Relationship Over - What has been MY part??
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Join Date: Sep 2008
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Relationship Over - What has been MY part??
Hello everyone. It’s been a long, long time since I posted, but I do lurk around here quite often. Everyone’s ESH is always really helpful to me and I appreciate the insight often gained here.
I have been married over 14 years. My AH has not been drinking since he went to rehab 5 years ago. But, he’s a dry drunk. Very little recovery work has taken place and it seems as if he is more interested in weaving a web of smoke and mirrors to give the impression of recovery than actual real, life changing recovery. Certainly it’s not up to me to judge him and his recovery program, however, our relationship has continued to spiral downward into the depths of hell for the past three years. I’m finished. I posted here on this forum that I was finished last September when we separated and for some reason over the past year I needed to go back to him for several more rounds of emotional abuse, lying, manipulation, passive aggressive behavior, and other textbook alcoholic behavior before I was definitely finished and decided my daughter and I deserved better.
I have been going to Al-Anon for quite some time and I have also done a lot of work with a therapist. In fact, at one point in time I was seeing an Al-Anon counselor and a regular counselor 2x a week, for several months, because my head was so twisted up about this situation. All this has really helped and now that I know I’m heading away from my “in faux recovery AH”, I’m working hard core on myself.
I now want to figure out my part in all this, to figure out my part in the breakdown of the marriage. I’m reading a book “Helping Children Cope with Divorce” (we have a beautiful four year old daughter) and the book states that before you can move on emotionally from the relationship, you must see your part in the breakdown of the marriage. So here I sit, trying to dig deep and find out what has been my part in the breakdown of our textbook alcoholic marriage?
Here is a list of what I’ve come up with so far. Honestly, I think my list is way too short, but I am hitting a mental block here. PLEASE help me by sending me your thoughts on what you think YOUR part was in the breakdown of YOUR relationship. Perhaps your part was something that I have done also and I just can’t see it yet.
1. I stayed too long, waiting for my RAH to turn into someone that I needed him to be. I needed him to be a caring, loving human rather than someone that exhibited textbook alcoholic behaviors. I need him to fulfill my needs, the paltry amount of needs that I had, and I needed to have an emotional connection with him, which his disease has completely eroded over the past several years. I was waiting for the person that I loved and that I married to return to me. I was waiting for this person to discover the potential that I just knew was there and potential that he just knew was there. Not realizing that everyday the textbook alcoholic behavior was in fact his real character. Our behaviors exhibited TODAY is who we are. Our behaviors exhibited to the world = our true character. I stayed too long and for this I am to blame.
2. Staying too long turned me into someone with a short fuse, someone that was walking on eggshells all the time, waiting for the next round of lying, manipulation, or mind control games. All coming from this, the Man of The Year, in other people’s book. He was so nice, so caring, so helpful when he wasn’t lying, manipulating, or controlling. It was all smoke and mirrors. The nice behavior tried to cover the bad behavior. But this isn’t normal. I allowed myself to become someone I’m not and someone I do not want to be by staying too long and for this I am to blame.
3. Last one for “I stayed too long”. I am 40 now. I spent my childbearing years with someone that was battling his own demons, someone that could not see past his own nose or his own issues. It has never been “my time” to be sick, depressed, totally cared for, etc, even when I was in the hospital giving birth to my daughter – it was all about him. I grieve a lot, A LOT, over that fact that most likely I won’t have another child since I am leaving this relationship. This is one of the main reasons, I think, why I stayed. I wanted, and still want, another child. My heart sinks each time I see a mother with a 3-5 year old child and a new baby. That was supposed to be me. And I see this about 50 times per day. How can I move past this pain? For this, I am not to blame. I am not to blame that I have a normal need to have another child because I feel that I am a really, really good mother and I would like to share myself with another little human life.
4. We had this sick dynamic where at times he would almost beg me for a laundry list of things that were wrong with him. And of course, when I’d give him that laundry list, he would turn things around 100% so that all his defects were my fault. The problem was the way I was seeing things, not his defects. He tried to communicate that he’s better than Joe X, so what is my problem. Even if he has defect ABC, he’s better than Joe X, so there is no problem. It was my fault for giving him the laundry list. He at times still asks for one, I no longer oblige. I’ve finally realized I was not put on this earth to point out to him his short comings. But I am to blame for at times making him feel subhuman by giving him a laundry list of his issues and short comings.
5. I realize now that I was the mommy that he never had. Yes, indeed, I offered the safety and comfort of the womb, creating my very own King Baby. His family dynamic mirrors that of an alcoholic family. They were not alcoholics, but the dynamic is the same. I read a lot on the ACOA forum and my AH’s behavior appears a lot on that forum. His family has that sick dynamic of denial, extreme manipulation, never acknowledging directly someone’s happy times or accomplishments, or even rough patches in their life. My AH is a highly functioning dry drunk and he has a stellar career. His parents or siblings have not ever, ever recognized his accomplishments in his school academic times or career now. It’s sad, really. And I was that mommy that he never had. I gave him validation and boosted his ego even higher when he got yet another award or promotion at work. Before we had our daughter he got all the attention and yes, I did most everything for him. This includes packing his suitcase for business trips (yes, now I can lol because it’s so sad!!), taking care of EVERYTHING else having to do with the house, cleaning groceries, bills, the dog, the child, etc because he was too busy, because he worked – hey wait, I worked full time also! I am a poster child for a “woman who gives too much” and for a “woman that can do everything while giving too much and still keep a smile on her face” and for this I am to blame. I can see that now. It’s hard when this behavior emerges over 14 years because over time I took on more and more of the things he should have been helping with in order to have a balanced household. I did these things to “help him in his career” or to “make him happy” or to “allow him more time to relax while he was at home” or to be an agreeable spouse, not cause a fight, just be a nice, helpful person in general. I was wrong, but I was up against King Baby.
