Cowgirl1265

My mentally ill H, from whom I am separated, keeps asking me questions like "Why did you say such and such?" He wants to analyze every converstaion we have. He sent me an email the other day that read:

"Our interactions over the last week or so seem to have taken a new direction. I feel they have turned a bit sour. Has something changed? Have I done something that would warrant this new direction? Can you shed some light on that for me? I'm a bit confused as to what exactly would've brought this on. "

This followed a week where he came to the house to drop the kids off and asked me several times if it was OK with me that the cats had jumped on the counter, I tried to ignore him but finally I snapped at him because I didn't feel it was his job to worry about that. He doesn't live here. This was also the week that he said he didn't think it was OK for me to ask him to let me know before he came to the house.

My reaction to this is to think that the email is manipulative. I don't think I should have to explain everything I say and do. But when I try to talk to him about it he gets angry and insists that it is not codie behavior, that he needs to understand why I said or did somethingso that he knows how to react. My gut tells me that's not true but I'm having a hard time putting into words WHY I don't think that's true. I'm so codependent I have a hard time trusting my instincts; I'm not sure if my initial reaction is truth-based or if I'm avoiding something I should be facing. Does that make sense? What would your reaction be to that email?

I just got off the phone with him where I was trying to say that I didn't feel it necessary to explain everything I said or how I was feeling when I said it; we discusssed the cat/counter incident and he tried to tell me there was nothing wrong with what he said...I got so frustrated and mad I had to get off the phone.

Please tell me I'm not crazy. Or tell me that I am and tell me how a non-codependent person would respond to this.

Astro

I doubt you're crazy, in addition to being an alcoholic I'm also a codependent, so I'll let someone else reply about that. All I can really share is what I'd try to get my ex to believe when I drank and when I was in early recovery.

It seemed really simple and cunning for me. If I get you to question your sanity, it takes the focus off my insanity. Make sense? Or maybe I should phrase it "stop looking at me and blaming me, let's turn it back on you". I also tried to make my ex feel stupid, which I thought would elevate my status and make me look better. Anything to take the spotlight off me, my shortcomings and character defects, and my disease.

So who's the crazy one now? Me. Or at least I can look back and see that now.

In addition to AA I also attend CoDA, so my understanding of how to handle a situation like this would be to detach from the communications. Easier said than done for me. For the past week I've locked myself in rollercoaster email battles with my ex over custody issues and educational matters. I oughta know better, but.......it's "progress, not perfection".

Barbara52

You aren't crazy. Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise.

Remember you don't have to explain your words or actions to anyone unless you fell it is necessary. You cannot make him "understand" any more than you can make him do anything else. He also cannot "make" you think or feel anything. We all think and feel and act on our own.

The whole thing with the cats sounds to me like an excuse to enagage you in a pointless converstaion. Manipulation indeed. Personally, I would choose not to engage. I would likely say something along the lines of "I am done talking about this and end the conversation if he wanted to continue on about it. Remember, No is a complete sentence.

Learn2Live

Hey Cowgirl,

I don't think your reactions to him have ANYTHING to do with codependency. I think your anger and frustrations with him stem from something else entirely. Feel what your gut is telling you, then look into your heart. Identify your FEELINGS about your husband (NOT what you think or what you're tired of or what you can't live with anymore). Then, wait a day and do it again. Do it again and again until you have your answer. Remember, trust your instincts, follow your heart. (Notice this doesn't include anything about THOUGHTS).

Um, OK, I AM crazy, alcoholic, addicted, AND codependent. I don't remember ever TRYING to MAKE ANYONE feel anything or think anything or try to confuse them in any way. I just had a lot of issues and was one big mess. I obviously don't know this guy, and have never seen what he does, and I'm not you or in your shoes, but when I read your post, what he said sounded OK to me. I've asked these kinds of things many many times. I still do. The fact that he has mental illness and is even aware of himself and has it together enough to ask this stuff tells me he cares.

I don't see why this would make you mad or drive you nuts or anything. Is he afraid of the divorce? Is he lonely in his apartment? Does he miss you? Does he miss the interaction with you? Have you been mad at him or short with him? Didn't you try to set your boundary with him for the first time?

Your boundary-setting is a Major CHANGE for him. Not only is he addicted, and codependent, he's got MH problems too. To me it sounds like he has noticed some change, however subtle, in your behavior and he is seeking reassurance that "we're Okay." Didn't you say he is suspicious that you have a boyfriend? Perhaps he is still afraid that you will find someone else and he is asking this and wanting to know if he did anything to make you mad or something.

Also, I WAY overanalyze as many of you can probably tell. It makes me good at my job but drives boyfriends CRAZY. I don't do it on purpose. It's just the way my brain is wired. He's probably anxious and wants to know your FEELINGS behind your WORDS.

