Looking for input on a boundary issue
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: In the barn
Posts: 324
Looking for input on a boundary issue
My husband (mentally ill, codependence issues on both sides) and I have been separated for just over two weeks. We have been sharing parenting time. During the week, because they have to be dropped off too early for him to be able to take them, they have evening parenting time with him on Tuesdays, and Wednesdays, I have them Monday and Thursday, they spend Sunday night, and Monday through Thursday from bedtime on with me. Fridays are his overnight, and every other Saturday. Its a pretty equitable share, except for the lack of overnight during the week.
He picks them up from school/daycare on Mon, Tues, Thurs and Fri because he gets out an hour earlier than I do. On Mondays and thursdays he brings them here to the house and lets out the dogs and hangs out for a half hour or so until I come home, then he heads to his apartment. On his days, he picks them up and goes to his apartment.
Yesterday I came home from work to find his car in the driveway and him in the house. I was talking to my son in the backseat when he came out with my daughter, said pretty much not a word to me and they left for her soccer practice.
We both had meetings last night, so I texted him to please call me when he was done because I had a couple of things I wanted to discuss. One was some problems our daughter is having, but the other was to ask him to please call me or notify me if he is needing to enter the house at any time other than our agreed times.
I presented it to him as this: "I would like to ask you to please let me know if you are planning on coming to the house at a time that is outside of our agreed and expected times for you to be there." I guess I just assumed he would agree, but he did not. His response was that this is still his house too and he should be able to come and go as he wants. My response (not in angry tone but very calm) was that to me that would be the same as if I had keys to his apartment and just showed up whenever I wanted to. He argued that it was *his* apartment, not mine, but his name is on the mortgage of the house.
We haven't formalized our separation yet. We have agreed to not do so unless it is necessary; he is terrified of the court system, and I dont' want them to try and enforce child support that he cannot pay. I make enough to make ends meet and don't plan on asking for support money until or unless he gets a better job. If they enforce child support he won't be able to pay his rent and work transportation costs, then he would have to move out of state to his parents and the kids wouldn't be able to see him. Its not a decision to help him, so much, as it is one to help the kids be able to have time with their dad, if that makes sense.
Anyway, we ended the conversation with him saying he needed to think about my request and me saying to let me know what he decided he needed to do.
Here is my question: If he does not agree to the boundary I have set, my intentions are to:
1) Have the locks on the house changed
2) File for formal separation - request primary residence be awarded to me. There is very little equity, I might have to refinance to buy him out but its not likely I can get a refi as we are both declaring bankruptcy. If I go for the separation, he will likely be required to pay child support. I prefer having him come to let the dogs out and to pick the kids up, but I will do what I have to do to make sure that he doesn't just go waltzing in and out of my house whenever he wants to.
Am I obligated to let him know these are the consequences if he decides to step over my boundary? If this were one of you more advanced 12-steppers, how would you approach this discussion? I think it woudl be helpful for me to have some approaches to model, it will help me if I have some thoughts catalogued ahead of time so I don't have to just think on my feet - that usually leaves me more open to be angry and say things that aren't helpful.
Any advice you have is very appreciated.
He picks them up from school/daycare on Mon, Tues, Thurs and Fri because he gets out an hour earlier than I do. On Mondays and thursdays he brings them here to the house and lets out the dogs and hangs out for a half hour or so until I come home, then he heads to his apartment. On his days, he picks them up and goes to his apartment.
Yesterday I came home from work to find his car in the driveway and him in the house. I was talking to my son in the backseat when he came out with my daughter, said pretty much not a word to me and they left for her soccer practice.
We both had meetings last night, so I texted him to please call me when he was done because I had a couple of things I wanted to discuss. One was some problems our daughter is having, but the other was to ask him to please call me or notify me if he is needing to enter the house at any time other than our agreed times.
I presented it to him as this: "I would like to ask you to please let me know if you are planning on coming to the house at a time that is outside of our agreed and expected times for you to be there." I guess I just assumed he would agree, but he did not. His response was that this is still his house too and he should be able to come and go as he wants. My response (not in angry tone but very calm) was that to me that would be the same as if I had keys to his apartment and just showed up whenever I wanted to. He argued that it was *his* apartment, not mine, but his name is on the mortgage of the house.
We haven't formalized our separation yet. We have agreed to not do so unless it is necessary; he is terrified of the court system, and I dont' want them to try and enforce child support that he cannot pay. I make enough to make ends meet and don't plan on asking for support money until or unless he gets a better job. If they enforce child support he won't be able to pay his rent and work transportation costs, then he would have to move out of state to his parents and the kids wouldn't be able to see him. Its not a decision to help him, so much, as it is one to help the kids be able to have time with their dad, if that makes sense.
Anyway, we ended the conversation with him saying he needed to think about my request and me saying to let me know what he decided he needed to do.