PLEASE send me your list so you can help me complete mine. Thank you!
I have been married over 14 years. My AH has not been drinking since he went to rehab 5 years ago. But, he’s a dry drunk. Very little recovery work has taken place and it seems as if he is more interested in weaving a web of smoke and mirrors to give the impression of recovery than actual real, life changing recovery. Certainly it’s not up to me to judge him and his recovery program, however, our relationship has continued to spiral downward into the depths of hell for the past three years. I’m finished. I posted here on this forum that I was finished last September when we separated and for some reason over the past year I needed to go back to him for several more rounds of emotional abuse, lying, manipulation, passive aggressive behavior, and other textbook alcoholic behavior before I was definitely finished and decided my daughter and I deserved better.
I have been going to Al-Anon for quite some time and I have also done a lot of work with a therapist. In fact, at one point in time I was seeing an Al-Anon counselor and a regular counselor 2x a week, for several months, because my head was so twisted up about this situation. All this has really helped and now that I know I’m heading away from my “in faux recovery AH”, I’m working hard core on myself.
I now want to figure out my part in all this, to figure out my part in the breakdown of the marriage. I’m reading a book “Helping Children Cope with Divorce” (we have a beautiful four year old daughter) and the book states that before you can move on emotionally from the relationship, you must see your part in the breakdown of the marriage. So here I sit, trying to dig deep and find out what has been my part in the breakdown of our textbook alcoholic marriage?
Here is a list of what I’ve come up with so far. Honestly, I think my list is way too short, but I am hitting a mental block here. PLEASE help me by sending me your thoughts on what you think YOUR part was in the breakdown of YOUR relationship. Perhaps your part was something that I have done also and I just can’t see it yet.
1. I stayed too long, waiting for my RAH to turn into someone that I needed him to be. I needed him to be a caring, loving human rather than someone that exhibited textbook alcoholic behaviors. I need him to fulfill my needs, the paltry amount of needs that I had, and I needed to have an emotional connection with him, which his disease has completely eroded over the past several years. I was waiting for the person that I loved and that I married to return to me. I was waiting for this person to discover the potential that I just knew was there and potential that he just knew was there. Not realizing that everyday the textbook alcoholic behavior was in fact his real character. Our behaviors exhibited TODAY is who we are. Our behaviors exhibited to the world = our true character. I stayed too long and for this I am to blame.
2. Staying too long turned me into someone with a short fuse, someone that was walking on eggshells all the time, waiting for the next round of lying, manipulation, or mind control games. All coming from this, the Man of The Year, in other people’s book. He was so nice, so caring, so helpful when he wasn’t lying, manipulating, or controlling. It was all smoke and mirrors. The nice behavior tried to cover the bad behavior. But this isn’t normal. I allowed myself to become someone I’m not and someone I do not want to be by staying too long and for this I am to blame.
3. Last one for “I stayed too long”. I am 40 now. I spent my childbearing years with someone that was battling his own demons, someone that could not see past his own nose or his own issues. It has never been “my time” to be sick, depressed, totally cared for, etc, even when I was in the hospital giving birth to my daughter – it was all about him. I grieve a lot, A LOT, over that fact that most likely I won’t have another child since I am leaving this relationship. This is one of the main reasons, I think, why I stayed. I wanted, and still want, another child. My heart sinks each time I see a mother with a 3-5 year old child and a new baby. That was supposed to be me. And I see this about 50 times per day. How can I move past this pain? For this, I am not to blame. I am not to blame that I have a normal need to have another child because I feel that I am a really, really good mother and I would like to share myself with another little human life.
4. We had this sick dynamic where at times he would almost beg me for a laundry list of things that were wrong with him. And of course, when I’d give him that laundry list, he would turn things around 100% so that all his defects were my fault. The problem was the way I was seeing things, not his defects. He tried to communicate that he’s better than Joe X, so what is my problem. Even if he has defect ABC, he’s better than Joe X, so there is no problem. It was my fault for giving him the laundry list. He at times still asks for one, I no longer oblige. I’ve finally realized I was not put on this earth to point out to him his short comings. But I am to blame for at times making him feel subhuman by giving him a laundry list of his issues and short comings.
5. I realize now that I was the mommy that he never had. Yes, indeed, I offered the safety and comfort of the womb, creating my very own King Baby. His family dynamic mirrors that of an alcoholic family. They were not alcoholics, but the dynamic is the same. I read a lot on the ACOA forum and my AH’s behavior appears a lot on that forum. His family has that sick dynamic of denial, extreme manipulation, never acknowledging directly someone’s happy times or accomplishments, or even rough patches in their life. My AH is a highly functioning dry drunk and he has a stellar career. His parents or siblings have not ever, ever recognized his accomplishments in his school academic times or career now. It’s sad, really. And I was that mommy that he never had. I gave him validation and boosted his ego even higher when he got yet another award or promotion at work. Before we had our daughter he got all the attention and yes, I did most everything for him. This includes packing his suitcase for business trips (yes, now I can lol because it’s so sad!!), taking care of EVERYTHING else having to do with the house, cleaning groceries, bills, the dog, the child, etc because he was too busy, because he worked – hey wait, I worked full time also! I am a poster child for a “woman who gives too much” and for a “woman that can do everything while giving too much and still keep a smile on her face” and for this I am to blame. I can see that now. It’s hard when this behavior emerges over 14 years because over time I took on more and more of the things he should have been helping with in order to have a balanced household. I did these things to “help him in his career” or to “make him happy” or to “allow him more time to relax while he was at home” or to be an agreeable spouse, not cause a fight, just be a nice, helpful person in general. I was wrong, but I was up against King Baby.
PLEASE send me your list so you can help me complete mine. Thank you!
