Electa

Hello my forum friends:

I think our daughter is using some substance in addition to alcohol (to which she herself readily admits) Her father and I know she drinks excessively (to which she would NOT admit) but I personally think she's also addicted to some (don't know what) illegal substance. Why do I think that? Because she:

.Is going nowhere with her life. No focus, no goals. No initiative. Is current doing little more than holding down a part time job and "couch surfing" at a rich friend's apartment.

.Is always broke and running to friends or family to bail her out of a never ending succession of financial crises brought on by financial mismanagement.

.Seems to have "aged in reverse" The older she becomes chronologically, the younger she acts.

.Is very dependent on others to give her "gifts", to take her places, treat her to restaurant meals, even to give her a place to live with no rent.

.Is very attached to a close community of "friends" who use alcohol and drugs.

I know all the above are stereotypical signs of someone who is dependent on or addicted to a drug and/or drugs.

But, I find myself wanting to go further and find out just WHAT is on her buffet table of use.

Should I do this? And, if I do this, can I trust my informant?

My "informant" is a former room-mate of my daughter's who is now living in another place, and who parted acrimoniously with my daughter several months ago. She (let's call her Amy) called a mutual friend to say that our daughter was "really using a lot of drugs", this friend called us, her parents, and of course, when we confronted our daughter over this report, our daughter replied that Amy just had it in for her and was trying to stir up trouble.

At the time, our daughter's explanation seemed logical. Amy WAS mad at our daughter and WOULD logically be trying to stir up trouble. And, in addition, Amy herself is a pretty dysfunction, pot-smoking kid her own self.

But, something tells me, that as discreditable an informant as Amy might be, there is probably some truth, and maybe the whole truth, to her accusation. After all, our daughter's friends are not likely to be telling us about her drug use.

What are your thoughts out there? Whether you could see yourself in the positions of any one of us: our daughter, our daughter's roommate Amy, or me and my husband?

I suspect some reader will see this and have something to say to me!

Still Waters

What is the motivation to know exactly what she's taking? She's an adult, you can't control her. I don't see where your knowledge of "what it is" will help you or your husband get on with your lives.

If and when it comes time, and she is ready for help, it still doesn't really matter (to you) what she's on.

Electa

Hello Still Waters:

I suspected I would get this response, because part of my brain (that part that's working) tells me what you have said. What good will it do me to know just what she is using? I guess my only rebuttal would be that if I learn she is on something truly dangerous, and likely to kill her, then I would try to arrange an "intervention". But, I've learned that "interventions" aren't likely to be successful if the addict isn't wanting to change.

And, of course, it is clear as the nose on my face that she doesn't want to change.

What I do find hopeful is that she, every now and then, but on a regular basis, wants to talk to us and will phone up whichever parent she is feeling most partial to at the moment (she is an only child). So, we know we must keep the lines of communication open, even as I, personally, would rather not talk to her, or hear from her. But, with my new tools, LEARNED HERE, I am able to talk with her with ever decreasing distress.

Electa

Bernadette

Hi Electa---
Aaaaaaaaaaaaah- the old "need to know" question!!!

It can really become an obsession, what are they drinking/swallowing/injecting/smoking? How much? How often? Did they just lie to me? I need to know!!!

I hope more folks will chime in with ES&H about this - because I wonder if you just have to go through a certain amount of this kind of thinking before you realize how futile it is and how much it damages you and in fact how much it enables the A....

I can tell you from experience that the best indicator of where any person is at in their mental health is just behavior. I made the greatest progress on myself when I started believing behavior and having boundaries in place that I could rely on to protect myself.

I needed to STOP enabling my alcoholic brothers 100% (doing anything for them that an adult can and should do for themselves) and I needed to get it through my thick skull just where my side of the street ended and their side of the street began AND learn how to keep my side clean and hands off of their side!!

AlAnon helped me with this, in fact I don't know how I would have figured this stuff out without AlAnon and books like Codependent No More.

So I'll ask you what people who understood my obsession used to ask me:
Why do you need to know?
What difference will it make?
What could you better do today with that energy you are devoting to this issue that would benefit YOU?