Here is my question: If he does not agree to the boundary I have set, my intentions are to:
1) Have the locks on the house changed
2) File for formal separation - request primary residence be awarded to me. There is very little equity, I might have to refinance to buy him out but its not likely I can get a refi as we are both declaring bankruptcy. If I go for the separation, he will likely be required to pay child support. I prefer having him come to let the dogs out and to pick the kids up, but I will do what I have to do to make sure that he doesn't just go waltzing in and out of my house whenever he wants to.
Am I obligated to let him know these are the consequences if he decides to step over my boundary? If this were one of you more advanced 12-steppers, how would you approach this discussion? I think it woudl be helpful for me to have some approaches to model, it will help me if I have some thoughts catalogued ahead of time so I don't have to just think on my feet - that usually leaves me more open to be angry and say things that aren't helpful.
Any advice you have is very appreciated.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 611
Legally, if the house is still in his name you cannot change the locks. He is correct in that the house is really "HIS." I think you should go through court and have it done correctly. SOmething as simple as changing the locks could hurt you further down the road when it's time to go to court or things could get even nastier very quickly.
Question: Why doesn't he stay in the house and you get your own apartment?
Question: Why doesn't he stay in the house and you get your own apartment?
Blu**ed Lines...A ClockWork SR
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,529
Agree with above. Do you have an attorney? There are some free legal resources you could google.
"was *his* apartment, not mine, but his name is on the mortgage of the house."
Some sort of restraining order sounds good. Are you worried about your physical safety?
"We haven't formalized our separation yet" Why not? Are you still trying to work things out? What sort of "mental illness"? A lot of missing blanks need to be filled in for any sort of real advice IMHO. Boundaries are great, but they need to be enforced and should be legal Best of luck. Take the best actions you can figure out for the health and safety of all those involved.
"was *his* apartment, not mine, but his name is on the mortgage of the house."
Some sort of restraining order sounds good. Are you worried about your physical safety?
"We haven't formalized our separation yet" Why not? Are you still trying to work things out? What sort of "mental illness"? A lot of missing blanks need to be filled in for any sort of real advice IMHO. Boundaries are great, but they need to be enforced and should be legal Best of luck. Take the best actions you can figure out for the health and safety of all those involved.
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
Check with an attorney, get the 'legal separation' finalized.
I will disagree with the last two posters in that it depends on the LAWS of your State. In some states, with him in his own apartment, even though his name may be on the mortgage, it becomes more like a landlord/lessee situation wherein landlord has to give 24 hour notice before entering premises, etc etc and cannot go in and out as they dang well please.
Your best bet, is get that 'agreement' set up in Court. Get an attorney. He's going to play games with you and manipulate you and on and on and on. When an agreement is signed by both parties and then approved by the court you have some legal 'clout' behind what your boundaries are and will be.
It's called CYA ........ Cover your azz.
Please, see an attorney.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
I will disagree with the last two posters in that it depends on the LAWS of your State. In some states, with him in his own apartment, even though his name may be on the mortgage, it becomes more like a landlord/lessee situation wherein landlord has to give 24 hour notice before entering premises, etc etc and cannot go in and out as they dang well please.
Your best bet, is get that 'agreement' set up in Court. Get an attorney. He's going to play games with you and manipulate you and on and on and on. When an agreement is signed by both parties and then approved by the court you have some legal 'clout' behind what your boundaries are and will be.
It's called CYA ........ Cover your azz.
Please, see an attorney.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Let me make sure I'm reading this correctly: You have separated but not legally, that is, no court has yet been involved. He moved out of the family home and nows lives elsewhere. He picks the children up some days, spends time with them, brings them to the family home, and returns to his new place. He doesn't spend the night in the family home.
If this is the case, in my opinion, you absolutely have a right to set these personal boundaries. You have every right to know when someone is in and out of your house, and what to expect when you arrive home, no matter whose name the mortgage is in. He is not your CHILD, he is an adult. It is normal to expect an adult to respect another person's space, regardless of whether or not he OWNS the house; he doesn't live there anymore.
I think what you are asking is about the personal boundary-setting, not the legalities, yes? I'm assuming this in my response.
What this appears to me to be is your VERY EXCELLENT attempt to communicate your personal boundaries. Good job! (Isn't it WEIRD when you communicate your boundaries the first couple times? It's still very weird for me.)
Anyway, what occurred was that this attempt just turned into an argument because the way the boundary statement was worded still gave him the option to do whatever he wants without recourse, and opened the topic up for discussion and argument. He argued a little, then, when that didn't get him what he wanted, he strongarmed you with the old "I OWN THE HOUSE" bit.
Don't be afraid to try again. Don't be intimidated or embarrassed by this first try, just pretend it's practice!! And if you mess up or he starts interrupting you the second time, do what I do and say (nicely), "Could you please wait a minute to say what you want, and help me with this? I am trying to practice setting my personal boundaries." If he's any kind of a man, he'll shut up and listen.