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
I don't know that what I have worked on specifically relates to the breakdown of my marriage to an A. For me, I put aside the ways I contributed to the end of a marriage I now know should never have happened. Although there are things I could have said or done differently or better, it would have made no real difference and only prolonged the right decision to end it. That marriage was doomed from the beginning because xAH refuses to recognize and deal with his alcoholism and all that goes with that refusal. Nothing I did in that marriage could have brought about a different end. The end of that marriage was preordained, if you will, given that I came to understand I could not remain married to an A.
On the other hand, learning about me I can give an answer on how I contributed to the breakdown of my marriage. I did it by choosing to marrying a man I knew to be an A and convincing myself "it wouldn't be that bad." I did it by accepting responsibility for everything! I did it by not allowing him to be a fully responsible adult, protecting him from the consequences of his choices, by tolerating the intolerable. I did it by letting my needs and wants disappear to the point of denying I had wants and needs, that I had a right to those wants and needs. I did it by alternately screaming and yelling, or stopping communicating at all, to "make him understand" and by pretending underneath it all he was a good husband and father. I did it by not being honest with myself, not being true to myself. In other words, I did it by being deep in denial and way deep in codie behaviors.
The reasons I got into that marriage, why I stayed married for 5 yrs before I left, that is what is really important to me. I thank God for that marriage, as bad as it was, because without it, I would not have come to a deeper understanding of me. I had had no reason to break through the denial I was in.
Its all tied into the whole big morass of "stuff" that I have been carrying around from childhood. I have been working more on the whys of my decision to marry that A and all the other whys that made me the codependent I was. I have come to understand a great deal about the awful and widespread effects of being raised by alcoholic parents. I understand a great deal about the dysfunctional coping behaviors I learned as a child and young adult. I learned about how these dysfunctional behaviors came out and led me to choose to marry a man who was a duplicate of my father at a point in my life where my self image was at a low point and I was vulnerable to my tendency to want to believe I had met a man who could "solve" my problems, "make" me happy and live happily ever after (even though underneath it all there was that quiet voice telling nope, this ain't gonna do it honey). I learned I had become my mother (without the alcolism) turning to the martyr who sacrifices all for the sake of a marriage. I learned I wasn't capable of admitting mistakes because I had to be perfect. I learned I was filled with undeserved shame from years of verbal and physical abuse in my childhood.
Finally in my mid 50s I am dealing with those childhood rooted issues! Its been difficult. Its been painful. I've had to fight an occasional need to slide back into denial and instead comfort and heal the injured little girl inside. But I have finally learned I am not in control of everything and every one, and more importantly, don't want to be either. I have learned to let go the shame and martyrdom and self loathing that I learned from my A parents. I have learned to accept myself, with all my wonderful flaws. I have come to love myself.
On the other hand, learning about me I can give an answer on how I contributed to the breakdown of my marriage. I did it by choosing to marrying a man I knew to be an A and convincing myself "it wouldn't be that bad." I did it by accepting responsibility for everything! I did it by not allowing him to be a fully responsible adult, protecting him from the consequences of his choices, by tolerating the intolerable. I did it by letting my needs and wants disappear to the point of denying I had wants and needs, that I had a right to those wants and needs. I did it by alternately screaming and yelling, or stopping communicating at all, to "make him understand" and by pretending underneath it all he was a good husband and father. I did it by not being honest with myself, not being true to myself. In other words, I did it by being deep in denial and way deep in codie behaviors.
The reasons I got into that marriage, why I stayed married for 5 yrs before I left, that is what is really important to me. I thank God for that marriage, as bad as it was, because without it, I would not have come to a deeper understanding of me. I had had no reason to break through the denial I was in.
Its all tied into the whole big morass of "stuff" that I have been carrying around from childhood. I have been working more on the whys of my decision to marry that A and all the other whys that made me the codependent I was. I have come to understand a great deal about the awful and widespread effects of being raised by alcoholic parents. I understand a great deal about the dysfunctional coping behaviors I learned as a child and young adult. I learned about how these dysfunctional behaviors came out and led me to choose to marry a man who was a duplicate of my father at a point in my life where my self image was at a low point and I was vulnerable to my tendency to want to believe I had met a man who could "solve" my problems, "make" me happy and live happily ever after (even though underneath it all there was that quiet voice telling nope, this ain't gonna do it honey). I learned I had become my mother (without the alcolism) turning to the martyr who sacrifices all for the sake of a marriage. I learned I wasn't capable of admitting mistakes because I had to be perfect. I learned I was filled with undeserved shame from years of verbal and physical abuse in my childhood.
Finally in my mid 50s I am dealing with those childhood rooted issues! Its been difficult. Its been painful. I've had to fight an occasional need to slide back into denial and instead comfort and heal the injured little girl inside. But I have finally learned I am not in control of everything and every one, and more importantly, don't want to be either. I have learned to let go the shame and martyrdom and self loathing that I learned from my A parents. I have learned to accept myself, with all my wonderful flaws. I have come to love myself.
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,812
You know .... Im not quite sure how to put this so if Im stumbling ... please forgive me and also believe ... take what you like and leave the rest .... I really have only your recovery in mind in whatever Im saying....
Im reading ..(maybe wrongly so) alot of what he did.... but I dont see alot of your taking your own personal inventory. Im trying to say this as helpful as I can... but I still read alot of blame in what your writing.... let me try it this way ... Life and what we are learning is not about blaming...
In this I see alot of " I needed" ... not why I choose to be there...
I can give you a million reasons why I got into a relationship with an alcoholic.... it met my need to fix, control, be a victim, not set my standards too high, it was a known, it gave me another person to focus on.... etc... you name it ... it was just the excuse I needed.
I really dont like the blame game.... In this I hear alot of anger that other did not see what you did....
