Oh No :(
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
Oh No :(
RAH's mom died last night. Somewhat unexpectedly. His sis called and told him to call his mom, that she wanted to talk to him. She told him to call her soon. He drove to the lake, to find a peaceful spot I assume, and called about an hour later. The nurse picked up and said they just had to call 911, they were working on her, he'd have to call back. She did not make it. This is such a heartbreaking situation.
He seems to be struggling anyway but last night he was all over the place and did end up drinking. Not a total bender but still. He said he was going to get back on track today yadda yadda yadda. Ugh, who knows.
Yesterday I was going to post about the baby steps I was taking that were making me feel a little less crazy and confused. I still feel that way but my heart is just breaking for my dh right now. I very very very much want him to be successful in this recovery even though I don't want to be married to him anymore. I do not love him like a marriage partner but I do love him. I want recovery for him and a happy life for him (and his kids to get the man/father I know he is underneath) and this puts that in serious jeopardy. Life comes with stress but this is terrible bad timing.
I offered to put all of our marriage issues on hold for awhile. That we would take it day by day and not think about or discuss our relationship for the next 2-3 weeks. He said he can't do that. He's fixated and obsessed with it. He seems 'stuck' on it in an abnormal way. I didn't say anything to him last night but if he starts drinking again - if this is more then a one time 'slip' (which is something he heard in AA Meetings I guess) then he'll have to leave no matter what he's going through. That is my boundary. Is that out of line?
He seems to be struggling anyway but last night he was all over the place and did end up drinking. Not a total bender but still. He said he was going to get back on track today yadda yadda yadda. Ugh, who knows.
Yesterday I was going to post about the baby steps I was taking that were making me feel a little less crazy and confused. I still feel that way but my heart is just breaking for my dh right now. I very very very much want him to be successful in this recovery even though I don't want to be married to him anymore. I do not love him like a marriage partner but I do love him. I want recovery for him and a happy life for him (and his kids to get the man/father I know he is underneath) and this puts that in serious jeopardy. Life comes with stress but this is terrible bad timing.
I offered to put all of our marriage issues on hold for awhile. That we would take it day by day and not think about or discuss our relationship for the next 2-3 weeks. He said he can't do that. He's fixated and obsessed with it. He seems 'stuck' on it in an abnormal way. I didn't say anything to him last night but if he starts drinking again - if this is more then a one time 'slip' (which is something he heard in AA Meetings I guess) then he'll have to leave no matter what he's going through. That is my boundary. Is that out of line?
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Marshall, TX
Posts: 84
I agree with stillwaters - no...you are not out of line.
I think you would be doing yourself and your RAH a disservice if you breach the boundaries - even in an extreme situation such as this.
My condolences, too. I know you're hurting on more than one front.
I think you would be doing yourself and your RAH a disservice if you breach the boundaries - even in an extreme situation such as this.
My condolences, too. I know you're hurting on more than one front.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Between the ocean and the mountains
Posts: 653
Thumper,
I'm sorry for the loss of your mother-in-law. I know you are under so much stress right now, and anyone's death will complicate all the emotions.
Your AH has AA available to him, recovering alcoholics 24/7, who will be there for him no matter what crisis or loss he is experiencing, and without question, they are the ones who are best qualified to support him. They know exactly what it is to want to pick up the drink to deal with life and they know exactly what to say to him about the consequences of that. They speak his language. You don't.
I would continue with whatever steps you have been taking to get your life on a stable, consistent, healthy course.....and allow him to take the appropriate steps for him to do the same, with the appropriate support structure.
All best,
Bluejay
I'm sorry for the loss of your mother-in-law. I know you are under so much stress right now, and anyone's death will complicate all the emotions.
Your AH has AA available to him, recovering alcoholics 24/7, who will be there for him no matter what crisis or loss he is experiencing, and without question, they are the ones who are best qualified to support him. They know exactly what it is to want to pick up the drink to deal with life and they know exactly what to say to him about the consequences of that. They speak his language. You don't.
I would continue with whatever steps you have been taking to get your life on a stable, consistent, healthy course.....and allow him to take the appropriate steps for him to do the same, with the appropriate support structure.
All best,
Bluejay
peaceful seabird
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: floating
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My condolences to you and your family.
Your RAH will be putting the rubber to the road. Speed testing his tools of recovery. Step 2, came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
He has to trust his sponsor, and HP at this time. Alcohol will not solve anything.
Thumper, you can love him like family during this difficult time. He is an adult and must take care of himself, however.
Hugs to you as you try to take care of yourself during this difficult time.