It is so hard and unnatural at first....but like any good habit it has to be practiced again and again!

peace,
b

Electa

Bernadette:

You're great. Told me off, and I needed to hear that! My husband and I both read your reply and we both got a chuckle out of it.

Thanks for helping me stay on track and not derail into the old "need to know" gravel by the side of the track. Gravel that would abrade my skin and do me no good.

Electa

smacked

I think it will be most helpful to you to focus on yourself.. as nothing you do can change her or control her addiction if there is one.

If you had all the hard facts about what drugs she was doing, when, how much, why etc.. what would that do for you? For her?

She will drink/use/live how she wants until she's decided otherwise. I know I did..

Still Waters

I would assume that any illegal substance she is ingesting is dangerous. There still isn't a thing you can do about it. Powerlessness isn't comfortable, and I suspect that it's 1000x more so for you as a parent.

Bernadette

Oh-- Electa P.S.-- a phrase that helps me to this day to stay focused on people's behavior and not my suspicions is:

"More will be revealed."

And it always is. Not in response to my obsessing, but revealed just as and when and how it should be...so I can let go and trust the universe's timetable/wisdom.

I used to have to repeat this over and over in my mind when I was first changing my well-trained alcoholic family brain. I found it very calming too actually....sort of invites you to say it, take a deep breath, and just let it gooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!

Good luck--
b

Electa

Thank you, "Smacked".

As someone who has been in my daughter's position, I thank you so much for your observations. This is what I was looking for; the authentic voices of folks from all sides of the equation.

And these voices are all telling me the same thing: Which is to NOT GO THERE.

I just needed a few reminders, like yours, that I was considering stumbling down a dumb path indeed.

Electa

Electa

Hello Still Waters:

Yes, it is uncomfortable, but I try not to think about it too much. I find myself wanting to say to her, when she calls me, to not get in touch with me again until she grows up, and cleans up, but I know that is to abrogate the one role I have left as a parent, which is to remain in touch with her and let her know I love her and want the best for her. And also to be careful to not fall into her web of self-deception.

Electa

Still Waters

I have a terrible time separating the addiction from the addict. In my situation, many of that things that happened are more in the "he's just a nasty individual" realm rather than the "he's an alcoholic" realm. I think, anyway. Or maybe I'm just not ready to blame the alcohol for it all, and let him off the hook for terrible behavior.

Is there a bit of you that is still hoping or thinking that if you say this to her, it will cause her to clean up her act? Is it a control thing or is it that you simply don't want to deal with being an audience for her gradual destruction? I can certainly understand both feelings.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with distancing yourself from her self imposed madness.

Learn2Live

Electa, I have been in all three positions (although I am a woman and have NEVER been a husband :O)

And I agree with everything everyone has responded on this thread. Think long and deep before opening this can of worms for yourself. Because once you do, it can morph into a very large black hole from which it is very hard to climb out of.

If your daughter has reached the age of majority, she is an adult and she is 100% responsible for herself. She obviously has no problems with her own life (sounds to me like she's enjoying herself) and until she doesn't want that life anymore, there's nothing ANYONE can do about it. Don't assume she can't take care of herself, especially since she's your only child. To assume another adult is incapable of taking care of him or herself is disrespectful. As I've been told by an adult who I assumed would not take care of himself: Mind your own damn business.

In the meantime, live the life you have always wanted. Don't fall into the judgment trap, the blame and complain trap, the panic trap, the "should" trap, or the fix-it trap. They are very unhealthy traps and suck up 99.9% of your life and your energy.

Peace.

Electa

Bernadette:

Oh my gosh! You are soooooooo right! YES! As I look back on the past three or four years, more and more WAS revealed to us, quite without our nosing into her life. In fact, our daughter herself reveals stuff to us whether by intention or not.

Sometimes I want to ask her "Are you ******** now as a result of your fall down the flight of stairs and your head injury?" because she will say, or do things that are SOOO
STUPID and then tells us about these things in the mindless, credulous way that a young child (say kindergarten age) might tell a teacher, a parent, or any adult.

Fortunately, I've curbed my tongue and have not commented on her apparent loss of intelligence although my husband, who was never one for subtlety, has on more than one occasion told her to "pull her head out of her ____!.

