….daily, and with her family, mother included, that I should have ran. By I was invested though. She also straight up told me they were all going to quit. I knew nothing of watch the actions, forget about the words at that time or for a long time afterwards.

It’s not that I didn’t believe her, it’s just that I thought “we” could work it thru. Dysfunctional thinking I know now. I am in a good place in life, am motivated, disciplined, and I thought I could “help” her get where she wanted. At the same time that would then fulfill my fantasy that I had built up. It was hard to let go of, or even see. Also her family itself went into a doward spiral over the next two years with more drama than I have ever seen. That sucked her away even more and compunded things in a big way. (for example her mom left an Alcoholic b/f of 15 years because he asked my g/f to sleep with him. Now her mom is all alone and she has guilt that is somehow her fault...it was a mess).

Sadly I agree. I took it personally, still have a hard time separating it (more about that after the next quote). I truly do believe that she was not trying to hurt me. She grew up in such a messed up dysfunctional world that she just has adopted these actions and compensations to protect herself and survive (lying, being deceptive so you don’t get hurt, using drugs to dull the pain feelings and self loathing). I do not know if she truly sees that her actions (addiction) are playing a role in her overall unhappiness. Well, maybe she does see that, but she downplays it. The bigger issue I think is that when she tries to move away from it she has no coping skills, or support system to help her thru the very difficult times and she just skips right back into it. Since I knew her (4+ years) she has gone to three different therapists. She starts, maybe even goes for a few months, and then let’s go of it. When I left her in April she FINALLY went to someone we had recommended. They changed her depression meds which she said helped a lot. Of course she told me she starting “intense psychotherapy” for the PTSD they feel she has from her childhood. However, this person was expensive and she had no job so pretty quickly she quit. Quite possible she just started it in an attempt to put a good foot forward and lure me back into the relationship. However, I cannot anyone with the amount of internal pain she has not wanting to gte better. She takes the first step...then, I don't know. Gets overwhelmed, afraid?

And finally (sorry for this crazy long reply)….we went to therapy together a few years ago. After that didn’t work out and I was struggling with all this I decided to go back and see that same person. For me it was a huge benefit that he knew her. As always there are so many levels to things. He was amazed at my tenacity for holding onto this girl since I do not exhibit this stuff anywhere else in my life. Rejection is an issue and probably rooted back to one of my first loves who cheated and lied to me when I was 16 or 17. Of course there is more to it than that but this women presented herself in the perfect physical package for me. Then was able to help fuel, maintain, and engage the fantasy that I created about the relationship. Which on a lot of levels was also what she craved and wanted as well. Unfortunately, I was not looking at the reality of what we had (and she helped that by hiding most of it) and she is unhealthy enough, too deep in addiction, or incapable at the moment to take the steps and actions required to get where she wants.

The fact is as much as I still struggle to get away from this I am light years from where I was. I have more and more moments of peace and clarity. Last week my therapist and I were talking. I am a successful person. A lot of what I am struggling with is the failure. I am not used to that, and addiction is a beast I CANNOT WIN AGAINST. The problem is unconsciously I still confuse the fact that what made me lose her was her addiction, and her problems, not my choices, actions, or me myself. I still just see this a “regular relationship” and her as a “normal” person. Then the conflict arises because that is not reality. Add to that my tremendous love and compassion for people and you get what I got… a very dangerous and unwinable situation.

For those of you who actually read this far…and those that commented, thanks, and sorry for the length. It’s therapeutic for me though to work thru this .

peaceteach

It's all good, IPT. That's the beauty of this online place, instant therapy just when we need it. Working through it, putting it out here, and letting it go. Sometimes we just are barely able to maintain our "current" place on the climb out of codependency, and a mere inch from slipping backward. Other times it seems we are taking great strides forward. Don't beat yourself up about it, just let it flow through you and out of you so that you don't stay with the doldrums too much. You don't HAVE to hang onto guilt or sadness; it truly is a choice for you whether to stay put in the negative or give yourself permission to enjoy life as this new (and single) person. Go at your own pace, IPT, but don't go so slow that you forget there is a wonderful life awaiting you, free of addiction and its negative pull.

bluejay6

She has done a masterful job, IPT, of failing to be a mature, sober, spiritually sound human being in relationship with you and of brilliantly manipulating you into feeling, ultimately, PITY for her, which has kept you hooked....hooked because you think she is a lost waif and you are the prince who can rescue her.