Your RAH will be putting the rubber to the road. Speed testing his tools of recovery. Step 2, came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
He has to trust his sponsor, and HP at this time. Alcohol will not solve anything.
Thumper, you can love him like family during this difficult time. He is an adult and must take care of himself, however.
Hugs to you as you try to take care of yourself during this difficult time.
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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My condolences to you and your family.
As to your RAH, it would have been easier to pick up the phone and call his sponsor than it was to pick up the drink. One time slip my azz.
I know of many, myself included, both with long term sobriety and new to sobriety that have not needed nor used the EXCUSE of the death of a parent, spouse, child, sibling, or fur baby to pick up.
You do what YOU need to do for YOU. Yes, I understand you love him, but are not 'in love' with him as a partner any longer. Yes you want the 'best' for him. However, he has to do that on HIS OWN. Therefore, you stick with what is BEST for YOU.
Remember we are walking with you in spirit, your are not alone.
Love and hugs,
As to your RAH, it would have been easier to pick up the phone and call his sponsor than it was to pick up the drink. One time slip my azz.
I know of many, myself included, both with long term sobriety and new to sobriety that have not needed nor used the EXCUSE of the death of a parent, spouse, child, sibling, or fur baby to pick up.
You do what YOU need to do for YOU. Yes, I understand you love him, but are not 'in love' with him as a partner any longer. Yes you want the 'best' for him. However, he has to do that on HIS OWN. Therefore, you stick with what is BEST for YOU.
Remember we are walking with you in spirit, your are not alone.
Love and hugs,
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
Thank you all, once again, for your feedback. It is good to know that in this instance my perception was not totally off
I have zero ability to predict what is going to happen with him over the next few days. I'm not even going to try. I've also decided that I will be supportive in that I will not over react to any moods or harsh words, I will be compassionate at this difficult time, I will offer a word or possibly two of encouragement but I will not quiz him, question him, offer advice, or expend enormous amounts of energy trying to 'help' him not drink. I will not go home and check on him or any of the other related crap. I'm not touching that with a 10' pole. That is a big switch over what I would have done 2 months ago. Credited to the al-anon stuff I've been reading but mostly this group - so thanks.
I have zero ability to predict what is going to happen with him over the next few days. I'm not even going to try. I've also decided that I will be supportive in that I will not over react to any moods or harsh words, I will be compassionate at this difficult time, I will offer a word or possibly two of encouragement but I will not quiz him, question him, offer advice, or expend enormous amounts of energy trying to 'help' him not drink. I will not go home and check on him or any of the other related crap. I'm not touching that with a 10' pole. That is a big switch over what I would have done 2 months ago. Credited to the al-anon stuff I've been reading but mostly this group - so thanks.
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
No Thumper you are not out of line at all.
And if you ask me.... mourning and great suffering, do not justify harsh words for anybody else, in my book ... ever. But I get it you will start dettaching more so, remember, if he chooses to drink because of this (as ex did after his mother died of an illness) it is because he wants to. Just remember, you can't control it. You just can't.
And if you ask me.... mourning and great suffering, do not justify harsh words for anybody else, in my book ... ever. But I get it you will start dettaching more so, remember, if he chooses to drink because of this (as ex did after his mother died of an illness) it is because he wants to. Just remember, you can't control it. You just can't.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Hi Thumper. 
That is such a sad post about your husband--and his mom dying. I actually gasped when I read it. I feel really bad for your husband and you. It is so hard when you've quit drinking when something like this comes up because you don't know what to do about it sober. So, you do the thing you have taught yourself for many many years - DRINK. You know that drinking isn't going to solve it but you don't know what else to do. You're a fish out of water, ya' know? And once you drink you say to yourself, "Well that didn't help." Nothing really does help.
I think the best thing you can do is just be there as a friend. I know he wants to talk about the relationship but that may be because he is worried about it. ?? IDK, Only you can find out where he is coming from. But often we get so wrapped up in and angry about, what he ISN'T, and what we DON'T want, and the fact that they can't give us what we DO want, and why doesn't he just LISTEN, and I just can't take anymore of this, that we forget they are human beings with feelings.
Try to talk to him like he's a friend. Try not to tell him anymore what it is you want and just listen and try to see what he feels and he wants. He is probably pretty scared right now, trying to stay sober and having lapsed. I don't mean to say to feel sorry for him or that you haven't done any of these things already.
One thing I have learned in just this past relationship is that alcoholics and drug addicts panic a lot. They don't have a lot of tools and skills to manage stress. They feel things they can't remember ever having felt before. They try to quit many times, and when they can't, or when they fail, they beat themselves up about it and fear that they'll NEVER be able to do it. It can be very difficult to deal with just normal, every day kind of stuff.