But honestly, you are blaming him for becoming who you did.... Now I agree if you stay in negative you will become that.... I became that person.... but I also have to take responsibility .. he did not "do" that too me. I allowed it to happen by not taking care of myself. Alcoholics will do what Alcoholics do..... that does not mean I have to allow it. I let myself down and I was pretty darn upset with myself for doing that.
You never know Gods plan.... have you thought of adoption? Again, you cant really "blame" him for the choices you made in staying in a relationship with a person that was not there... I know how hard it is to leave and just hoping that if you stick it out that it will change... again it was your choice.... and just maybe there is a reason??? Im sorry your greiving because you did not have another child with him... but that does not mean you can not have another child.... it may not be what "you" planned but that does not mean its not in "the" plan.... sometimes Gods plan is just not the same as ours.
Did I mention I hate the blame game??? You are right that we are not put her to take other peoples inventorys..... what works best for me is to decide what my boundries are and then stick to them.
Most of my motives for the behavior I had while in a unhealthy relationship are textbook... all you have to do is read the patterns and characteristics of Codependence .... Most of them I apply.... but the bottom line for me is... there was a payoff and I got from that relationship what I needed, as sick as that was.... Im thankful that today Im not that person and dont need or want that payoff..... that only comes from hard work and being focused on my recovery....
Take care of you and look for the solutions... not the blame.
Im reading ..(maybe wrongly so) alot of what he did.... but I dont see alot of your taking your own personal inventory. Im trying to say this as helpful as I can... but I still read alot of blame in what your writing.... let me try it this way ... Life and what we are learning is not about blaming...
1. I stayed too long, waiting for my RAH to turn into someone that I needed him to be. I needed him to be a caring, loving human rather than someone that exhibited textbook alcoholic behaviors. I need him to fulfill my needs, the paltry amount of needs that I had, and I needed to have an emotional connection with him, which his disease has completely eroded over the past several years. I was waiting for the person that I loved and that I married to return to me. I was waiting for this person to discover the potential that I just knew was there and potential that he just knew was there. Not realizing that everyday the textbook alcoholic behavior was in fact his real character. Our behaviors exhibited TODAY is who we are. Our behaviors exhibited to the world = our true character. I stayed too long and for this I am to blame.
I can give you a million reasons why I got into a relationship with an alcoholic.... it met my need to fix, control, be a victim, not set my standards too high, it was a known, it gave me another person to focus on.... etc... you name it ... it was just the excuse I needed.
2. Staying too long turned me into someone with a short fuse, someone that was walking on eggshells all the time, waiting for the next round of lying, manipulation, or mind control games. All coming from this, the Man of The Year, in other people’s book. He was so nice, so caring, so helpful when he wasn’t lying, manipulating, or controlling. It was all smoke and mirrors. The nice behavior tried to cover the bad behavior. But this isn’t normal. I allowed myself to become someone I’m not and someone I do not want to be by staying too long and for this I am to blame.
But honestly, you are blaming him for becoming who you did.... Now I agree if you stay in negative you will become that.... I became that person.... but I also have to take responsibility .. he did not "do" that too me. I allowed it to happen by not taking care of myself. Alcoholics will do what Alcoholics do..... that does not mean I have to allow it. I let myself down and I was pretty darn upset with myself for doing that.
3. Last one for “I stayed too long”. I am 40 now. I spent my childbearing years with someone that was battling his own demons, someone that could not see past his own nose or his own issues. It has never been “my time” to be sick, depressed, totally cared for, etc, even when I was in the hospital giving birth to my daughter – it was all about him. I grieve a lot, A LOT, over that fact that most likely I won’t have another child since I am leaving this relationship. This is one of the main reasons, I think, why I stayed. I wanted, and still want, another child. My heart sinks each time I see a mother with a 3-5 year old child and a new baby. That was supposed to be me. And I see this about 50 times per day. How can I move past this pain? For this, I am not to blame. I am not to blame that I have a normal need to have another child because I feel that I am a really, really good mother and I would like to share myself with another little human life.
I’ve finally realized I was not put on this earth to point out to him his short comings. But I am to blame for at times making him feel subhuman by giving him a laundry list of his issues and short comings.
Most of my motives for the behavior I had while in a unhealthy relationship are textbook... all you have to do is read the patterns and characteristics of Codependence .... Most of them I apply.... but the bottom line for me is... there was a payoff and I got from that relationship what I needed, as sick as that was.... Im thankful that today Im not that person and dont need or want that payoff..... that only comes from hard work and being focused on my recovery....
Take care of you and look for the solutions... not the blame.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: back from the brink
Posts: 457
Pink: you aren't alone with your thoughts. Many of us have felt the same way. I can sit here and nod my head to much of what you wrote.
You did what you felt was your responsibility and duty. It's a splash of cold water to see it in hindsight, I agree. But, with a bit more time, you'll see the growth you experienced too, and you will cut yourself some slack. Oddly enough, there are character building experiences to be had from these situations. Not that we ask for them!
Life is not over by a long stretch. You've got more living to do! Close the door on the past and move into your future — it's ALL your's for the taking!
You did what you felt was your responsibility and duty. It's a splash of cold water to see it in hindsight, I agree. But, with a bit more time, you'll see the growth you experienced too, and you will cut yourself some slack. Oddly enough, there are character building experiences to be had from these situations. Not that we ask for them!
Life is not over by a long stretch. You've got more living to do! Close the door on the past and move into your future — it's ALL your's for the taking!
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
I can certainly relate to what you posted already.
I haven't really done an inventory of any kind yet.
I do know that I also waited to long.