Anyway, here's how I learned to set my personal boundaries with another person:
First, pick a time when both of you have enough time to devote to the discussion. It could be 15 minutes. Agree to the time beforehand. Make sure that both of you are sober at the time of discussion. Better to do it sitting down, next to eachother, not across from eachother. Prepare yourself by taking a deep breath. It's OK to go slowly, it's OK to write it down ahead of time and use what you have written to make your statements. Here's what you say (I underlined the parts that you always use in a boundary statement, the rest you fill in the blank):
_____________________
Bob (or whatever his name is),
1. When you go into the house and you do not let me know ahead of time that you are going to do so, I feel uncomfortable, intimidated and afraid for my physical safety.
2. Therefore, I would like for you to call me and let me know ahead-of-time when you are going to enter the house without my previous knowledge.
3. If you enter the house again without my previous knowledge, I will change the locks on the house.
Do you have any questions Bob?
______________________
I wouldn't use the formal separation alternative yet. I think you should go with a smaller, less hostile option like calling the police, changing the locks, something like that.
No, you're not obligated. But if you want to practice boundary setting, once you SET your personal boundary, you should communicate it to the other person, give a short explanation of why, and state the consequences if he does not respect your boundary. By the way, it's probably not effective to say something like, "When you go into the house, I get pi$$ed off." That's not a really valid argument.
anyway, You must follow through with the consequence. Otherwise, you're boundary statement becomes an empty threat and he'll see that he can continue to walk all over you.
Of course, you could just change the locks. I'm no lawyer but You and the kids live there, he doesn't; he's got his own place. Doesn't matter who's on the mortgage. What's he gonna' do, call the police when he can't get in? Then he's gonna run home and get his mortgage papers and then come back to the house to show the police? Let him call away that's what I say. Of course, if he's the violent type, I'd rethink the whole thing.
If this is the case, in my opinion, you absolutely have a right to set these personal boundaries. You have every right to know when someone is in and out of your house, and what to expect when you arrive home, no matter whose name the mortgage is in. He is not your CHILD, he is an adult. It is normal to expect an adult to respect another person's space, regardless of whether or not he OWNS the house; he doesn't live there anymore.
I think what you are asking is about the personal boundary-setting, not the legalities, yes? I'm assuming this in my response.
I presented it to him as this: "I would like to ask you to please let me know if you are planning on coming to the house at a time that is outside of our agreed and expected times for you to be there." I guess I just assumed he would agree, but he did not. His response was that this is still his house too and he should be able to come and go as he wants. My response (not in angry tone but very calm) was that to me that would be the same as if I had keys to his apartment and just showed up whenever I wanted to. He argued that it was *his* apartment, not mine, but his name is on the mortgage of the house.
Anyway, what occurred was that this attempt just turned into an argument because the way the boundary statement was worded still gave him the option to do whatever he wants without recourse, and opened the topic up for discussion and argument. He argued a little, then, when that didn't get him what he wanted, he strongarmed you with the old "I OWN THE HOUSE" bit.
Don't be afraid to try again. Don't be intimidated or embarrassed by this first try, just pretend it's practice!! And if you mess up or he starts interrupting you the second time, do what I do and say (nicely), "Could you please wait a minute to say what you want, and help me with this? I am trying to practice setting my personal boundaries." If he's any kind of a man, he'll shut up and listen.
Anyway, here's how I learned to set my personal boundaries with another person:
First, pick a time when both of you have enough time to devote to the discussion. It could be 15 minutes. Agree to the time beforehand. Make sure that both of you are sober at the time of discussion. Better to do it sitting down, next to eachother, not across from eachother. Prepare yourself by taking a deep breath. It's OK to go slowly, it's OK to write it down ahead of time and use what you have written to make your statements. Here's what you say (I underlined the parts that you always use in a boundary statement, the rest you fill in the blank):
_____________________
Bob (or whatever his name is),
1. When you go into the house and you do not let me know ahead of time that you are going to do so, I feel uncomfortable, intimidated and afraid for my physical safety.
2. Therefore, I would like for you to call me and let me know ahead-of-time when you are going to enter the house without my previous knowledge.
3. If you enter the house again without my previous knowledge, I will change the locks on the house.
Do you have any questions Bob?
______________________
I wouldn't use the formal separation alternative yet. I think you should go with a smaller, less hostile option like calling the police, changing the locks, something like that.
Am I obligated to let him know these are the consequences if he decides to step over my boundary?
anyway, You must follow through with the consequence. Otherwise, you're boundary statement becomes an empty threat and he'll see that he can continue to walk all over you.
