Can shame be helpful?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 664
Can shame be helpful?
One of the reasons I've been able to stay sober is because I know how ashamed I'll be after I drink and how ashamed I felt the last time I relapsed. Is this shame healthy or could it possibly lead me to relapse again?
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,384
I never found shame helpful - for me it caused me to drink more - but I was the kind of drunk who didn't want to face anything uncomfortable. I drank to avoid shame.
I daresay you could find more positive reasons not to drink - and I hope you will....but if it works for you, Clay?....
D
I daresay you could find more positive reasons not to drink - and I hope you will....but if it works for you, Clay?....
D
mergirl
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Paradise
Posts: 4,161
I was deeply ashamed of myself the day I quit drinking. Had I not done such a shameful thing, I would not be here. That being said, in order to begin recovering from the pain I was in and the mess I was, I had to forgive myself.
As far as a reason not to pick up again, not wanting to go back to that dark place is surely a factor.
As far as a reason not to pick up again, not wanting to go back to that dark place is surely a factor.
IO Storm
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 18,436
Hi Clay.
Like Dee, I drank to avoid shame..and escape from it. Because of guilt. They do go
together..I was ashamed, and felt guilty. So I drank again...the vicious cycle.
In your mind...focusing on "shame"...a negative concept, hey...it is working for
you so far. But, down the road...be careful about being negative about yourself
in your thought life.
How about some positive reinforcement?
I am in AA..and it works for me. But just do it...however you do it.
We'll cheer you on here at SR!
Best wishes for your recovery and congrats on your sobriety.
Blessings
Like Dee, I drank to avoid shame..and escape from it. Because of guilt. They do go
together..I was ashamed, and felt guilty. So I drank again...the vicious cycle.
In your mind...focusing on "shame"...a negative concept, hey...it is working for
you so far. But, down the road...be careful about being negative about yourself
in your thought life.
How about some positive reinforcement?
I am in AA..and it works for me. But just do it...however you do it.
We'll cheer you on here at SR!
Best wishes for your recovery and congrats on your sobriety.
Blessings
Guest
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 111
cts,
congratulations! keep it up. i have been asking similar questions since being here, and the primary piece of advice has been "one day at a time". i still wonder, but then i had to ask myself this: am i trying to find out what might make me relapse in the future so i can understand myself better and avoid the situation, or am i carefull calculating the moment when i can relapse. my subconscious is a *******. regardless, the questions are important for deep self-work, but regurgitating the words of other amazing sr posters, stay sober today.
that is a good point firehazard, but as cubile 75 stated, there is shame and toxic shame. i guess i would distinguish between feeling ashamed for a wrong doing and taking responsibility for that (shame), and the deep woundedness that can occure in the vastness of our own being so that all our vital energy is sucked inward to protect with full force the sensitive and tender, inner child (toxic shame). when this occures, one isn't drinking as an act of strength and self-empowerment, but rather out of an inability to even do so, were that the individuals true desire. any time "toxic shame" exists in our lives, we are a slave to something, even if we're not drinking...for instance whatever entity, institution, person, creed, etc... instilling toxic shame. in my opinion, and correct me if i'm wrong firehazard, the shame you speak of is more moral in nature such as an understanding of consequence, recognition of the action, regret of the action, and a decision to make a future change; however, once that decision is made, the shame is released and isn't allowed to burrow it's way to our generative cores, thereby becoming a shame that infects the spirit. we may keep it it quietly by in our sobriety tool kit, but we are to be very careful with it since shame can in fact be a spiritual nuke. sorry sorry. just my ramblings. i like this topic. i've been dealing with alot of shame issues.
congratulations! keep it up. i have been asking similar questions since being here, and the primary piece of advice has been "one day at a time". i still wonder, but then i had to ask myself this: am i trying to find out what might make me relapse in the future so i can understand myself better and avoid the situation, or am i carefull calculating the moment when i can relapse. my subconscious is a *******. regardless, the questions are important for deep self-work, but regurgitating the words of other amazing sr posters, stay sober today.