I also do not give love. I am not affectionate, I never give hugs, kisses, hold hands, initiate sex and am not enthusiastic about sex. I know that it must be quite devastating to live with someone like that. I should have went to counseling years ago to get that figured out. It had to be so damaging for my dh. That really does make me very sad. I am desperate to be away from him but he deserves a partner that makes him feel loved and cherished and attractive - as does everyone. My dh mentions this a lot. He has lots of negative things to say about me that are just alcoholic blah blah blah but this one is for real.
I fed an enormous amount of resentment and anger (passively but it was there none the less) back into this marriage, especially in the last few years.
I'm sure there is more
I haven't really done an inventory of any kind yet.
I do know that I also waited to long.
I also do not give love. I am not affectionate, I never give hugs, kisses, hold hands, initiate sex and am not enthusiastic about sex. I know that it must be quite devastating to live with someone like that. I should have went to counseling years ago to get that figured out. It had to be so damaging for my dh. That really does make me very sad. I am desperate to be away from him but he deserves a partner that makes him feel loved and cherished and attractive - as does everyone. My dh mentions this a lot. He has lots of negative things to say about me that are just alcoholic blah blah blah but this one is for real.
I fed an enormous amount of resentment and anger (passively but it was there none the less) back into this marriage, especially in the last few years.
I'm sure there is more
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: In the barn
Posts: 324
End, I haven't gotten to the inventory step yet, but I know that there are some things I have identified as my contribution to the destruction of my marriage to my mentally ill/codie husband.
I never let him be a grownup, never treated him as an equal. Regardless of how he wanted me to treat him (which is to say, he really did want me to act as a mommy figure) I always took care of him and prevented him from learning to care for himself. I solved his problems, intervened for him at work, with doctors, with authority figures, with his ex, with the court, with his attorney. I then spent an enormous amount of time resenting him for not taking care of these things himself, even though I never gave him a chance to.
I was also consumed with anger. By the end of our relationship (which was pretty recent) I could barely get through a conversation with him without being rude, short, or downright nasty. I blamed him for everything. I blamed him for making me unhappy when in fact it was my attempts to control him that were making me unhappy. He had every right to do or not do, change or not change; I was unreasonable in my expectation that he should do everything MY way.
I don't think that our end result would have been any different if I had kept up my end of the relationship bargain. In fact, I think the relationship would have ended sooner - the first time he had an internet affair or punched a hole in the wall of our house. If I'd had better boundaries and been less codependent, we might have saved ourselves years of misery. I think. But who knows?
I'm sure there will be more I find as I do my inventory, but these are the things that come to mind right now.
I never let him be a grownup, never treated him as an equal. Regardless of how he wanted me to treat him (which is to say, he really did want me to act as a mommy figure) I always took care of him and prevented him from learning to care for himself. I solved his problems, intervened for him at work, with doctors, with authority figures, with his ex, with the court, with his attorney. I then spent an enormous amount of time resenting him for not taking care of these things himself, even though I never gave him a chance to.
I was also consumed with anger. By the end of our relationship (which was pretty recent) I could barely get through a conversation with him without being rude, short, or downright nasty. I blamed him for everything. I blamed him for making me unhappy when in fact it was my attempts to control him that were making me unhappy. He had every right to do or not do, change or not change; I was unreasonable in my expectation that he should do everything MY way.
I don't think that our end result would have been any different if I had kept up my end of the relationship bargain. In fact, I think the relationship would have ended sooner - the first time he had an internet affair or punched a hole in the wall of our house. If I'd had better boundaries and been less codependent, we might have saved ourselves years of misery. I think. But who knows?
I'm sure there will be more I find as I do my inventory, but these are the things that come to mind right now.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere Abroad
Posts: 12
Thanks so much, everyone for your insight. It is so helpful to read - even the fact that someone point out that my original posting smacks of blame, which, wow, it does!
Please keep the posts coming...I am learning alot here.
Please keep the posts coming...I am learning alot here.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
I know exactly what you're talking about, cowgirl. My ex said I treated him like a child...I'd think, well you act like a child so much of the time!
I had so much anger and when I'm honest with myself, I realize I still do. Anger at the disease. Anger at him that he doesn't recognize it. Anger at his friends for treating me badly and enabling him. I like what a different poster said-try not to stay negative.
I don't know what I could've done to avoid any of those feelings, tho! do you? Maybe I could have walked away earlier...that's the only thing I can think of. I always felt, my xabf wanted me to just accept his behavior of going to the bar when he wasn't around me, because he didn't drink all the time, but couldn't go more than a few wks without a binge.
It's such harmful and destructive behavior, I felt why should I be expected to just accept it? his therapist suggested I detach when he was out with his friends at the bar-I found it impossible.
I had so much anger and when I'm honest with myself, I realize I still do. Anger at the disease. Anger at him that he doesn't recognize it. Anger at his friends for treating me badly and enabling him. I like what a different poster said-try not to stay negative.
I don't know what I could've done to avoid any of those feelings, tho! do you? Maybe I could have walked away earlier...that's the only thing I can think of. I always felt, my xabf wanted me to just accept his behavior of going to the bar when he wasn't around me, because he didn't drink all the time, but couldn't go more than a few wks without a binge.
It's such harmful and destructive behavior, I felt why should I be expected to just accept it? his therapist suggested I detach when he was out with his friends at the bar-I found it impossible.
Originally Posted by Cowgirl1265 
End, I haven't gotten to the inventory step yet, but I know that there are some things I have identified as my contribution to the destruction of my marriage to my mentally ill/codie husband.
I never let him be a grownup, never treated him as an equal. Regardless of how he wanted me to treat him (which is to say, he really did want me to act as a mommy figure) I always took care of him and prevented him from learning to care for himself. I solved his problems, intervened for him at work, with doctors, with authority figures, with his ex, with the court, with his attorney. I then spent an enormous amount of time resenting him for not taking care of these things himself, even though I never gave him a chance to.