Of course, you could just change the locks. I'm no lawyer but You and the kids live there, he doesn't; he's got his own place. Doesn't matter who's on the mortgage. What's he gonna' do, call the police when he can't get in? Then he's gonna run home and get his mortgage papers and then come back to the house to show the police? Let him call away that's what I say. Of course, if he's the violent type, I'd rethink the whole thing.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: In the barn
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by URMYEVERYTHING 
Question: Why doesn't he stay in the house and you get your own apartment?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: In the barn
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
Let me make sure I'm reading this correctly: You have separated but not legally, that is, no court has yet been involved. He moved out of the family home and nows lives elsewhere. He picks the children up some days, spends time with them, brings them to the family home, and returns to his new place. He doesn't spend the night in the family home.
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
I think what you are asking is about the personal boundary-setting, not the legalities, yes? I'm assuming this in my response.
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
Anyway, what occurred was that this attempt just turned into an argument because the way the boundary statement was worded still gave him the option to do whatever he wants without recourse, and opened the topic up for discussion and argument.
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
_____________________
Bob (or whatever his name is),
1. When you go into the house and you do not let me know ahead of time that you are going to do so, I feel uncomfortable, intimidated and afraid for my physical safety.
2. Therefore, I would like for you to call me and let me know ahead-of-time when you are going to enter the house without my previous knowledge.
3. If you enter the house again without my previous knowledge, I will change the locks on the house.
Do you have any questions Bob?
______________________
Bob (or whatever his name is),
1. When you go into the house and you do not let me know ahead of time that you are going to do so, I feel uncomfortable, intimidated and afraid for my physical safety.
2. Therefore, I would like for you to call me and let me know ahead-of-time when you are going to enter the house without my previous knowledge.
3. If you enter the house again without my previous knowledge, I will change the locks on the house.
Do you have any questions Bob?
______________________
Wow, thank you for this, I might change some of the wording. "When you go into the house and do not let me know ahead of time I am uncomfortable and feel that you are violating my privacy. Additionally, there might be times when I have guests (my parents, my brother, a friend from out of town) staying in the house." He has gone through my cell phone texts in the past and although I'm not positive he would try to read my emails and check my phone messages, I don't want to give him too many opportunities to do so. I forgot to mention (in fact, I forgot about it completely until just now) that his exact first response when I asked him to let me know first before coming over was "Why? Are you hiding something?"
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
Of course, if he's the violent type, I'd rethink the whole thing.
Also, thanks to Laurie for the advice about checking state laws to see about landlord/lessee status.
You guys are awfully good at this stuff. <<insert warm fuzzy here>>
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 633
They will not force him to pay CS unless you tell them to. They may enter an order but if tell them not to enforce it they won't.
My exah pulled the same crap, I changed the locks and told him to go ahead and take me to court, he did nothing.
My exah pulled the same crap, I changed the locks and told him to go ahead and take me to court, he did nothing.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Hey cowgirl. Do you like cows? I LOVE cows! I don't eat beef cause I think there is a cow conspiracy! LOL
You're welcome.
You SHOULD change it to what you feel. But, try to keep it simple. You might confuse the matter by explaining too much. Try to keep the "I feel" statement ONLY to express your feelings.
Write your boundary statements out ahead of time, practice with a trusted friend. Ask them if you've just confused them. You want to be clear and concise. When you explain why try to keep it short, general, and especially non-judgmental. Otherwise, you're just starting another fight.
"I feel you are violating..." is better said: "I feel violated." Take the "you" out of it. That just makes him defensive. The "I feel" statement is strictly for you to communicate your feelings to him. Wait to say "you" until you get to the "If you" statement.
I wouldn't use this in the boundary statement just yet. If you succeed at this first boundary, this second one may become a non-issue? You have a valid complaint, in my opinion. But it's understandable what he's doing; he's probably afraid you are going to find someone else, cause that will hurt his feelings. I admit, I've done it, I've checked my ex'es cell phone out of fear.
Wow, thank you for this,
I might change some of the wording. "When you go into the house and do not let me know ahead of time I am uncomfortable and feel that you are violating my privacy. Additionally, there might be times when I have guests (my parents, my brother, a friend from out of town) staying in the house."
Write your boundary statements out ahead of time, practice with a trusted friend. Ask them if you've just confused them. You want to be clear and concise. When you explain why try to keep it short, general, and especially non-judgmental. Otherwise, you're just starting another fight.
"I feel you are violating..." is better said: "I feel violated." Take the "you" out of it. That just makes him defensive. The "I feel" statement is strictly for you to communicate your feelings to him. Wait to say "you" until you get to the "If you" statement.
He has gone through my cell phone texts in the past and although I'm not positive he would try to read my emails and check my phone messages, I don't want to give him too many opportunities to do so. I forgot to mention (in fact, I forgot about it completely until just now) that his exact first response when I asked him to let me know first before coming over was "Why? Are you hiding something?"
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 611
Only you know what his reaction will be if you change the locks. If he's the type to blow air and not act, then change them. If he's the type that will drag you down in court then seek legal help/advice.