But back to your words of wisdom. I'll "paste" that quote "more will be revealed" into my brain today, and stop my foolish obsession with "finding out". Whenever I find myself wanting to "find out", I will tell myself "more will be revealed".

Psychologists and behaviorists talk of developing "replacement" behaviors (and thoughts) as a means of controlling or reducing negative/unproductive/undesirable behaviors. As a psychologist, I'm very familiar with these contemporary approach to counseling and to behavior management, although, the emotionally over-engaged parent in me seemed to forgotten this well recognized strategy. And you have given me the perfect replacement thought for the one I was engaging in.

You are a gem!

Electa

Learn2Live

For yourselves: Detach.
For your daughter: Stop reacting.
For both of you: Go to Al-Anon.

atalose

Electa and husband,

Where you guys are at is what I call “Crazyville” when the frustration and emotional roller coater ride the alcoholics and addicts put us on we often end up in “Crazyville” with our thinking as dysfunctional as the alcoholic or addicts.

Crazyville would bring a person to think that getting an “informant especially an informant who is pretty dysfunctional ” and who is also a KNOWN DRUG USER to spy on another drug user to find out “exactly” what drugs and how much this other person is consuming. Crazyville, crazyville crazyville because none of that matters as long as she wants to keep drinking/using.

I would strongly suggest you and your husband get active with al-anon or nar-anon and try your best to stay out of Crazyville believe me I know how hard that is, how frustrating you feel and grabbing at any thought or rope for hope.

What do they always tell us on an airplane to FIRST put on our oxygen mask before helping a child with theirs……………………..so WE are safe/healthy to assist them if they need it. Same here, al-anon will help you both learn how FIRST help yourselves so you are more prepared to assist your daughter if she asks for your help. Healthy help!!!

Electa

Hello Learn to Live:

Can you elaborate what you mean about to our daughter to "stop reacting"? I'm not sure what you are getting to.

My own thoughts about our daughter is that I believe she is trying to provoke and outrage us. If she isn't, then she managed to do so by dint of the scrapes she gets herself into and then likes to "share" with us. She even will say "I know you are uncomfortable with.." and the like.

She's an only child, who has always enjoyed lots of attention from both of us, and never had to share attention. I suspect she's still not weaned off the desire to get this from us, even if it is in a negative way.

Electa

aboutdone

Electa I truly feel for you. I do. I can not imagine yet what it is like to deal with addiction with your child, your only child at that.

As I read thru the other responses, I think it is all good advice.

You mentioned the need to know based on the possibility of it being a "dangerous" drug of choice.

Brutal honesty, which you already know, is it doesn't matter. Her chemical makeup may allow her to use one drug with no apparent problems, and try another only once, and that may be the end of it. I don't think there is a clear definition of "dangerous" because all addicts who abuse substances, if they do not eventually get help, will more than likely pass away directly or indirectly from their addictions.

You also mentioned the possibility of telling her not to call until she gets clean and sober. I think that is something you will have to be comfortable with. I feel that boundary is absolutely acceptable to set, if you are willing to stand behind it.

I recently set that boundary with my grief stricken mother. I realize it is not the same, however it does have some parallels. My father passed away almost 2 years ago, and my mother has fallen into a huge pity party hole. She is addicted to her grief, refuses to get help, refuses to take any anti depressants, and does the most off the wall things and uses the fact that her husband passed away as an excuse.

I finally told her on the phone after hearing her threat of never ending suicide that I was done with it. I told her I love her dearly, but realize I am completely powerless in her battle. I can't imagine what she goes thru on a daily basis, nor am I qualified to deal with her issues. I told her if she wants to continue in this lifestyle of hers, then I don't want a part of it. When she is ready to change, and seek professional help, I will go with her, and help her in anyway that I can. Until then do not call me, do not refer to my children as devil spawn, and do not think for one minute I will tolerate an ounce of this crap anymore. I haven't heard from her in over a month. I probably won't. I am ok with that.

My days used to start out with her calling me, crying, and threatening how she just wanted to get it over with, EVERYDAY. My whole day would suck, I was short fused with my children, I was constantly wrapped in guilt over what if she actually does it this time? Every conversation I had with my AH, siblings, friends was about my Mom. The whole day was just miserable.