I was also consumed with anger. By the end of our relationship (which was pretty recent) I could barely get through a conversation with him without being rude, short, or downright nasty. I blamed him for everything. I blamed him for making me unhappy when in fact it was my attempts to control him that were making me unhappy. He had every right to do or not do, change or not change; I was unreasonable in my expectation that he should do everything MY way.
I don't think that our end result would have been any different if I had kept up my end of the relationship bargain. In fact, I think the relationship would have ended sooner - the first time he had an internet affair or punched a hole in the wall of our house. If I'd had better boundaries and been less codependent, we might have saved ourselves years of misery. I think. But who knows?
I'm sure there will be more I find as I do my inventory, but these are the things that come to mind right now.
I never let him be a grownup, never treated him as an equal. Regardless of how he wanted me to treat him (which is to say, he really did want me to act as a mommy figure) I always took care of him and prevented him from learning to care for himself. I solved his problems, intervened for him at work, with doctors, with authority figures, with his ex, with the court, with his attorney. I then spent an enormous amount of time resenting him for not taking care of these things himself, even though I never gave him a chance to.
I was also consumed with anger. By the end of our relationship (which was pretty recent) I could barely get through a conversation with him without being rude, short, or downright nasty. I blamed him for everything. I blamed him for making me unhappy when in fact it was my attempts to control him that were making me unhappy. He had every right to do or not do, change or not change; I was unreasonable in my expectation that he should do everything MY way.
I don't think that our end result would have been any different if I had kept up my end of the relationship bargain. In fact, I think the relationship would have ended sooner - the first time he had an internet affair or punched a hole in the wall of our house. If I'd had better boundaries and been less codependent, we might have saved ourselves years of misery. I think. But who knows?
I'm sure there will be more I find as I do my inventory, but these are the things that come to mind right now.
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: In the barn
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by sandrawg
II don't know what I could've done to avoid any of those feelings, tho! do you? Maybe I could have walked away earlier...that's the only thing I can think of. I always felt, my xabf wanted me to just accept his behavior of going to the bar when he wasn't around me, because he didn't drink all the time, but couldn't go more than a few wks without a binge.
It's such harmful and destructive behavior, I felt why should I be expected to just accept it? his therapist suggested I detach when he was out with his friends at the bar-I found it impossible.
It's such harmful and destructive behavior, I felt why should I be expected to just accept it? his therapist suggested I detach when he was out with his friends at the bar-I found it impossible.
I think that's what the program means when it says "Let go and let God." Letting go/detaching is a huge hurdle. I sure haven't gotten there. I don't know how long it will take. But the other side of letting go is setting boundaries. You set boundaries that you follow through on. Your partner may be doing something in your relationship that is not OK with you. Sure, you don't want to be emotionally hooked into controlling his behavior - that's the detaching part - but you also have the right when the boundary is crossed to say "That's not ok, and if you are going to choose to do these things then our relationship needs to be over. That's not what I want in my life." And of course you feel sad and betrayed. He chose his behavior (in your case, binge drinking, in mine screaming/yelling at me and my kids) over your relationship. That's a sad thing and you have the right to feel sad about it. The detachment part is instead of going after your partner and asking them to justify or stop what you've already told them is not ok, you sit down with yourself and your HP or your sponsor and pour it all out - how upset you are with the situation, how you feel, you ask for help and you ask for grace and you move on. You deal with your feelings on your own. You detach from your partner by allowing them to make this choice of behavior without pressure or reminders from you that you told them its not ok.
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
Hey cowgirl you sound like my therapist!!
She said that exactly, after knowing what you want in a romantic relationship, you can say when something does not feel good, and state it clearly and in a friendly way... with love and care... negotiate what needs to be negotiated (and when the partner is a Healthy Partner willing to meet you halfway, who knows what respect is, it is easy) and then leave it at that and trust it will be that way...
Then if the boundary is breached you can recognize it immediately (in my case take 3 or 4 days to calm down and not overreact emotionally) then go back to the partner and say "we talked about this.. was there any doubt? is there any clarification needed?" and agree on something again..
If the same thing happens the third time... you can start considering if it is a deal breaker and act accordingly... but chances are if you are healthy and the partner is healthy you are both commited to building something great and it does not come to this.
It was like a Relationship 101 course. I had NEVER considered this possible, and when I applied it everything was so great and I felt good knowing I would be protecting myself from now on
its a completely new Universe, totally worth exploring but it all starts with ourselves being healthy and stable (I am also a long way from stability but at least I know it is possible now)
She said that exactly, after knowing what you want in a romantic relationship, you can say when something does not feel good, and state it clearly and in a friendly way... with love and care... negotiate what needs to be negotiated (and when the partner is a Healthy Partner willing to meet you halfway, who knows what respect is, it is easy) and then leave it at that and trust it will be that way...
Then if the boundary is breached you can recognize it immediately (in my case take 3 or 4 days to calm down and not overreact emotionally) then go back to the partner and say "we talked about this.. was there any doubt? is there any clarification needed?" and agree on something again..
If the same thing happens the third time... you can start considering if it is a deal breaker and act accordingly... but chances are if you are healthy and the partner is healthy you are both commited to building something great and it does not come to this.
It was like a Relationship 101 course. I had NEVER considered this possible, and when I applied it everything was so great and I felt good knowing I would be protecting myself from now on
its a completely new Universe, totally worth exploring but it all starts with ourselves being healthy and stable (I am also a long way from stability but at least I know it is possible now)
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: around the riverbend in the boonedocks, USA
Posts: 56
End of Pink Cloud,
I'm so glad you brought this post up! This is something I've needed to look at for a long time, and deeply.
I won't type much cause I want to think about it more before I fully respond to you with what my part was in the relationship with my AH.
I feel that I realte with you, and many. Lived with my husband for 10 years, married 8, have a 3 and 5 year old daughter (and sorry, that you have that void), yet love that little one as much as if she where 2 children in one!