You asked in your post if you were "out of line" about sticking to your boundaries and kicking him out no matter what he is going through. I think you have your answer already in your heart and that is why you posted this question, but here is my feedback:
I can't remember all the details about your husband's behavior and your situation, but I've found that when I act out of compassion, when I follow my heart, when I treat others (alcoholic or not, crackaddict or not) the same way I would like to be treated, I feel GOOD ABOUT myself. But when I DON'T treat others compassionately, patiently, kindly (even if they have pi$$ed me WAY off, or "deserve" it because they betrayed me, or even if they are just plain behaving badly) I feel BAD ABOUT myself. That is unhealthy and my Recovery is guided by what is healthy vs what is unhealthy for me.
(Drunks and drug addicts irritate the sh*t out of me and I have no tolerance for them so it is BEST for me to not have them in my life at all. So, I'm not saying I'm great at this either; but it is what I try to strive for.)
Thumper, Ask yourself, is your boundary reasonable? Is the home you live in his home too? Did he contribute to the home and the household? Is this truly a boundary? Or is this a wielding of justifiable anger and, therefore, power?
Can you reasonably expect this man to quit drinking and if he doesn't you will kick him out of his home?
Is this the first boundary you have created? Or have there been any smaller boundaries you have worked on with him?
Everybody says the alcoholic/addict has to hit rock bottom first. But Thumper, just make sure you are not trying to CREATE his rock bottom for him. You can't. And if that is even part of the reason why you want to kick him out, please think twice about it because you are going to affect yourself by basing your decision on this.
I'm not telling you what to do. I can't. I understand you wanting to kick him out; I would want the same thing. But you love this man and you care about him very much, these things are obvious to me. And when you act contrary to your love, your values, your heart, you hammer away at your own self-esteem. It's gonna hurt enough when he goes, when he leaves, when you kick him out, whatever. It's going to hurt and you'll probably cry like a baby just like I did. I don't want you to create more unnecessary hurt for yourself either.
I wish you lived close by so we could go have decaf coffee together and talk :O)
P.S. I don't believe in the rock-bottom theory. I believe that they will seek Recovery when they decide that they just cannot live the kind of life they have been living, anymore. Sometimes it takes a person to get to rock-bottom to make this decision, and sometimes they decide and start Recovery earlier.
But Recovery is a process, and that process is called Life. Make the healthiest decisions for yours.
:ghug2
That is such a sad post about your husband--and his mom dying. I actually gasped when I read it. I feel really bad for your husband and you. It is so hard when you've quit drinking when something like this comes up because you don't know what to do about it sober. So, you do the thing you have taught yourself for many many years - DRINK. You know that drinking isn't going to solve it but you don't know what else to do. You're a fish out of water, ya' know? And once you drink you say to yourself, "Well that didn't help." Nothing really does help.
I think the best thing you can do is just be there as a friend. I know he wants to talk about the relationship but that may be because he is worried about it. ?? IDK, Only you can find out where he is coming from. But often we get so wrapped up in and angry about, what he ISN'T, and what we DON'T want, and the fact that they can't give us what we DO want, and why doesn't he just LISTEN, and I just can't take anymore of this, that we forget they are human beings with feelings.
Try to talk to him like he's a friend. Try not to tell him anymore what it is you want and just listen and try to see what he feels and he wants. He is probably pretty scared right now, trying to stay sober and having lapsed. I don't mean to say to feel sorry for him or that you haven't done any of these things already.
One thing I have learned in just this past relationship is that alcoholics and drug addicts panic a lot. They don't have a lot of tools and skills to manage stress. They feel things they can't remember ever having felt before. They try to quit many times, and when they can't, or when they fail, they beat themselves up about it and fear that they'll NEVER be able to do it. It can be very difficult to deal with just normal, every day kind of stuff.
You asked in your post if you were "out of line" about sticking to your boundaries and kicking him out no matter what he is going through. I think you have your answer already in your heart and that is why you posted this question, but here is my feedback:
I can't remember all the details about your husband's behavior and your situation, but I've found that when I act out of compassion, when I follow my heart, when I treat others (alcoholic or not, crackaddict or not) the same way I would like to be treated, I feel GOOD ABOUT myself. But when I DON'T treat others compassionately, patiently, kindly (even if they have pi$$ed me WAY off, or "deserve" it because they betrayed me, or even if they are just plain behaving badly) I feel BAD ABOUT myself. That is unhealthy and my Recovery is guided by what is healthy vs what is unhealthy for me.