IPT, she is so cunningly powerful, you have no idea. The fact that she still owns you attests to it.

Someday, when you break out of this enchantment, I think you will see her as she really was, and is.

In fairytales, witches often ensnare their victims by pretending to be in some way wounded and in need of "help."

Her wounding may be real---we ALL have woundedness--but how she USES her woundedness is what has seduced and imprisoned you.

I think someday you will know this.

Bluejay

URMYEVERYTHING

IPT,
I guess the biggest struggle is that both of you WANTED the same thing out of a relationship but only one of you was healthy enough to follow through on the promises.
An addict can say they WANT recovery until they put through the effort. An addict can say they WANT a relationship that is healthy but unable to just do it because their addiction stands in the way. Addicts, yes, are still people but in their active addiction cannot follow through to the next day or the next year and so forth. They are in the moment. The moment of getting high even if they are able to play it off or disguise it.

I'm sorry you are going through this. I hope you find peace and serenity within yourself to remain strong. You sound like a good person that has a lot to offer to someone who will appreciate all of it.

Keep coming here... we don't care how long your posts are... so stop apologizing for that. Vent all you want. I know the feeling.

IPT

You guys/gals all rock. Thanks for your words, wisdom and sharing your own experiences.




This hit home hard. I have plenty of idea how powerful she is. In fact as I was driving today I felt bad for her and that I (the "only good person" in her life) was no longer there for her. That pit in my stomach grew a notch. Then I remembered what you all have pointed out. She has choosen to not have me there and she is doing just fine (well if you consider being in a severly dysfunctional family, out of work, and doing drugs daily "fine" she is...but that is her choice). For sure that was part of the manipulation and the "hook".

Another thing that is tough for me as I come out of my fog of denial and DO see her for who she truely was it angers me, makes me sick, and question myself as too how I could have let that all happen (and for so long).

Ah, in fact that is EXACTLY what I did at Easter. She didn;t come back and I was just done. I was a little angry, a little sad, but in a strange way at peace. It was clear. It was her twisting the scenario and luring me back in and leaving me that has me here. I am aware of the problem (my feelings of being abandoned - "rejected by a reject" if you will) and am working on reminding myself that really this was MY CHOICE and I was the one who initiated it all. I seem to forget that.

lexington

A large part of addiction is that the addict wants to believe that s/he can live a normal life and function as a happy, healthy person without having to stop whatever they're using. The fact that you reflected that 'perfect' image back at her probably reinforced that belief, so she was only too happy to keep you in the dark. It's just another game that the addict plays (I hate to use the word "game" though, since from her point of view it was probably a matter of survival)

I've got it easier than you do because I was with my ex for months instead of years, but since I've accepted that his love was never really 'love', my own love for him has dissolved... and so has my hate. I can look at his actions more dispassionately now and know he's just sick. Hopefully you will come to that point some time soon, too Until then I think you should keep looking for support, since you obviously need it.

One thing I'm concerned about is that if you don't stop loving this girl then you might start romanticizing her addiction. I've been at the stage you're at before (I guess in some ways I still am) and I've found the prospect of being around people like my ex more appealing than it used to be. I guess the risk is that you (or I) could end up throwing yourself into another twisted relationship, because there are still so many loose ends from the last one. I've even been wondering if it isn't worth getting in touch with my ex just for closure... not like he'd bother to return my calls. Nobody else that I know thinks this is a good idea, though.

lost84

ITP im so sorry your feeling down I can relate at times it does hurt.. I hope you've been strong enough NOT to send the email to your ex.

wzarecky

women are tough most of the time....LOL........ keep your head up and straight and good things will come to to you bro...... I was with a girl for 2 years that saw me through the worse of my insanity of addiction and she moved on and ever since I've been clean I've met a new girl that is awesome....... just worry about your self for now....