I believe/know I haven't moved on from this relationship emotional, I keep dancing with him from time to time.
I feel that at first in the relationship, I seen him laying on his apartment floor passed out, when we where dating. I could have left then, and not waited for him to wake up. But I stayed, why? Cause I thought he needs someone, and I'm hear! I'll take care of him. Why not, I took care of my mom for the past 5 years before that when she would drink and lay in bed, or go out and do coke and clean the house madly for 3 days then to crash for a week. Who was the one to get supper and the house picked uped, since dad was at work? not mom, it was Kota.
I remember my grandmother saying since I was little, I was like the mother hen, always looking after my sisters. I thought that was something good, and it is, to a point.
I covered for my AH time and time again, called in to work for him, when I didn't want to, told myself and my family things where ok, when they weren't, told his friends sorry when they would come over to drink and he would go past that line, and do something stupid, or just pass out.
I cleaned his puck, the pee from the bed, got rid of the bottles, and tried to get a fresh day going!
I didn't let him self distruct with me enough to let him see that. Even after I left, he still blames me for not being there for him, in his darkest times. That if it wasn't for his at the time girlfriend he would have been dead and I owe her some respect.
I lost my respect for love of my husband about 5 years ago I would say, that I loved him in my heart, but in my head I hated the A. in him! I depised him, and his attaction's, and that in turn made me not take him serious when he was sober and talking about his "pipe dreams"
He still reminds me how I have disrespected him many times. It hurts, I blame myself and beat myself up alot for that, but then I get to thinking if it all my fault?
My part of the breakdown of our marriage, I was the one to be the rock, and the water in the rivers current was to strong and moved me down river, and I lost my spot in the world, and can't ever get back up stream. I need to realize that down river isn't so bad, it's still a beauitful site down stream, and is a good place, I need not to push against the current so much anymore and just let it follow around me.
I hope that all makes sense? I'll work on more inventory tonight, thanks again for the post!
I'm so glad you brought this post up! This is something I've needed to look at for a long time, and deeply.
I won't type much cause I want to think about it more before I fully respond to you with what my part was in the relationship with my AH.
I feel that I realte with you, and many. Lived with my husband for 10 years, married 8, have a 3 and 5 year old daughter (and sorry, that you have that void), yet love that little one as much as if she where 2 children in one!
I believe/know I haven't moved on from this relationship emotional, I keep dancing with him from time to time.
I feel that at first in the relationship, I seen him laying on his apartment floor passed out, when we where dating. I could have left then, and not waited for him to wake up. But I stayed, why? Cause I thought he needs someone, and I'm hear! I'll take care of him. Why not, I took care of my mom for the past 5 years before that when she would drink and lay in bed, or go out and do coke and clean the house madly for 3 days then to crash for a week. Who was the one to get supper and the house picked uped, since dad was at work? not mom, it was Kota.
I remember my grandmother saying since I was little, I was like the mother hen, always looking after my sisters. I thought that was something good, and it is, to a point.
I covered for my AH time and time again, called in to work for him, when I didn't want to, told myself and my family things where ok, when they weren't, told his friends sorry when they would come over to drink and he would go past that line, and do something stupid, or just pass out.
I cleaned his puck, the pee from the bed, got rid of the bottles, and tried to get a fresh day going!
I didn't let him self distruct with me enough to let him see that. Even after I left, he still blames me for not being there for him, in his darkest times. That if it wasn't for his at the time girlfriend he would have been dead and I owe her some respect.
I lost my respect for love of my husband about 5 years ago I would say, that I loved him in my heart, but in my head I hated the A. in him! I depised him, and his attaction's, and that in turn made me not take him serious when he was sober and talking about his "pipe dreams"
He still reminds me how I have disrespected him many times. It hurts, I blame myself and beat myself up alot for that, but then I get to thinking if it all my fault?
My part of the breakdown of our marriage, I was the one to be the rock, and the water in the rivers current was to strong and moved me down river, and I lost my spot in the world, and can't ever get back up stream. I need to realize that down river isn't so bad, it's still a beauitful site down stream, and is a good place, I need not to push against the current so much anymore and just let it follow around me.
I hope that all makes sense? I'll work on more inventory tonight, thanks again for the post!
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Between the ocean and the mountains
Posts: 653
Pink Cloud,
From my study of the alcoholic marriage, my reading has told me again and again that if one of the spouses is an active addict, then ADDICTION is the problem in the marriage. Period. The usual marriage issues discussed on TV talk shows and in women's magazines DO NOT APPLY. Issues of communication, expectations, money, sex, children.....never think that in his drinking years that you were responsible in any way for being unable to make a happy solid marriage. ADDICTION was the problem.
Then he got sober but still maintained the alcoholic personality, which has very specific characteristics which you described in a nutshell. He may also have an underlying mental disorder.....it is estimated by the national Council on Alcoholism that 60% of all addicts have an underlying mental disorder. This could be for addicts such things as depressive disorder, ADHD, pathological narcissism, borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder...you get what I mean. He has healed physically, but spiritually he is still bankrupt. This means he will not be loving. He will not be a loving, gentle, giving partner.
In my opinion, the 4th step of the 12 step program in Al-Anon (assessing one's flaws and strengths) is not about how we hurt the alcoholic in ANY WAY. My opinion is that the addict is the abuser and the spouse is the victim of abuse.
My feeling is that the 4th step means we look at our STRENGTHS primarily (because we have been COMPLETELY BEATEN DOWN) and the flaws we find in ourselves will likely be related to an absence of self-care, just as you describe: staying too long, enduring abuse.
We stay too long because the disease is diablolical and it tricks us. The addict tricks us. We lose our way. We lose our self-worth. We lose our hope. We feel unlovable, unloved, and unbelievably failed. We give up and we give in, again and again.