that is a good point firehazard, but as cubile 75 stated, there is shame and toxic shame. i guess i would distinguish between feeling ashamed for a wrong doing and taking responsibility for that (shame), and the deep woundedness that can occure in the vastness of our own being so that all our vital energy is sucked inward to protect with full force the sensitive and tender, inner child (toxic shame). when this occures, one isn't drinking as an act of strength and self-empowerment, but rather out of an inability to even do so, were that the individuals true desire. any time "toxic shame" exists in our lives, we are a slave to something, even if we're not drinking...for instance whatever entity, institution, person, creed, etc... instilling toxic shame. in my opinion, and correct me if i'm wrong firehazard, the shame you speak of is more moral in nature such as an understanding of consequence, recognition of the action, regret of the action, and a decision to make a future change; however, once that decision is made, the shame is released and isn't allowed to burrow it's way to our generative cores, thereby becoming a shame that infects the spirit. we may keep it it quietly by in our sobriety tool kit, but we are to be very careful with it since shame can in fact be a spiritual nuke. sorry sorry. just my ramblings. i like this topic. i've been dealing with alot of shame issues.
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Clay I am like Dee on this one, I drank shame away for many years, if I had used shame as a means of staying sober I doubt I would have stayed sober long and I know myself well enough to know that if I relapsed after using shame to stay sober I would be drinking a ton to rid myself of the shame.
The steps of AA and the fellowship have given me a method to deal with the shame I used to have and the guilt as well. I have forgiven myself as well as others who have wronged me, a huge part of this has been, first a personal inventory where I learned a great deal about myself as a person & those I had harmed among many other things. I made amends where I could to clean my side of the street to rid myself of the guilt. My long term amends to family, friends, and myself is staying sober and being the best man I can be, being of maximum service to my fellow man.
I use the gratitude I have about being sober and a better person who helps others as my reasons for staying sober. I feel good about the person I have become due to my continued sobriety and applying the steps of AA to all areas of my life.
Now this is just my opinion, but to me shame is a very negative thing and I do not see how using a negative for something can produce long term posotive results.
I live a good posotive life today which allows me to live shame and guilt free, why hold onto to shame?
The steps of AA and the fellowship have given me a method to deal with the shame I used to have and the guilt as well. I have forgiven myself as well as others who have wronged me, a huge part of this has been, first a personal inventory where I learned a great deal about myself as a person & those I had harmed among many other things. I made amends where I could to clean my side of the street to rid myself of the guilt. My long term amends to family, friends, and myself is staying sober and being the best man I can be, being of maximum service to my fellow man.
I use the gratitude I have about being sober and a better person who helps others as my reasons for staying sober. I feel good about the person I have become due to my continued sobriety and applying the steps of AA to all areas of my life.
Now this is just my opinion, but to me shame is a very negative thing and I do not see how using a negative for something can produce long term posotive results.
I live a good posotive life today which allows me to live shame and guilt free, why hold onto to shame?
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: SE and then South some more
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Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe 
One of the reasons I've been able to stay sober is because I know how ashamed I'll be after I drink and how ashamed I felt the last time I relapsed. Is this shame healthy or could it possibly lead me to relapse again?
Whatever keeps you sober, if that's knowing how you're going to feel? Being able to see that isn't a bad thing. It is one of the many reasons why I stay sober, not the main reason but I certainly don't want to pick up and have to face it. I have ENOUGH that I deal with on a daily basis in my life without doing that to myself. So no picking up.
As for relapsing, a relapse starts way before you pick up. Starting to question yourself, "am I really that bad?" "would one be so wrong?" "I can start over, right?"
Maybe even looking for a reason to pick up......like shame???? Making it "ok" in your head.
Early sobriety comes with TONS OF EMOTIONAL stuff but it gets easier to deal with the longer you work through it.
I say hold on!!!!! Keep posting and asking questions.