(Drunks and drug addicts irritate the sh*t out of me and I have no tolerance for them so it is BEST for me to not have them in my life at all. So, I'm not saying I'm great at this either; but it is what I try to strive for.)
Thumper, Ask yourself, is your boundary reasonable? Is the home you live in his home too? Did he contribute to the home and the household? Is this truly a boundary? Or is this a wielding of justifiable anger and, therefore, power?
Can you reasonably expect this man to quit drinking and if he doesn't you will kick him out of his home?
Is this the first boundary you have created? Or have there been any smaller boundaries you have worked on with him?
Everybody says the alcoholic/addict has to hit rock bottom first. But Thumper, just make sure you are not trying to CREATE his rock bottom for him. You can't. And if that is even part of the reason why you want to kick him out, please think twice about it because you are going to affect yourself by basing your decision on this.
I'm not telling you what to do. I can't. I understand you wanting to kick him out; I would want the same thing. But you love this man and you care about him very much, these things are obvious to me. And when you act contrary to your love, your values, your heart, you hammer away at your own self-esteem. It's gonna hurt enough when he goes, when he leaves, when you kick him out, whatever. It's going to hurt and you'll probably cry like a baby just like I did. I don't want you to create more unnecessary hurt for yourself either.
I wish you lived close by so we could go have decaf coffee together and talk :O)
P.S. I don't believe in the rock-bottom theory. I believe that they will seek Recovery when they decide that they just cannot live the kind of life they have been living, anymore. Sometimes it takes a person to get to rock-bottom to make this decision, and sometimes they decide and start Recovery earlier.
But Recovery is a process, and that process is called Life. Make the healthiest decisions for yours.
:ghug2
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
Thank you L2L.
I wanted to act compassionately. I do not think I did. Him worried about the relationship is an understatement. I know the thought of not being with his family is just destroying him but I don't know what to do about that. I can't let him destroy us. I did not tell him he'd have to leave if he started drinking again. That was just said here. I am trying to really look at my behavior to ensure that I am not trying to create a bottom or a crisis. I know I have a tendency to be very passive aggressive and that I manipulate situations. I do not want to do that here.
I do not know how to talk to this man. He hammers and hammers and hammers away until I just say things in a mean a way because no other way seems to work. He needs things so black and white and if he doesn't want to accept something he just keeps hammering. When he is drinking it is exponentially worse of course. Why can't I figure out what to do here? I do not feel good about myself. I do not feel good about him. I do not feel good about kicking him out or about letting him stay. It is his home too, for sure. He *refuses* to take this one day at a time. He refuses to just let it go for even one day. He refuses anything but 100%.
So instead of going to an AA meeting last night he chose to go golfing. And of course he drank. He came home and continued to drink until 4am. From 10pm until 4am he ranted at me the entire time about all the ugly stuff he could think of. I engaged in about 40 minutes of conversation in that 6 hours and the rest of the time he was just going on and on and on. He gets fixated and obsessed. I wasn't even looking at him much less engaging him. I couldn't leave - I can't leave my kids home with him like that.
I started out by saying this is no way to live. Please lets do a separation. You can do your recovery work and when the changes you are going to make are apparent in your behavior, and we are not creating new daily animosities, then we can try counseling. I said I'd go to counseling myself to work on things I do that are very damaging to us (that are genuine things I agree with him on). First he agrees then he doesn't then he veers off into all my dishonestly and double talk (which I do not agree with) and every other verbal insult about my character he can come up with. I ended up telling him that I just didn't even want to do the counseling. I just want to be left alone. Right now I just feel like there is zero chance of counseling working. I don't even want to talk to him much less try and work things out with him.
He has family coming in to stay with us tonight and then tomorrow they have a motel in another town. I pray he goes with them to the visitation tomorrow and then stays with them in the motel tomorrow night He needs to get out of this house a bit I think. It would do him good to be with his family now.
I wanted to act compassionately. I do not think I did. Him worried about the relationship is an understatement. I know the thought of not being with his family is just destroying him but I don't know what to do about that. I can't let him destroy us. I did not tell him he'd have to leave if he started drinking again. That was just said here. I am trying to really look at my behavior to ensure that I am not trying to create a bottom or a crisis. I know I have a tendency to be very passive aggressive and that I manipulate situations. I do not want to do that here.
I do not know how to talk to this man. He hammers and hammers and hammers away until I just say things in a mean a way because no other way seems to work. He needs things so black and white and if he doesn't want to accept something he just keeps hammering. When he is drinking it is exponentially worse of course. Why can't I figure out what to do here? I do not feel good about myself. I do not feel good about him. I do not feel good about kicking him out or about letting him stay. It is his home too, for sure. He *refuses* to take this one day at a time. He refuses to just let it go for even one day. He refuses anything but 100%.