Now I talk to my siblings about all of our children, I have real friendships not based on what should I do for my Mom. And I protect my children from my Moms horrible comments. I'm happier, and honestly if she actually does go thru with her threat, it is her choice, and there is nothing I, or anyone else can do to stop her. Sad, but true.

I apologize I didn't mean to hi jack your thread. I just wanted to let you know, that it truly is possible to love some one from a distance, without knowing anything at all about their own personal demons. If you actually could believe the roommate, that just opens a whole new door of worry, guilt, and what ifs, that honestly you have no control over. Instead of dwelling on what is she doing now, you will be dwelling on omg I hope it doesn't kill her.

I feel for you. Just try to "let go, and let God". Replace the time you spend thinking about her, with something good for you. Sometimes the best way to pull someone closer is to let go of them. When she says "I know you may be uncomfortable with this" stop her and say, " then don't tell me", or I'm sorry I have an appt to get to. Do whatever you have to, to stop her "shock and awe" treatment of you. It is just another manipulation tactic. If she can shock you, then she knows she can still manipulate you for whatever she needs at that moment.

Electa

Hi Atalose:

Yep, you're right, I'm in "crazyville" but I am getting outta town, thank goodness. I'm just nearing the outskirts, with the help of members like you. My husband, fortunately, is not and hasn't been in crazyville, although he suffers from the desire, like all dad's have, which is to "instruct" and "fix".

I have to say, I've had lots of suggestions to go to Al-anon. But why would I? I get such good advice and consolation from the folks on this forum, all in the privacy and comfort of my own home. Maybe there is something I'm missing. I know there are groups in my area, but right now I'm so happy with this site, my motivation to search out an Al-anon group is fairly low.

Electa

Learn2Live

Hi Electa. (GOSH, Sorry I talk so much). I've bolded what you might want to stop reacting to in the quotes below. (CAPS for emphasis--I'm not yelling).

1. When she provokes and outrages you, don't show her or tell her she has succeeded. I can't tell you how much damage my own anger, yelling, and screaming has done to someone else's sobriety. I've learned to do my best in being responsible for my own feelings, frustrations, anger, etc by realizing and reminding myself that just because I feel a certain way DOES NOT MEAN I NEED TO SHARE THOSE FEELINGS. The other person did not CAUSE them. No one can MAKE YOU feel or do ANYTHING. Your feelings are YOURS. I deal with mine myself. If I really need to share them, I share with an objective third party. Your loved one can't handle YOUR feelings and emotions anyway--she's having a hard enough time dealing with HER OWN.

2. When she "shares" she is looking for something from you--YOUR REACTION. Don't give it to her. She will use it against either herself or you sooner or later.

3. When she says "I know you are uncomfortable with..." don't acknowledge. Like someone said here on SR just this week, Wait for the question. Don't offer up anything unless asked directly. A very smart man once showed me how to do this. JUST DON'T SAY ANYTHING.

All of this takes a lot of patience, self-discipline, and emotional maturity.

4. My brother was the youngest of 6 and participated in active addiction from age 12 to age 38. Many of the addicts I have known have been the youngest or the only child. I've never done any sociological research in this or anything but I'm willing to bet there is a correlation between birth order and drug use.

The point? If you continue to treat your daughter the same as always, pretending that there is nothing wrong, such as continuing to give her lots of attention, she will interpret this as there is nothing wrong with what she is doing--STATUS QUO--no problem, "my behavior is not causing any problems." Be true to yourselves but work on not reacting.

"But how do I not react but still show her that there is a problem?" You don't show her, you let her find out for herself. (1) Let her take 100% of the responsibility for herself and her own life -- NO EXCUSES. They come up with LOTS of reasons why they need to "borrow" money, need you to buy them a car, need groceries, etc. Just don't do it. (2) When you want to communicate to her that you are disappointed that you do not have the relationship with your daughter that you want, calmly and objectively state the facts about how you feel and why. Keep your feelings and emotions out of it, except to express them in words.

Here are some other things not to react to:
(My guess the intent is there but its more subconscious than conscious.)