Yes, I agree... you have the RIGHT to personal boundaries but I just wouldn't want to see you in a predicament that would cause more stress on you. Best of luck. Keep us posted. I'm interested to hear how this turns out.
I may need this advice later. LOL.
Yes, I agree... you have the RIGHT to personal boundaries but I just wouldn't want to see you in a predicament that would cause more stress on you. Best of luck. Keep us posted. I'm interested to hear how this turns out.
I may need this advice later. LOL.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Omak WA
Posts: 1,049
Seperated....not legal yet.
MAY TRIGGER............MAY TRIGGER
Hi Cowgirl,
I had this happen to me when I divorced my second husband. He already had a court order in place from his arrest...to stay within 500 feet of our home. Also I did get a lawyer and he wasn't allowed to contact us at all but he did and he would call me all hours after I was home from work.
He also came into the house when I was at work or gone for the weekend. So I had to get another court order in place but nothing worked unless he was still there by the time the police got there.
I finally took a list of the things he was doing to me & our daughter to his probation officer and he didn't believe me...I felt like I was the criminal rather than the victim. My counselor did have a meeting with his probation officer, his sexual abuse counselor and his lawyer...she had never done this before but it worked.
Also there was a court order for the house in place that I be allowed to live in the home until the divorce was final or the home was sold. He was to pay the house payments because he was Retired Military & worked so made about three times as much as I did.
He ignored the court order so I sold the house which we didn't have much equity in either & his share went to the back house payments & mine went to pay my lawyer. He was so good...I never had to appear in court once & when school was out my daughter and I moved away back to where my grown kids lived.
This was in 1984 and I sobered up for the last time in 1988 and am still sober and getting help for my chronic depression.
There is lots more between the lines but my intent was to keep my seven year old daughter safe from any more harm. I felt like I went to H***& back before I got some sober time in but I made it.
It is hard to go through all of this & it sounds like a pretty complicated visitation schedule to keep up with....confusing for the kids too but that is your decision. The judge did all of that deciding for me.
kelsh
Hi Cowgirl,
I had this happen to me when I divorced my second husband. He already had a court order in place from his arrest...to stay within 500 feet of our home. Also I did get a lawyer and he wasn't allowed to contact us at all but he did and he would call me all hours after I was home from work.
He also came into the house when I was at work or gone for the weekend. So I had to get another court order in place but nothing worked unless he was still there by the time the police got there.
I finally took a list of the things he was doing to me & our daughter to his probation officer and he didn't believe me...I felt like I was the criminal rather than the victim. My counselor did have a meeting with his probation officer, his sexual abuse counselor and his lawyer...she had never done this before but it worked.
Also there was a court order for the house in place that I be allowed to live in the home until the divorce was final or the home was sold. He was to pay the house payments because he was Retired Military & worked so made about three times as much as I did.
He ignored the court order so I sold the house which we didn't have much equity in either & his share went to the back house payments & mine went to pay my lawyer. He was so good...I never had to appear in court once & when school was out my daughter and I moved away back to where my grown kids lived.
This was in 1984 and I sobered up for the last time in 1988 and am still sober and getting help for my chronic depression.
There is lots more between the lines but my intent was to keep my seven year old daughter safe from any more harm. I felt like I went to H***& back before I got some sober time in but I made it.
It is hard to go through all of this & it sounds like a pretty complicated visitation schedule to keep up with....confusing for the kids too but that is your decision. The judge did all of that deciding for me.
kelsh
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,888
I think L2L has given some excellent points on boundaries. Boundaries really started to click for me when I learned to make them matter of fact and all about me rather than leaving anything open for debate or discussion and including any accusation in them with the "you do this or that" statements.
My biggest issue with my XABF was when he would be intoxicated and start a seemingly pleasant conversation with me that, without warning, would turn nasty. When I felt the need to verbalize my boundary, which by the way did not occur until well after I began enforcing it, I told him that there were times when I was with him that I felt fearful. There are different circumstances in which this could occur, but I would be leaving the room and seeking a safe place in the house or I would leave the home if I felt it necessary. I told him I would not explain myself at the time nor would I discuss it with him later unless I felt safe in doing so.
He initially tried to debate the issue and asked when was it that I felt so unsafe and insisted I give him examples. I told him that my emotions are not open for debate, but if he would like a point of reference I could give him an example of when this happened. But, of course, he knew exactly what behavior of his I was talking about and simply responded that he understood. He curtly asked if that was all I had to say and I said it was.
A month or so later, after several times this boundary was upheld by me, he said he was sorry that he got angry and I left the room. He tried to make an excuse for his behavior, something involving his job, and I tuned him out and waited for him to finish. I told him as nicely as I could muster that the apology would be accepted only if the behavior stopped. He didn't bother with the shallow apologies after that.