So instead of going to an AA meeting last night he chose to go golfing. And of course he drank. He came home and continued to drink until 4am. From 10pm until 4am he ranted at me the entire time about all the ugly stuff he could think of. I engaged in about 40 minutes of conversation in that 6 hours and the rest of the time he was just going on and on and on. He gets fixated and obsessed. I wasn't even looking at him much less engaging him. I couldn't leave - I can't leave my kids home with him like that.
I started out by saying this is no way to live. Please lets do a separation. You can do your recovery work and when the changes you are going to make are apparent in your behavior, and we are not creating new daily animosities, then we can try counseling. I said I'd go to counseling myself to work on things I do that are very damaging to us (that are genuine things I agree with him on). First he agrees then he doesn't then he veers off into all my dishonestly and double talk (which I do not agree with) and every other verbal insult about my character he can come up with. I ended up telling him that I just didn't even want to do the counseling. I just want to be left alone. Right now I just feel like there is zero chance of counseling working. I don't even want to talk to him much less try and work things out with him.
He has family coming in to stay with us tonight and then tomorrow they have a motel in another town. I pray he goes with them to the visitation tomorrow and then stays with them in the motel tomorrow night He needs to get out of this house a bit I think. It would do him good to be with his family now.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Between the ocean and the mountains
Posts: 653
I'm sorry, Thumper, for all of the ongoing chaos. Many here know what it is to have those all-night-long confrontations with a bullying, drunk spouse.
All I can say is that alcoholics hear what we do, not what we say.
Time for you to do, Thumper. I wish you strength and resolve. His disease is winning, so far.
Bluejay
All I can say is that alcoholics hear what we do, not what we say.
Time for you to do, Thumper. I wish you strength and resolve. His disease is winning, so far.
Bluejay
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Posts: 4,706
Thumper, when I read the posts here on SR, I often wish a specific thing for people. I wish them a good night's sleep, for example (not a bad idea in your case...) or to find a job or to stumble upon a great support system.
For you, I couldn't help but wish that you had some sanctuary. Even if it's just a relative's house or a motel, just to have a place to go to escape the constant battery.
When I lived with such an obsessive person, I called it the Chinese Water Torture.....he just kept at it, day in and day out, until I thought I was crazy. He asked question after question, gave long monologues about All He'd Done For Me, rattled off every accusation that he thought would weaken and beat me down, wouldn't let me sleep. It wasn't until I found some sanctuary -- first behind a locked door, and then my own apartment -- that I realized what it was doing to me.
I literally could not think straight enough to make the right decisions for myself until I put some distance between us and stopped the constant assault of what about me? what about me? what about me? how dare you think about you? what about me?
It's truly an Enhanced Interrogation Technique.
Wishing for you a sanctuary where you (& the kids) can go to escape this torture and hear the small, still voice inside you.
Just as an aside: I found peace for a couple of nights by locking myself in my bedroom with my cell phone, and threatening to call 911 if he dared challenge that or make a fuss. It may come to that break point if his fearsome codependency refuses to give you any room to think, rest, or decide what's best for yourself. Don't be afraid to use law enforcement to save yourself. What he's doing is unacceptable -- don't doubt that for a minute.
For you, I couldn't help but wish that you had some sanctuary. Even if it's just a relative's house or a motel, just to have a place to go to escape the constant battery.
When I lived with such an obsessive person, I called it the Chinese Water Torture.....he just kept at it, day in and day out, until I thought I was crazy. He asked question after question, gave long monologues about All He'd Done For Me, rattled off every accusation that he thought would weaken and beat me down, wouldn't let me sleep. It wasn't until I found some sanctuary -- first behind a locked door, and then my own apartment -- that I realized what it was doing to me.
I literally could not think straight enough to make the right decisions for myself until I put some distance between us and stopped the constant assault of what about me? what about me? what about me? how dare you think about you? what about me?
It's truly an Enhanced Interrogation Technique.
Wishing for you a sanctuary where you (& the kids) can go to escape this torture and hear the small, still voice inside you.
Just as an aside: I found peace for a couple of nights by locking myself in my bedroom with my cell phone, and threatening to call 911 if he dared challenge that or make a fuss. It may come to that break point if his fearsome codependency refuses to give you any room to think, rest, or decide what's best for yourself. Don't be afraid to use law enforcement to save yourself. What he's doing is unacceptable -- don't doubt that for a minute.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
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I am so sorry Thumper that you are living this way, that he acts this way and that you are stuck with this decision. Truly very sorry. My heart aches for you.