IPT

I relate to all that you said but this part stuck out. This is the first, and last relationship I have and will ever have like this. When I honestly look at it I am not even sure I love her. How does one love someone who treats you like that? Love is based on respect isn't it? Maybe I loved the idea of her, or responded to the strong emotional pull of fighting against the rejection or gaining her accpetance or time. There is nothing appealing about it to me (the highs (emotional) and sex were great when it happened, but the low in between just made the price too high to pay by the end!). I am used (not trying to be arrogant or conceded here) to meeting women pretty easily and with a little effort being able to have the choice of it I want to pursue it or not. She was one that kept distance (or really became distant after a time) and I think I engaged into the chase...it just became perpetual and with someone who will NEVER (at least not in a reasonable time frame) will be available emotionally for a relationship. It was a losing proposition I just didn’t know it at the time, or what I was really up against. You know if she had more friends, was more of an overt partier, out going social person I would have split a LONG time ago (because it would have been obvious that she was not with ehr mom or sick, or whatever the excuse of the day was). She was meek, quiet, few friends, mostly just stayed around her family. Hated being in social environments. It made it a little easier to trust her and also at the same time to get trapped in the pity thing.

I recently went on a date with someone, we had a great time. She was cool and said she was interested, but then didn't really follow thru. Usually like Pavlov’s dog I’d of been on the chase to “win” her over. Nope, I just decided she is not into it and I let go. Lesson learned… I don’t ever want to go thru this stuff again. I am very much looking forward to being with someone healthy.

I have not emailed her or contacted her (my ex)... I am holding strong. Deep down I know nothing really good or useful will come of it. Either it will be more lies, just make me feel bad, or confirm things and make it hurt it more. Lose, lose, lose..

Abundance

IPT... you are coming along! Way to put lessons learned into practice!

I have had a few men interested in me, but they so much as sneeze the wrong way - they don't stand a chance! It's incredible to me just how picky I am, yet I had put up with so much garbage for so long.

Hindsight is 20/20.... and I see just how much I got caught up in our connection and our love... it was something like I had never experienced.... I justified ALL of it because of our flame. Someone so much as thinks that we have a *connection* (early on) and I am running like the wind!!!

I haven't been in contact with my x ... His mother and I have emailed - but we don't talk about him. I don't know if I'll be able to keep it up... not asking about him. I'll have to be careful when to write/respond - as I might find myself in a weak moment asking about him - and then things get awkward.

You mentioned something about how your x having little social activity and mainly with family - made you feel more comfortable and trusting. Meanwhile, you are social- yes? I find that the hermits are ones to look out for - because why is it they don't have many friends? Ya know? I think it speaks volumes when you meet someone who has different personalities with different friends. I think friends of friends are also very telling. Family - not so much- because we can't choose our family!

Also - speaking of chase.... I think that has a lot to do with it. A challenge. I know with me - that if I'm not being wanted or desired - it can become a chase... like re-living junior high again! sigh I chalk it up to being a capricorn.... i'm growing younger in maturity not older! However, I too, have learned some valuable lessons and intend on having the knowledge of btdt - and choosing WISELY!

And right now..... I'm choosing ME!

IPT

You know I tend to have a lot of friends that I don't see all that much. I tend to prefer a more mellow less social lifestyle and they are usually tied up with thier family or significant others anyway. That was part of the draw to her, she wasn't a social butterfly and didn't want the going out all the time sort of lifestyle many people do. Though, yeah, it should have been a red flag that she had so few friends. I may not see them everyday, but I do have a fairly wide circle of friends that I keep in touch with.

I am glad that you are doing so well by the way!

kj3880

IPT,
Can a bring something that stands out about your thread to your attention?

I notice that you continually bring up the fact that this woman meets some type of physical beauty ideal that you hold dear. Her soft skin, pretty face...how she looked the way you want a woman to look. This seems so very important to you.

The looks. They fade. I've found in my many relationships that looks are about the least important thing about a partner in the long run. Making looks a big part or even the most important part of your "partner selection process" can sabotage your mating life. Seriously.

I'm not saying that you should pick a woman you find unattractive, because that's doomed to fail, but just....broaden your horizons next time around. If you have, as I suspect, a very specific physical "type" based on a past romantic ideal, you are going to fall for a body instead of a person. That's not a great idea. And it severely limits the pool of possible girls you can choose from. Try broadening your perception of beauty with some fantacizing using some...different images to think of. And every time a romantic fantasy involving your ex pops into your head (epecially sexual) try snapping a rubber band sharply and painfully against your own wrist. Reprogram your ideal. Open it up a bit.