I told you that to tell you this....I agree with focusing on what you feel stating that feeling as fact without any room for discussion. It's not about an apology from him because it's not coming, and if it does come, it's not worth anything. It's not about seeking a change in his behavior (getting him to call you first or to stop coming in the house), it's about telling him how you feel and what you intend to do when these feelings come up. He can choose to change his behavior to avoid the consequence or not.
I wish you the best!! Boundaries work if you keep working at them.
Alice
My biggest issue with my XABF was when he would be intoxicated and start a seemingly pleasant conversation with me that, without warning, would turn nasty. When I felt the need to verbalize my boundary, which by the way did not occur until well after I began enforcing it, I told him that there were times when I was with him that I felt fearful. There are different circumstances in which this could occur, but I would be leaving the room and seeking a safe place in the house or I would leave the home if I felt it necessary. I told him I would not explain myself at the time nor would I discuss it with him later unless I felt safe in doing so.
He initially tried to debate the issue and asked when was it that I felt so unsafe and insisted I give him examples. I told him that my emotions are not open for debate, but if he would like a point of reference I could give him an example of when this happened. But, of course, he knew exactly what behavior of his I was talking about and simply responded that he understood. He curtly asked if that was all I had to say and I said it was.
A month or so later, after several times this boundary was upheld by me, he said he was sorry that he got angry and I left the room. He tried to make an excuse for his behavior, something involving his job, and I tuned him out and waited for him to finish. I told him as nicely as I could muster that the apology would be accepted only if the behavior stopped. He didn't bother with the shallow apologies after that.
I told you that to tell you this....I agree with focusing on what you feel stating that feeling as fact without any room for discussion. It's not about an apology from him because it's not coming, and if it does come, it's not worth anything. It's not about seeking a change in his behavior (getting him to call you first or to stop coming in the house), it's about telling him how you feel and what you intend to do when these feelings come up. He can choose to change his behavior to avoid the consequence or not.
I wish you the best!! Boundaries work if you keep working at them.
Alice
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wizard Land Downunder
Posts: 2,615
I don't know anything about the law where you are Cowgirl. But finding my AH, who I was separated from, was coming into my homewhenever he wanted, would freak me out.
I agree that a legal separation that specifies the rights for both of you, may be the only way you could sort it, particularly as he is not really co-operative.
Give stating your boundaries as suggested in other posts, so he understands just why you are upset and want a secure home. If he won't come to the party, then perhaps you tell him you need it legally formalised asap, because it is important to you and you are not prepared to dicker over his entry rights.
All the best dearie, in a hard situation.
God bless
I agree that a legal separation that specifies the rights for both of you, may be the only way you could sort it, particularly as he is not really co-operative.
Give stating your boundaries as suggested in other posts, so he understands just why you are upset and want a secure home. If he won't come to the party, then perhaps you tell him you need it legally formalised asap, because it is important to you and you are not prepared to dicker over his entry rights.
All the best dearie, in a hard situation.
God bless
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Reading everybody's posts triggered something in my mind related to Boundaries that I'd like to share.
In a lot of ways, the purpose of the Boundary is not to threaten or even "protect" yourself. The purpose of practicing Boundary setting and communication, to me, is to establish YOUR OWN boundaries, and communicate them the best you can, without complaining or attacking the other person, in order to honor your own self and your own feelings. Because if you do not honor yourself and your feelings, no one else will, husband (or wife) or not.
In a lot of ways, the purpose of the Boundary is not to threaten or even "protect" yourself. The purpose of practicing Boundary setting and communication, to me, is to establish YOUR OWN boundaries, and communicate them the best you can, without complaining or attacking the other person, in order to honor your own self and your own feelings. Because if you do not honor yourself and your feelings, no one else will, husband (or wife) or not.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Merced, CA
Posts: 77
Hello Cowgirl!
You've had excellent advice from other posters, so I won't contribute to their messages, as I think they've said it all.
However, one comment you made stand out as a red flag. And that is about your about to be ex's behavior. While you say he has not been violent, he has IN FACT been violent. Be careful around this guy, because a man who has yelled and punched a hole in a wall is a man who is very much capable of ramping up that violence. A classic course of an abuser is one in which yelling and other displays of temper eventually morph into physical attacks, first against inanimate objects (throwing of objects, breaking of objects, etc) and THEN to animate objects (e.g. human beings).
I'm sorry that you are involved in this painful situation, and feel you are on the right track. It is clear from your post that you are the strong, capable partner, where he is the weaker, less capable partner. This fact alone could make you the target of violence from this man, because you have not only been his financial support, but you are likely to have become central to his life, his self-esteem. Certainly you appear to have acted as his anchor against the vicissitudes of his own affliction and it's consequences. You may in fact be viewed by him as a parent, in addition to a spouse.
Hopefully, your guy will find another woman who will take care of him. This is likely to be your best ticket to disengagement from him.