Why does it bother you that he asked if it's OK if the cat gets on the counter? Why do you think he is asking you to explain everything? Is that what he is really doing, asking you to explain everything? Of course he answered you that he didn't think there was anything wrong with what he said; you just told him YOU felt it wasn't necessary to explain it. Is he asking you for help in understanding and internalizing these things because he feels it is necessary for HIM and then you turn around answering "No, it isn't?" Or when he talked to you about the cat on the counter was he yelling at your or something?

I can relate to the words you say he has said but I obviously didn't hear the tone or inflection of his voice. Hope this helps some.

Cowgirl1265

L2L, that is a different take. Thank you.

I know I tend to react to him in anger and frustration. I am still working through a great deal of anger about the last years of our relationship; loss of my friends and family who wouldn't come to my home because he made them so uncomfortable, constant anxiety and fear reactions from his constant outbursts and tempter tantrums. I "feel" like he ruined my quality of life; in reality, *I* did that to myself by staying - but I am fairly new in the process of sifting through and getting down to forgiving me, him, everyone. I haven't forgiven him yet.

When he asked the question about the cats, I had just gotten home, the dogs were seeking attention, the kids were seeking attention, the cats were jumping up to the counter seeking attention. I was trying to take off my coat and shoes and put my bags down on the counter and put my lunch stuff in the sink...his tone of voice was very agitated. OCD is one of his MH issues and he has big issues with dirt and germs. I know that he was not asking me mildly; he was asking because HE had a problem with it. I felt like I was being pressured to DO something about it when I was already trying to do a million other things and I snapped at him. I shouldn't have. But it made me mad. His constant efforts to microcontrol his environment drove me up the wall. I felt like I was coming out of my skin trying to make sure that the kids/dogs/whatever didn't set him off, because if they did he would start yelling and screaming at everyone. His clear anxiety with the cats on the counter triggered me.

I don't want to live that life anymore. I don't want a relationship with him anymore. He keeps seeking hope that we will get back together, he wants to microanalyze everything I say to him to find out how he can get me back and I feel pressured. My reaction to pressure is to push it away. Although I'm very codependent in that I feel like it is my responsibility to fix and manage everyone, I resent it and I feel angry doing it. When someone tries to pin me down on anything I will act almost like a coyote in a trap to get away from that perception of pressure. I HATE feeling pressured. I get defensive. Basically, I don't want to have these conversations with him. He wants to have them. If I meet his need, I feel angry and pressured and crazy. If I don't meet his need then he is discombobulated and anxious and unhappy. I just want off this roller coaster.

catlovermi

Sounds sorta like reverse gaslighting (google it) to me. Whatever you would tell him, he would claim it's not true. Until you are either frustrated and out of control, or confused and out of control. Either way, he wins, because he gets you out of control, if you engage in this.

The only way to win is not to play.

CLMI

Learn2Live

OMG, you are just like me! I get mad when it is clear someone wants help and I can't do it and I explode at THEM. How crazy is that?! I know what you're going through and I'm sorry about his OCD and how that ALL drives you crazy. And it's totally understandable that you do not want this kind of life anymore and you are doing great making these decisions for yourself and your family.

Here's my question: Is he getting medical attention for his issues?

ItsmeAlice

If it were me. I would send a copy of what you just wrote to him. I'd leave off the bit about explaining the conversation about the cats because that was for our benefit, but the rest really puts forth what you are feeling in a matter of fact way. It focuses on your reactions to his questioning and seeking attention from you without making it accusatory as to what is prompting your feelings and is in fact compassionate in the way you describe his need to question you to feel reassured. I think you are also taking ownership of your codependence and how your interaction with him is a trigger of that and you need to stay clear of that trigger as part of your recovery.

I don't have great hope that reading it will change his behavior because we all know we cannot change someone, they must change themselves, but to have it off your chest may alleviate some of the building anxiety and resentment you have toward him on this issue while establishing a boundary of appropriate discussion topics with him.

I also have to agree with what's already been said..if it's not about a mutual concern i.e. the kids, the pets, finances etc...it's not a discussion to engage in. When he tries to engage you this way refer him to this correspondence.

You are not responsible for making him feel allright anymore. You are not responsible for avoiding any triggers in your own home that may set off an OCD compulsion. If he begins to compulse with his OCD, ask him to leave and seek assistance. For the times you must deal with him it's time to whip up some pat answers to his questioning and OCD tendencies that you can keep repeating until he gets the idea you will not engage in discussion.

Alice

Learn2Live

I know you don't want him in your life anymore but you still need him to help with the kids. So, you have to either learn how to deal with him without stressing yourself out with all this anger and stuff, or find a way to take care of the kids without him picking them up and bringing them to the house. Either way, working on yourself and your CoD is GREAT! You sure have a LOT of responsibilities. I used to be the SAME way, I ALWAYS bit off WAY too much. Then, one day, I learned. Now, I keep it as simple as humanly possible. Still learning though.