One more thing to add Clay, I have been one hell of an angry person
with some of the stuff that I've been through the last couple of months and no matter how angry I get, how hurt, depressed, whatever.......NO MATTER WHAT.......DRINKING is NOT AN OPTION!!!!! Not for me. The only thing that is going to make me pick up today is me.Glad to see you over here.
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Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe
One of the reasons I've been able to stay sober is because I know how ashamed I'll be after I drink and how ashamed I felt the last time I relapsed. Is this shame healthy or could it possibly lead me to relapse again?
There are many, many other reasons as well.
Use them all to stay sober.
I got nothin'
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: My house.
Posts: 4,890
I've been thinking a lot about shame...
...and I think it's okay in moderation.
Being able to feel shame means you have a conscious. It’s what makes us human…the ability to recognize that we screwed up...and how it affects others.
There are times when shame isn’t appropriate at all…I can think of several examples…but I’ll keep this post in regards to using/addiction/recovery.
I am ashamed that I wasted at least six years of my life…but I will not beat myself up over it. All I can do now is move on. It's pointless for me to obsess about the past so I look forward.
It comes down to acceptance about your addiction. I’ll always have addiction to fight…it’s there to stay….but knowing this gives me the advantage. I know I have to stay on top of it.
It’s okay to recognize the shame…and then move on. Take all the energy that you put into any guilty feelings and focus on the positive aspects of your recovery. Every single day is a new day…an opportunity to better oneself.
...and I think it's okay in moderation.
Being able to feel shame means you have a conscious. It’s what makes us human…the ability to recognize that we screwed up...and how it affects others.
There are times when shame isn’t appropriate at all…I can think of several examples…but I’ll keep this post in regards to using/addiction/recovery.
I am ashamed that I wasted at least six years of my life…but I will not beat myself up over it. All I can do now is move on. It's pointless for me to obsess about the past so I look forward.
It comes down to acceptance about your addiction. I’ll always have addiction to fight…it’s there to stay….but knowing this gives me the advantage. I know I have to stay on top of it.
It’s okay to recognize the shame…and then move on. Take all the energy that you put into any guilty feelings and focus on the positive aspects of your recovery. Every single day is a new day…an opportunity to better oneself.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,385
Shame kept me believing that I was an unloveable and worthless person. Shame as I understand it is negative self talk that you can barely notice but keeps you down and out. I believe it was shame that kept me drinking among other things.
The topic of shame is very relative to the individual. Few will experience the same thing or have the same understanding of what it is. We may however have the same ideas of what it can do.
Clay, you posed a great question. And in my own experience I would have to say that using shame as a means to stay sober is not healthy in the long run. We alcoholics dwell on the idea of drinking enough as it is...why add shame to the mix?
Thanks
The topic of shame is very relative to the individual. Few will experience the same thing or have the same understanding of what it is. We may however have the same ideas of what it can do.
Clay, you posed a great question. And in my own experience I would have to say that using shame as a means to stay sober is not healthy in the long run. We alcoholics dwell on the idea of drinking enough as it is...why add shame to the mix?
Thanks
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Originally Posted by brokenhalo
the deep woundedness that can occure in the vastness of our own being so that all our vital energy is sucked inward
I felt like I was a wounded, defective human being that was not worthy to take my place in this world. That's gone now. Perhaps the circumstances surrounding my intervention and rehab set me up for it... but it really sucked and was not helpful in getting me on the path to recovery.
Shame, not toxic shame, may help someone decide to make changes in one's life. But I never had any of that kind until I became sober. That kind of shame is manageable. But the boundaries between these layers of shame can become blurred, IMO. Does one become ashamed of one's self or of their own actions?
Clay, be careful with the shame thing. A recovery program will give you tools, ones with less blunt force than shame. Get to some of those AA meetings, read the big book and fill your toolbox with tools that empower, not disempower, you.
Good thread Clay... Thanx
Mark
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hicktown, PA
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Hey Clay - Great thread. I read this info. about guilt and shame somewhere but can't remember where, so I'll paraphrase and hope that someone else has read it also and can help give the author the credit they are due:
"Guilt is feeling bad about something you have done.
Shame is feeling bad about yourself.