I hope the best for you and your kids.
Electa
You've had excellent advice from other posters, so I won't contribute to their messages, as I think they've said it all.
However, one comment you made stand out as a red flag. And that is about your about to be ex's behavior. While you say he has not been violent, he has IN FACT been violent. Be careful around this guy, because a man who has yelled and punched a hole in a wall is a man who is very much capable of ramping up that violence. A classic course of an abuser is one in which yelling and other displays of temper eventually morph into physical attacks, first against inanimate objects (throwing of objects, breaking of objects, etc) and THEN to animate objects (e.g. human beings).
I'm sorry that you are involved in this painful situation, and feel you are on the right track. It is clear from your post that you are the strong, capable partner, where he is the weaker, less capable partner. This fact alone could make you the target of violence from this man, because you have not only been his financial support, but you are likely to have become central to his life, his self-esteem. Certainly you appear to have acted as his anchor against the vicissitudes of his own affliction and it's consequences. You may in fact be viewed by him as a parent, in addition to a spouse.
Hopefully, your guy will find another woman who will take care of him. This is likely to be your best ticket to disengagement from him.
I hope the best for you and your kids.
Electa
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
Do not change those locks or use it as a boundary until you have checked with an attorney. I know you said his name is on the mortgage,even though you are the one paying it, but more importantly is his name on The Deed filed at the County Offices?
And yes, he has already shown you he can be violent. Punching a hole in the wall is usually a very good indication of said violence and it can escalate at the snap of a finger.
You have obviously already set some boundaries as he is out of the house and living in an apartment. You may also want to discuss this with a counselor, therapist, and/or an Al-Anon sponsor who is more familiar with the dynamics of your personal situation.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
And yes, he has already shown you he can be violent. Punching a hole in the wall is usually a very good indication of said violence and it can escalate at the snap of a finger.
You have obviously already set some boundaries as he is out of the house and living in an apartment. You may also want to discuss this with a counselor, therapist, and/or an Al-Anon sponsor who is more familiar with the dynamics of your personal situation.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: In the barn
Posts: 324
Well, to update - he just called me at work and asked if I had a few minutes to discuss it. Since I'm in a private office I said that was OK...and he apologized for being resistant to it. He was crying a little, he said he just felt horrible because he was a stranger in his own house and he was having a hard time with that. I didn't respond - I wanted to let him talk about whatever he wanted to say but I also wanted time to think about my response. I finally said after he mentioned a few other things about how he is feeling that I hope he has someplace he can get support and can talk about how he is feeling. I said I was sorry he was having a hard time.
He then mentioned that he is having issues with money, and he may have to give up his car because he can't afford it. I just didn't know what to say to that...I again apologized that he is having a hard time but didn't offer anything. We talked a little about some issues our daughter is having and then ended the call.
Now I'm sitting here feeling immobilized by worrying about him - the codie in me is being pulled by his sob story, I am typing here to keep myself from picking up the phone, calling his parents, making sure someone can help keep him afloat...Its been MY job for the last 11 years to keep him afloat and its one of the other things that ate away our marriage. He suffers, I suffer for him and try to fix it. I need to make myself not fix it. I guess the pain I feel right now is just something I have to go through on my way to getting better. I know its just a feeling and a feeling will not kill me. I just have to wait it out without acting on the unhealthy impulses the feeling generates in me.
Thanks for being here guys and giving me a place to do this work.
He then mentioned that he is having issues with money, and he may have to give up his car because he can't afford it. I just didn't know what to say to that...I again apologized that he is having a hard time but didn't offer anything. We talked a little about some issues our daughter is having and then ended the call.
Now I'm sitting here feeling immobilized by worrying about him - the codie in me is being pulled by his sob story, I am typing here to keep myself from picking up the phone, calling his parents, making sure someone can help keep him afloat...Its been MY job for the last 11 years to keep him afloat and its one of the other things that ate away our marriage. He suffers, I suffer for him and try to fix it. I need to make myself not fix it. I guess the pain I feel right now is just something I have to go through on my way to getting better. I know its just a feeling and a feeling will not kill me. I just have to wait it out without acting on the unhealthy impulses the feeling generates in me.
Thanks for being here guys and giving me a place to do this work.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: In the barn
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by Electa
Hello Cowgirl!
I'm sorry that you are involved in this painful situation, and feel you are on the right track. It is clear from your post that you are the strong, capable partner, where he is the weaker, less capable partner. This fact alone could make you the target of violence from this man, because you have not only been his financial support, but you are likely to have become central to his life, his self-esteem.
I'm sorry that you are involved in this painful situation, and feel you are on the right track. It is clear from your post that you are the strong, capable partner, where he is the weaker, less capable partner. This fact alone could make you the target of violence from this man, because you have not only been his financial support, but you are likely to have become central to his life, his self-esteem.