(This will just give her fodder for justifying her continuing to act out.)

Quote:

my husband, who was never one for subtlety, has on more than one occasion told her to "pull her head out of her ____!.

Again, more fodder to use for blaming and rationalizing. They store this stuff up in their heads.

I just want to say also that the folks here are advising you based on our own experiences. We have learned we have to let go and take care of our own selves instead of obsessing about the alcoholic or addict in our lives. This is not to say that you SHOULD do anything we are advising. Everyone has to decide for themselves. We cannot tell the future and as you know, it sounds like your daughter is living a very dangerous life. We all have to accept that we may lose them to any of many ills very abruptly. You have to make your own decisions about this, based on your own needs.

Take care of yourselves.

Electa

Hello About Done:

Thanks for your suggestions. You and my other forum correspondents are helping me immensely and I really needed to hear some reassurance that our daughter is (as I viscerally suspected) trying the "shock and awe" treatment, and what her motivations might be for this.

Regarding your mother and your relations with her, don't apologize for an instant about discussing her and your frustrations in your response. There ARE similar dynamics going on (i.e. the effort to manipulate) between you and your mother and me and my daughter. On this situation I've become quite experienced, due to the unfortunate fact for my mother and our family, that she has a mental illness (or condition) that has negatively affected my whole family. She has a personality disorder and/or a major mental illness (borderline personality/bipolar/histrionic) have all been applied to her. My whole life has been affected by my mother's illness or condition, and I can fairly say that the hell my father, I and my sister have gone through with her is similar to what you are describing with your mother, albeit my mother's behavior went beyond the complaining and manipulation and into SERIOUS territory that ended up with my sister and I having to petition the court to become her conservators.

I hope you mother will respond to your boundaries. My mother (who has battled depression throughout her life) also refused to take anti-depressants, and it enraged me that she was so oppositional to the idea, but then, like with your mother, I suspect part of the motivation for NOT taking anti-depressants is the love of manipulation and self-pity that they get into.

I got lucky with my mother, finally. She is in an assisted living facility, and relies on the staff there to give her her medications for a host of medical conditions she has. With the help of her doctors, and her care-givers, I was able to sneak in an anti-depressant, "Zoloft" in her case, to her daily meds. Since she's been on this drug, the change in her has been almost miraculous. She is much more cooperative, friendly, thoughtful, appreciative, kind, and considerate. I don't need to say that such behaviors are to her benefit, as she is relying on caregivers to treat her well, and to the extent that she now treats THEM well, she can expect more compassion and politeness and patience from THEM.

But, your mother's personality, her penchant for manipulation, self-pity, putting guilt trips on her family, is so, so familiar.

It sounds like you've extricated yourself from her manipulations, but beware, that guilt is a powerful emotion than can easily entrap a person. You may need a refresher from time to time to give you the strength to stick to your guns and not allow your mother to manipulate you. This dynamic has been going on a long, long, time, and she will be contacting you again.

You might want to look at "shaping" her behavior, which would allow you to step back a bit and look at the dynamic between the two of you in a more detached manner. This would consist of your telling her firmly that you are uncomfortable with certain statements she is making, (when she makes these statements) and will talk to her later when she's feeling better, then hang up. This way you could send her the message that you are available to talk with her and be in her life, but only when she does not abuse you with her tales of woe. Good knows I heard those tales of woe all my life, always tried to help me mother with suggestions, advice, even condolences. But, guess what? The tales of woe were never ending. Once I figured out there was nothing I could do to help her, nothing I could say, it helped immensely, and I was able to respond to her with appropriate comments like "too bad you feel this way", and then move on to other subjects, or find some reason to terminate the conversation or the visit.

I suspect your mother most likely has a chronic depression, and WOULD BE helped by an anti-depressant. But it's her choice right now to refuse to take steps to help herself, to wallow in self-pity and there is nothing you can do other than stay away and not be forced to watch her wallow.

Be ready for her when she calls! Reinforce her for any positive statements she makes, but cut her off when she makes negative statements or tries manipulation. Behavior such as hers is learned over many, many years, and it takes a long time to change it.

Good luck to you.

Electa