Guilt is innate. It is a natural acknowlegdement of the violation of your values.
Shame is learned. It is losing the ability to distinguish yourself, your inner being, your soul from your actions.
When we experience shame, we cannot operate fully and creatively and worse, we are unable to experience forgiveness. Guilt naturally tells us when we did something wrong to ourselves or others. After the wrong is righted, we can experience forgiveness, and allow the guilt to dissipate.
If shame develops as a result of unresolved guilt, the sufferer gets caught in a vicious cycle that must be broken by allowing himself to forgive himself for his actions, remembering that he is still a worthy soul, and by making amends to anyone he has hurt by his actions. "
As for whether or not shame is healthy and a good way to stay sober, I would say "no" for myself. I have been staying sober by building myself up and bringing myself out of myself and the misery of my drinking, and am getting happy and healthy again. However, that's just what works for me. I'm glad you are sober, Clay, no matter how you do it.
Hope this helps!
Jomey
"Guilt is feeling bad about something you have done.
Shame is feeling bad about yourself.
Guilt is innate. It is a natural acknowlegdement of the violation of your values.
Shame is learned. It is losing the ability to distinguish yourself, your inner being, your soul from your actions.
When we experience shame, we cannot operate fully and creatively and worse, we are unable to experience forgiveness. Guilt naturally tells us when we did something wrong to ourselves or others. After the wrong is righted, we can experience forgiveness, and allow the guilt to dissipate.
If shame develops as a result of unresolved guilt, the sufferer gets caught in a vicious cycle that must be broken by allowing himself to forgive himself for his actions, remembering that he is still a worthy soul, and by making amends to anyone he has hurt by his actions. "
As for whether or not shame is healthy and a good way to stay sober, I would say "no" for myself. I have been staying sober by building myself up and bringing myself out of myself and the misery of my drinking, and am getting happy and healthy again. However, that's just what works for me. I'm glad you are sober, Clay, no matter how you do it.
Hope this helps!
Jomey
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Posts: 2,763
Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe
One of the reasons I've been able to stay sober is because I know how ashamed I'll be after I drink and how ashamed I felt the last time I relapsed. Is this shame healthy or could it possibly lead me to relapse again?
As an active alcoholic, it provided rationalization to drink the pain away. I remember those days when I couldn't get out of work fast enough to go to the bar and drink myself into oblivion.
As a recovering alcoholic, the shame over my drinking was extremely valuable - ego-deflating. I knew that I couldn't control alcohol & I needed help. Also, that shame meant that I recognized what I was doing was wrong.
If I didn't feel that intense shame, why bother trying to recover?
As far as past behaviour goes, we do learn to accept and forgive ourselves. The shame passes. We are human & make mistakes.
I took me some time and work (12 steps) to develop this perspective but today I think it is far better to look at a many positives of a sober life rather than focusing on the negatives of the past.
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
I personally don't do guilt or shame, and find it hard to really "get" -- on a personal, gut level -- how either of those things would be helpful....but, then again, I am not an alcoholic or addict, and I was very, very blessed not to have had to grow up with much dysfunction in my immediate family environment early in my life.
The only thing I've ever "heard" that made any sense whatsoever to me in terms of "using shame as a healing/recovery tool" is post #17 on the thread linked below:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ity-shame.html
Of course, the writer (and his recovery) are both totally amazing, so I'm not sure how "applicable" of an example he is of anything other than the fact that miracles do happen in recovery! But, still, it's good stuff and reading it certainly couldn't hurt anyone.
...and miracles do happen in recovery, so anything is possible!
freya
The only thing I've ever "heard" that made any sense whatsoever to me in terms of "using shame as a healing/recovery tool" is post #17 on the thread linked below:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ity-shame.html
Of course, the writer (and his recovery) are both totally amazing, so I'm not sure how "applicable" of an example he is of anything other than the fact that miracles do happen in recovery! But, still, it's good stuff and reading it certainly couldn't hurt anyone.
...and miracles do happen in recovery, so anything is possible!
freya
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