Originally Posted by Electa
Certainly you appear to have acted as his anchor against the vicissitudes of his own affliction and it's consequences.
Originally Posted by Electa
Hopefully, your guy will find another woman who will take care of him. This is likely to be your best ticket to disengagement from him.
peaceful seabird
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: floating
Posts: 4,822
[QUOTE=Cowgirl1265;2353422
He then mentioned that he is having issues with money, and he may have to give up his car because he can't afford it. I just didn't know what to say to that...I again apologized that he is having a hard time but didn't offer anything. We talked a little about some issues our daughter is having and then ended the call.
Now I'm sitting here feeling immobilized by worrying about him - the codie in me is being pulled by his sob story, I am typing here to keep myself from picking up the phone, calling his parents, making sure someone can help keep him afloat...Its been MY job for the last 11 years to keep him afloat and its one of the other things that ate away our marriage. He suffers, I suffer for him and try to fix it. I need to make myself not fix it. I guess the pain I feel right now is just something I have to go through on my way to getting better. I know its just a feeling and a feeling will not kill me. I just have to wait it out without acting on the unhealthy impulses the feeling generates in me.
Thanks for being here guys and giving me a place to do this work.[/QUOTE]
5. Helplessness and Neediness of Relationship Partners
Maybe you get hooked by the neediness and helplessness of your relationship partners. You find yourself hooked when your partners get into self-pity, "poor me" and "how tough life has been." You find yourself weak when your relationship partners demonstrates an inability to solve personal problems. You find yourself wanting to teach and instruct, when your relationship partners demonstrate or admit ignorance of how to solve problems. You find yourself hooked by verbal and non-verbal cues which cry out to you to "help" your relationship partners even though your partners have the competence to solve the problem on their own. You find yourself feeling warmth, caring and nurturing feelings which help you tear down any shred of boundaries you once had. These sad, weak, distraught, lost, confused and befuddled waifs are so needy that you lose all concept of space and time as you begin to give and give and give. It feels so good. The rational message needed to establish healthy boundaries from this hook is: "No one is helpless without first learning the advantages of being helpless. Helplessness is a learned behavior which is used to manipulate me to give of my resources, energy, time, effort and money to fix. I am a good person if I do not try to fix and take care of my relationship partners when my partners are acting helpless. I cannot establish healthy intimate relationships with my relationship partners if I am trying to fix or take care of them all of the time. I need to put more energy into fixing and taking care of myself if I find myself being hooked by my relationship partners' helplessness."
From the sticky post About Recovery, under Hooks that keep you in boundaryless relationships.
He then mentioned that he is having issues with money, and he may have to give up his car because he can't afford it. I just didn't know what to say to that...I again apologized that he is having a hard time but didn't offer anything. We talked a little about some issues our daughter is having and then ended the call.
Now I'm sitting here feeling immobilized by worrying about him - the codie in me is being pulled by his sob story, I am typing here to keep myself from picking up the phone, calling his parents, making sure someone can help keep him afloat...Its been MY job for the last 11 years to keep him afloat and its one of the other things that ate away our marriage. He suffers, I suffer for him and try to fix it. I need to make myself not fix it. I guess the pain I feel right now is just something I have to go through on my way to getting better. I know its just a feeling and a feeling will not kill me. I just have to wait it out without acting on the unhealthy impulses the feeling generates in me.
Thanks for being here guys and giving me a place to do this work.
[/QUOTE]5. Helplessness and Neediness of Relationship Partners
Maybe you get hooked by the neediness and helplessness of your relationship partners. You find yourself hooked when your partners get into self-pity, "poor me" and "how tough life has been." You find yourself weak when your relationship partners demonstrates an inability to solve personal problems. You find yourself wanting to teach and instruct, when your relationship partners demonstrate or admit ignorance of how to solve problems. You find yourself hooked by verbal and non-verbal cues which cry out to you to "help" your relationship partners even though your partners have the competence to solve the problem on their own. You find yourself feeling warmth, caring and nurturing feelings which help you tear down any shred of boundaries you once had. These sad, weak, distraught, lost, confused and befuddled waifs are so needy that you lose all concept of space and time as you begin to give and give and give. It feels so good. The rational message needed to establish healthy boundaries from this hook is: "No one is helpless without first learning the advantages of being helpless. Helplessness is a learned behavior which is used to manipulate me to give of my resources, energy, time, effort and money to fix. I am a good person if I do not try to fix and take care of my relationship partners when my partners are acting helpless. I cannot establish healthy intimate relationships with my relationship partners if I am trying to fix or take care of them all of the time. I need to put more energy into fixing and taking care of myself if I find myself being hooked by my relationship partners' helplessness."
From the sticky post About Recovery, under Hooks that keep you in boundaryless relationships.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Helplessness and Neediness of Relationship Partners
A shorter version, and the BEST thing anyone ever said to me after I tried to help him: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
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