PinkCloud, I am sorry you did not have that second baby you so longed for. Perhaps one day when looking back on your life, you will see it in a different light. I believe in the wisdom of God's divine plan for each of us and I believe that serenity comes from being at peace about where God has placed us in our lives and what He has withheld or has bestowed upon us.
Thank you for your very honest post.
Bluejay
From my study of the alcoholic marriage, my reading has told me again and again that if one of the spouses is an active addict, then ADDICTION is the problem in the marriage. Period. The usual marriage issues discussed on TV talk shows and in women's magazines DO NOT APPLY. Issues of communication, expectations, money, sex, children.....never think that in his drinking years that you were responsible in any way for being unable to make a happy solid marriage. ADDICTION was the problem.
Then he got sober but still maintained the alcoholic personality, which has very specific characteristics which you described in a nutshell. He may also have an underlying mental disorder.....it is estimated by the national Council on Alcoholism that 60% of all addicts have an underlying mental disorder. This could be for addicts such things as depressive disorder, ADHD, pathological narcissism, borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder...you get what I mean. He has healed physically, but spiritually he is still bankrupt. This means he will not be loving. He will not be a loving, gentle, giving partner.
In my opinion, the 4th step of the 12 step program in Al-Anon (assessing one's flaws and strengths) is not about how we hurt the alcoholic in ANY WAY. My opinion is that the addict is the abuser and the spouse is the victim of abuse.
My feeling is that the 4th step means we look at our STRENGTHS primarily (because we have been COMPLETELY BEATEN DOWN) and the flaws we find in ourselves will likely be related to an absence of self-care, just as you describe: staying too long, enduring abuse.
We stay too long because the disease is diablolical and it tricks us. The addict tricks us. We lose our way. We lose our self-worth. We lose our hope. We feel unlovable, unloved, and unbelievably failed. We give up and we give in, again and again.
PinkCloud, I am sorry you did not have that second baby you so longed for. Perhaps one day when looking back on your life, you will see it in a different light. I believe in the wisdom of God's divine plan for each of us and I believe that serenity comes from being at peace about where God has placed us in our lives and what He has withheld or has bestowed upon us.
Thank you for your very honest post.
Bluejay
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Posts: 131
I would like to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread. This quesiton has been looming large in my mind as I try to work on my side of the street.
What Cowgirl wrote rang very true... execpt I was the father figure.
What I am still trying to sort through is that she really wanted me to solve things for her. When I would back away and push her to do more to take care of herself, she would either become "sick" and stay in bed, or become very angry with me and accuse me "abandoning" her.
The reality is that she didn't want to take care of herself. She wanted someone else to deal with the day to day aspects of living, so she could drink and drug.
So, I played the role of the enabler. By being the enabler, I prolonged the chaos and the misery, but the chaos and the misery would have been there no matter what because of her addiction.
I do REALLY struggle with where my role in all of this is beyond being the enabler and by staying in a dysfunctional relationship.
I understand that I stayed because I kept wanting her to be something that she was not capable of being. But I struggle with why my expecations are wrong. Is it wrong to expect someone to carry their weight in a relationship? to be faithful? To not come home drunk or high?
I guess it will be a while before I sort all of this out in my head.
What Cowgirl wrote rang very true... execpt I was the father figure.
Originally Posted by Cowgirl1265
I never let him be a grownup, never treated him as an equal. Regardless of how he wanted me to treat him (which is to say, he really did want me to act as a mommy figure) I always took care of him and prevented him from learning to care for himself. I solved his problems, intervened for him at work, with doctors, with authority figures, with his ex, with the court, with his attorney. I then spent an enormous amount of time resenting him for not taking care of these things himself, even though I never gave him a chance to.
The reality is that she didn't want to take care of herself. She wanted someone else to deal with the day to day aspects of living, so she could drink and drug.
So, I played the role of the enabler. By being the enabler, I prolonged the chaos and the misery, but the chaos and the misery would have been there no matter what because of her addiction.
I do REALLY struggle with where my role in all of this is beyond being the enabler and by staying in a dysfunctional relationship.
I understand that I stayed because I kept wanting her to be something that she was not capable of being. But I struggle with why my expecations are wrong. Is it wrong to expect someone to carry their weight in a relationship? to be faithful? To not come home drunk or high?
I guess it will be a while before I sort all of this out in my head.
Being Silent so I can Hear
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,521
Is it wrong to expect someone to carry their weight in a relationship? to be faithful? To not come home drunk or high?
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Posts: 131
So, I just had an interesting discussion with a recovering addict friend. She offered an interested distinction.
"You have to be able to distinguish between (a) your role in entering into and continuing with a relationship with an alcoholic/addict and (b) your role in your xAGF's drinking and drugging.
"You volunteered enter into the relationship even thought there were red flags and you volunteered to stay in the relationship once you knew she a problem. You volunteered to be the enabler.
"Having said that, you are not in any way responsible for her drinking and drugging."
In my mind, the two issues had been wrapped up together. I am finding it helpful to think of it in two distinct pieces.
"You have to be able to distinguish between (a) your role in entering into and continuing with a relationship with an alcoholic/addict and (b) your role in your xAGF's drinking and drugging.
"You volunteered enter into the relationship even thought there were red flags and you volunteered to stay in the relationship once you knew she a problem. You volunteered to be the enabler.
"Having said that, you are not in any way responsible for her drinking and drugging."
In my mind, the two issues had been wrapped up together. I am finding it helpful to think of it in two distinct pieces.
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Posts: 131
Originally Posted by Still Waters
Nope. But it's a recipe for disaster to expect it from someone incapable of giving it.
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Originally Posted by TrainWreckAgain
And there is the real question. How can you figure out if someone is capable of those things or not.....
L
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