I know I have a tendency to be very passive aggressive and that I manipulate situations.
The way you describe your husband sounds like HE really does have some very serious problems, with or without the alcohol. I hope you realize this.
Also, do you understand that what is happening with him has NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING to do with you?
When a person blames you, points their finger at you, accuses you, etc., what they are doing is trying desperately to draw the attention away from themselves because they feel (1) Wrong (2) Guilty (3) Shame and (4) Worthless. The more you can step back, step back from your marriage, step back from your wants, step back from your dreams, the more you will be able to understand and intellectualize what is occurring and the easier it will be to see what he is doing to HIMSELF.
I do not know how to talk to this man. He hammers and hammers and hammers away
My personal understanding of what he is doing is this: I have found that the primary defense mechanism for most people is WORDS, speaking, yelling, screaming. (While for some men it is hitting). Understand that yes, he may be yelling at YOU and saying stupid and hurtful things to YOU, because you are physically THERE, in his presence. But what he is actually doing is trying to PROTECT HIMSELF from HIMSELF and what is going on in his brain (thoughts and feelings of wrong, guilty, shame, worthlessness, etc). The more you understand this, the easier it will be to detach yourself from the situation and let go of all outcomes.
until I just say things in a mean a way because no other way seems to work.
Why can't I figure out what to do here?
I do not feel good about myself.
I do not feel good about him.
I do not feel good about kicking him out
It is his home too, for sure.
I wanted to act compassionately
I am trying to really look at my behavior
He *refuses* to take this one day at a time. He refuses to just let it go for even one day. He refuses anything but 100%. He needs things so black and white
Aside from also being an alcoholic, there are NO grey areas for me either. I am very extreme. My understanding of this is that it is just ONE result of the traumas I have experienced. I'm willing to bet your husband's father is or was alcoholic, yes?
Folks like me who have experienced this kind of thing also have a VERY exaggerated fear of abandonment. It can cause us to become very panicked and possibly "hammer away" like you describe. When something occurs between me and a partner, I will NOT let up and will actually FOLLOW them around the house yelling and screaming at them. Alcohol is often used by folks like me to quell this fear and panic. Why? Because trying to live in this world feels like you are going to DIE. ESPECIALLY when you are so emotionally dependent on the person you love.
Thumper, I also hammer away, must try to control the situation by yelling and screaming, panic so much and feel so much fear of death that it's impossible to take one day at a time - because I am just trying to keep from dying however possible.
Do you realize that your husband is JUST AS if not MORE Codependent than you are? Have you read Melody Beattie's "Codependent No More"?
It sounds like you are still unsure what to do. If so, here are some questions that answering for yourself might help you to make the healthiest decision possible for your entire family.
Have you decided you want to divorce this person because you just can't live this way anymore? Or are you still not sure in your heart that this is what you want to do?
Are you able to sit down with him at any time and have a calm, reasonable conversation?
Will the negative effects on your feelings about yourself be GREATER than the relief you will get for yourself and your children if he leaves the home?
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
Givelove: I would love a sanctuary. You were very on the mark. It feels good to be understood.
Learn2Live: Your posts are very helpful. Thank you.
I know. I've done that before. To much probably. It is a coping skill for me but it seems to be very damaging to him.
Sometimes it works. When I say mean I don't really ever attack his character. I think those mean things in my head but don't give voice to them 
An example. I have said the following things. "We are over, I am done." "I do not see a future for us." "I would like a separation." I have actually served him with divorce papers, which were later withdrawn. Two nights ago he said I was inconsistent and dishonest. I finally said "I do not want to be married to you." This apparently worked. Now he is stuck on this. He asked me over and over if this is what I mean, what do I want..... So since I know it works I'll say "I do not want to be married to you." again. and again. and I know it is killing him but the only way to not do it is to say a non-truth and commit myself to something that I don't want.
I agree with that.
I don't know.
He says he loves me. He believes he loves me. It does not feel like love. It feels like something he is taking from me, not giving to me if that makes sense. I feel like I need to strongly protect myself - to keep him well away. It keeps me from allowing any emotional or physical intimacy at all. I honestly have no idea if that feeling is really based on him or something that is messed up inside myself.
I want to act compassionately. I also have a lot of anxiety surrounding what is best for my kids. I know that living like this is not the best thing but I constantly question that if I just got over myself, went to the marriage counseling, and made the best of it that it would be a better choice. Of course he knows me well enough to have figured that out and it is one of the things he hammers me with - for a long long while now.
Thank you for sharing this. Very accurate for him I think - insightful. His father was an alcoholic and in fact died of alcohol related illness when he was 17yo. I know that the loss of his mother is a very very difficult blow. I now that the thought of moving out, away from his family, is just devastating.