At 45, looks are almost irrelevent to me in dating. I find intelligence, kindness, and humour to be attractive and I can fall for men of different looks, ages, races, and occupations if they possess those qualities I find appealing. I work backwards now, spending time with a man first as a friend. If I like him as a friend, maybe I'll consider him for something more. It seems to be going better for me this new way.

IPT

Bingo....at the risk of sounding like a conceded idiot I am going to be openly honest here (hell, my entire life has been laid out here anyway. I am okay with that if it helps me recover). I was speaking to my therapist about this the other day.

When I spoke to an old friend of mine the other day (from high school 20+ years ago - a RA btw) about the end of this relationship his response was “well you’ve never had a problem meeting women anyway”… my current friends say the same thing. They go further and say part of the lure of this girl was that I couldn’t “have” her. On some level they are probably right. Actually on a lot of levels they are probably right. A few times when she got semi serious I wondered if it was what I really wanted (because my ego was satisfied and I was looking at reality).

This is where the ego gets involved and it is on such a deep level it is unreal, visceral, totally unconscious. My responses to her rejections are like a Vietnam Vet jumping when he hears a car backfire – unconscious and primitive. The first therapist I saw missed that whole thing. His goal was for me to have a plan or response to her actions. The current therapist’s goal is to get my self-worth and ego detached from her and her responses. To see how sick she is and this has nothing to do with me, what I do, or my worth.

Easier said than done….. I have never had a big problem meeting women, still don’t. I guess on some level I have over the years associated some of my worth with my looks. If I am not with a good looking person what does that say about me or my looks? I'd be lying if I said it doesn't feel good when some guy see's your girlfriend and says "dang, that's your girlfriend? She is hot". Of course there is way more to a person than looks, but lets face it on some level looks count. It's well documented that taller more attractive people get paid more than those less so. Sad, but true.

So, at the very depth of all this that is a role, a part of this, and something I am well aware of working on. For 24 years or so though that has been part of me. I look back at some of the amazing women I have been with in the past that I let go because of looks and I cringe. Hindsight is 20/20, but still it is an issue for me.

That is a lot of years of conditioning to go and try and change. Additionally, as my therapist pointed out my ex was also like the girlfriend of Narcissus. Apparently she just molded and did whatever he wanted..she had no personality of her own but just appeased him. Of course that made him feel great about himself. In a lot of ways when my ex was around that was exactly what she did…either out of guilt, or that she really didn’t know who she was and wanted to be what I wanted her to be. That was the "high", the drug...the beautiful women who wanted to be exactly what I wanted her to be, except she couldn't do it, it wasn't her even though we both wanted it to be.

Oh lord, what a twisted tangled mess. Least you all think I am just posting here and not doing some serious self inspection and work out here offline . I am at depths of my being I didn’t even know where in there……well, maybe I knew but never really got into them looked at them like I am now. A lot of what has been said on here helped me get there too. In fact your post reminded me of that session and I hadn't really thought about it again until now...thank you.

kj3880

I'm glad you are taking a look at it. I have a few tricks I used to get myself over a physical ideal I used to fall for every time. I used to love a really tall, trim, dark-haired, blue-eyed, pale-skinned, Irish-featured type. Very specific. Very limiting. Here is what I started doing:

1. When I'd go home from a date, I close my eyes and imagine the conversations coming out of someone who looked different, maybe an old man, and see how I felt about what was said during the date. Some of the selfish remarks and attitudes the men I went on dates with were much less acceptable when you divorced their personality from their hot bod. Crazy.

2. I'd really try listening on dates. Most people will tell you what they're all about. We just don't listen, or we hear only the parts we want to hear. Play back the whole tape of the conversation and you might be amazed at what the person said. Even try writing some of it down and looking at it objectively when the person isn't there.

3. Spend time with people of the opposite sex just as friends. Falling in love with a friend is a pretty nice way to go. You know they care about you and have your best interests at heart. After all, you wanted to spend time with them just based on their personality, so there are no nasty surprises the way there are when you choose a person based on his/her looks.

4. Put a rubber band on your wrist and snap it when you begin obsessing about your ex.

5. Make it a rule not to talk about your ex with new dates. Nothing puts a woman off more than the scent of a recent ex hanging about your mind.

6. Keep it casual for quite a while. After all, what's the rush.

7. Pray to God to remove the obsession. He never fails us. Although sometimes it seems like it takes time to answer a prayer, there is a reason for that, and we don't always know what that is.

Love,
KJ