I agree with Alice, give it to him on paper. But write it when you're calmed down and write about you and your feelings, not about HIM and his behavior. I'm sure he already knows about his behavior.

Bernadette

Since you seem sure you do not want to have a future romantic relationship with him, and you feel that in these conversations he is searching for clues to your feelings about that- maybe when you are prepared to tell him that you've given it some serious thought and youj are done with this relationship and you do not see a future for the two of you, maybe you will feel better, or at least - different.

Crap that used to drive me up a wall from my exH stopped bugging me completely once I got legally separated/divorced. He didn't change, but boy my reactions did! The strain was gone and being settled in my mind and honest with him that it was o-v-e-r released me from a huge amount of anxiety/fear/attachment to outcomes/taking things personally, etc.

peace,
b

Braveheart101

it's a form of bullying. Like a bully will keep at you until he finds something you don't like and keep at it. Its sick and cruel. Also, getting into your internal mind, get into your head, is the first thing an abuser does, an abuser likes to prey on your insecurities, and makes your life a living hell. I say, put him out of the house, even on visits, meet him by the door, block e-mails, or create a new e-mail, only he has, so you can prepare yourself for his bull, lol,
You need to stop letting him get to you. Their are books on brainwashing, and interrogation by the CIA. Find one at your local library or have someone at the library ge you one on interlibrary loan. You will see where this jerk is going when you read what you need from this book, you do not have to read the whol thing, just what you think pertains to you. It will blow your mind.
You are alright, to think there is something wrong. Hello, Houston, there is, Smart Cookie. Dont Believe, ok, Some of the things the CIA does, is keep askinga question,until they get what they want? wear you down, find out your facial expression for lying by askingyou something they know you will lie about, and then ask another question, that requires a yes, or no, be evasive, no yes, or no, get it ? if you around a mind freak like this OMG-- flippin run

Learn2Live

Trying to figure out what he is doing, whether or not he is manipulating you, why he's doing it, etc doesn't matter because you can't read minds and by trying to, you're trying to control something you haven't been able to control all these years anyway.

If I spent this much time trying to figure out my brother (who someone could easily be married to) and who has as many issues if not more than the rest of us, I would go insane. It gets you NO WHERE.

It is you, how you think, how you feel, your values, your morals, your choices, and your behaviors that matters in your Recovery. Take the focus off him and focus on you. There are many ways to do this, Al-Anon is the best way I know.

Cowgirl1265

That can even be turned around and given back to him, I think. Trying to figure why I do or say anything is codie behavior on his part. That helps me to understand why I need to disengage.

I did send him some of what I expressed above in an email last night. I need to keep going to meetings and get better at setting boundaries. And of course, keep coming here. This is a place of honesty and genuine compassion, experience and wisdom and I am so grateful for all of you.

Learn2Live

Great observation, THANKS!

Ago

I was giving this some thought during my commute today, he wrote:
So his question is what has changed IN YOU in the last week or two.

Well, yeah, you have begun setting boundaries recently according to your recent posts. This is a HUGE change I don't doubt. It's a perfectly valid question. "What brought this on" is you have begun to get healthy and make and set healthy boundaries. This FREAKS out relationships where change only occurs in one partner. Of course he is confused and afraid. Of course he is trying to tighten his grip on you.

John Grey I think, I'm not sure, wrote about relationships being like the balanced mobiles above a babies crib, when you remove one, the weight changes and everything has to rebalance.

When you change the dynamics of an unhealthy relationship it "upsets the apple cart", and the other person will do anything to try to "restore the balance"

You have upset the apple cart and he is trying to get "the relationship" back on track, the amusing thing is he is playing "the codependent" in this dynamic, so of course it feels crazy making. He is desperately trying to regain control of you, which is essentially what codependency is.

In my opinion he is not "gaslighting" you on purpose, although he is trying to manipulate you, he's trying to manipulate the relationship back to what it was where he had control over you, that's what codependency looks like from the other side when you upset the apple cart and start making healthy decisions for yourself, that is what he is doing is trying to regain control over you.

In my experience, it has helped when I have a "bottom line", I write this down before I call or engage with the other person, using what has been taking place between you guys as an example, him coming to your house and coming inside.

Boundary:

If you

Come into my house again

I will

Change the locks

If you continue to try to do so I will

Call the Police and have you arrested as a trespasser


In addition, My cats are NONE of your business, if you hadn't been inside you wouldn't have seen them get on the counter.

When it comes to ENFORCING these boundaries, tell him once, "if you go in my house I will...." and you just tell him again rather then take the action it's no longer enforcing the boundary, it's engaging in the sick dynamic. If he goes in to your house, change the locks, if he does so again, call the Police (in this example, choose and set your own boundaries)

I have to admit I derived some amusement from reading this thread, what you described is EXACTLY what it's like to get sober as a man in a relationship
This is a perfect description of what it's like to be me in a relationship