That had never really occurred to me. That makes me so sad. The library doesn't have it so I ordered the book - just haven't gotten it yet.
This.
We were able to do that three nights ago. It can only happen when he is not drinking. When he is drinking, he drinks every day, so there is no chance to build a relationship around the alcohol. No way I can see to detach from the alcohol without detaching from the person. He's relapsed. He's drank the last two days and I have no idea about today but he just called me so he must not be at the AA meeting.
No, but if the kids go off the deep end and/or hate me I'll never forgive myself.
I now there is no crystal ball. My MO is to manipulate all factors until I'm fairly sure of the outcome before I take an action. Of course, that leads to no action in many circumstances, which is not a good thing. I need to trust in God. I need to let it go and turn it over. I just don't know how.
Learn2Live: Your posts are very helpful. Thank you.
I think given what you have said about what he does, like last night till 4 in the morning, it will be best if you do not speak to him at all unless you absolutely need to for only practical things.
When you're mean to him, do you get the result you were looking for in the first place?
An example. I have said the following things. "We are over, I am done." "I do not see a future for us." "I would like a separation." I have actually served him with divorce papers, which were later withdrawn. Two nights ago he said I was inconsistent and dishonest. I finally said "I do not want to be married to you." This apparently worked. Now he is stuck on this. He asked me over and over if this is what I mean, what do I want..... So since I know it works I'll say "I do not want to be married to you." again. and again. and I know it is killing him but the only way to not do it is to say a non-truth and commit myself to something that I don't want.
Because this problem is WAY BIGGER than you. This man needs a TEAM of people to deal with him. You are not equipped to live with a person with these kinds of problems.
Do you know why you don't feel good about yourself?
In what way do you not feel good about him?
Is the reason you do not feel good about kicking him out this?:
Maybe my sharing what about him sounds like me, will help you.
Aside from also being an alcoholic, there are NO grey areas for me either. I am very extreme. My understanding of this is that it is just ONE result of the traumas I have experienced. I'm willing to bet your husband's father is or was alcoholic, yes?
Folks like me who have experienced this kind of thing also have a VERY exaggerated fear of abandonment. It can cause us to become very panicked and possibly "hammer away" like you describe. When something occurs between me and a partner, I will NOT let up and will actually FOLLOW them around the house yelling and screaming at them. Alcohol is often used by folks like me to quell this fear and panic. Why? Because trying to live in this world feels like you are going to DIE. ESPECIALLY when you are so emotionally dependent on the person you love.
Aside from also being an alcoholic, there are NO grey areas for me either. I am very extreme. My understanding of this is that it is just ONE result of the traumas I have experienced. I'm willing to bet your husband's father is or was alcoholic, yes?
Folks like me who have experienced this kind of thing also have a VERY exaggerated fear of abandonment. It can cause us to become very panicked and possibly "hammer away" like you describe. When something occurs between me and a partner, I will NOT let up and will actually FOLLOW them around the house yelling and screaming at them. Alcohol is often used by folks like me to quell this fear and panic. Why? Because trying to live in this world feels like you are going to DIE. ESPECIALLY when you are so emotionally dependent on the person you love.
Do you realize that your husband is JUST AS if not MORE Codependent than you are? Have you read Melody Beattie's "Codependent No More"?
Have you decided you want to divorce this person because you just can't live this way anymore?
Are you able to sit down with him at any time and have a calm, reasonable conversation?
Will the negative effects on your feelings about yourself be GREATER than the relief you will get for yourself and your children if he leaves the home?
I now there is no crystal ball. My MO is to manipulate all factors until I'm fairly sure of the outcome before I take an action. Of course, that leads to no action in many circumstances, which is not a good thing. I need to trust in God. I need to let it go and turn it over. I just don't know how.
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
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Thumper, please go read on the "Adult Children of A's forum".
There is where you will see what this is doing to your children and how it will carry into their adulthood.
You CANNOT fix him. You CANNOT change him. You didn't CAUSE this. You CANNOT cure this.
What you CAN do is take care of you and the children. Get yourself and the children counseling and sad to say, remove you and the children from this mess.
It does not have to be 'for ever.' But a 'legal separation' would be a good start, thus getting an order from the court, including child support, to give you and the children time and space. Time to watch his ACTIONS not his words. Time to work on you and give you and the children some peace and serenity.
I know this is extremely hard for you and I know that none of us make the move until "enough is enough."
Have you had ENOUGH yet?
Love and hugs,
There is where you will see what this is doing to your children and how it will carry into their adulthood.
You CANNOT fix him. You CANNOT change him. You didn't CAUSE this. You CANNOT cure this.
What you CAN do is take care of you and the children. Get yourself and the children counseling and sad to say, remove you and the children from this mess.
It does not have to be 'for ever.' But a 'legal separation' would be a good start, thus getting an order from the court, including child support, to give you and the children time and space. Time to watch his ACTIONS not his words. Time to work on you and give you and the children some peace and serenity.
I know this is extremely hard for you and I know that none of us make the move until "enough is enough."
Have you had ENOUGH yet?
Love and hugs,
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
Laurie and Anvil,
I have had enough. I have read over there and I just read a book called 'It Will Never Happen to Me!' It has to be enough, it can't go on. Only I can change it...and I can.
Thanks for the reminder. I can't get side tracked anymore. I have to stay focused right now.
The reminders about cause, control, cure were also helpful. I wish the 'feeling' of something came a little closer on the heals of the 'knowing' something.
I have had enough. I have read over there and I just read a book called 'It Will Never Happen to Me!' It has to be enough, it can't go on. Only I can change it...and I can.
Thanks for the reminder. I can't get side tracked anymore. I have to stay focused right now.
The reminders about cause, control, cure were also helpful. I wish the 'feeling' of something came a little closer on the heals of the 'knowing' something.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Anywhere but the mainstream.
Posts: 402
Originally Posted by Thumper 
He says he loves me. He believes he loves me. It does not feel like love. It feels like something he is taking from me, not giving to me if that makes sense.
When I "love" him as he accepts, I am his mother. I don't complain if he forgets my birthday. I have to hound him to remember special events in my life. I love him "for who he is", and he doesn't have to do anything to improve because according to these rules, he is still loved.
That was before.
Now we don't talk. We can't. We can't even agree on the same reality. In his mind our relationship is perfect. If I raise points to counter that fantasy, he employs the SAME Enhanced Interrogation Technique (as described by GiveLove) that you've described here in your post. He provides point-by-point excuses why reality isn't really what I say it is - why my feelings aren't really what I say they are.
Do you know why you don't feel good about yourself?
You may relate to this. Your children may relate to this. Family members may deal with it differently, but the damage is still the same. We all walk away knowing that we are not enough. We are not even enough for our loved one to put the bottle down and save themself from self-destruction. Maybe we are not enough to be loved in the way we've been wanting.
I enjoy reading posts such as yours on this forum because when I start feeling guilty about how I've had to put great distance between me and my dad (whose conversations were literally making me sick), these posts remind me of how similar our stories are. It reminds me that this relationship is crippled not because of me anymore than your marriage is suffering because of you. It's cripplied because of the choices the alcoholics in our lives make. Choices that neither you nor I have any control over.
That's fine and dandy, but in the meantime, we can start healing because of the choices we make. Please hang in there, Thumper! It sounds like you're facing a heart-wrenching reality, but at the same time, you are stronger than you've ever realized if you have the ability to stand up and recognize it. You deserve a much, MUCH better day-to-day life than this - you and your children!
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: In the barn
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by Thumper
No, but if the kids go off the deep end and/or hate me I'll never forgive myself.
In fact, watching you separate from your codependence and form healthy boundaries will teach them about healthy adult relationships.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by dothi
[COLOR="DarkRed"]ACOA here. This really struck a chord with me, because this is what I feel with my alcoholic father. He says he loves me. I believe he believes he loves me. But his understanding of love is far, far different from mine.
When I "love" him as he accepts, I am his mother. I don't complain if he forgets my birthday. I have to hound him to remember special events in my life. I love him "for who he is", and he doesn't have to do anything to improve because according to these rules, he is still loved.
That was before.
Now we don't talk. We can't. We can't even agree on the same reality. In his mind our relationship is perfect. If I raise points to counter that fantasy, he employs the SAME Enhanced Interrogation Technique (as described by GiveLove) that you've described here in your post. He provides point-by-point excuses why reality isn't really what I say it is - why my feelings aren't really what I say they are.
When I "love" him as he accepts, I am his mother. I don't complain if he forgets my birthday. I have to hound him to remember special events in my life. I love him "for who he is", and he doesn't have to do anything to improve because according to these rules, he is still loved.
That was before.
Now we don't talk. We can't. We can't even agree on the same reality. In his mind our relationship is perfect. If I raise points to counter that fantasy, he employs the SAME Enhanced Interrogation Technique (as described by GiveLove) that you've described here in your post. He provides point-by-point excuses why reality isn't really what I say it is - why my feelings aren't really what I say they are.
Thank you for the rest of your encouraging words.
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