The Pursuit of Happyness
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The Pursuit of Happyness
I was reading LTD's thread last night after drinking way too much coffee, playing in a chess tournament and bouncing back here in between moves.
I was thinking about the concept of "and THEN I will be happy" or "If only this then that"
I was thinking about denial, and everything I have learned about it, everything I have learned about the alcoholic family model, and I was thinking about how the alcoholic literally couldn't drink themselves to death without denial. I was thinking about my signature, about "pick up the mirror", I was thinking about how Stillwaters was told to stop enabling then got a strong reaction for doing so.
All of the sudden it hit me like a ton of bricks, the alcoholic family dynamic can't exist without denial. I've been like yeah denial blah blah but for some reason it NEVER occurred to me that the alcoholic/codependent unhealthy dynamic can't exist without it.
It literally can't. Like a fish with a bicycle.
Denial is the brains way of coping with a truth that the brain isn't ready to accept. The alcoholic HAS to be in denial to drink like they do. They HAVE to be in denial to commit slow suicide. I think the brains original defense mechanism makes it to where you HAVE to go into denial to watch a loved one commit slow suicide. I think that denial manifests in many forms, and one of them is "and THEN I will be happy" another is "looking outward' for answers as opposed to inward. The "outward focus" IS another form of denial, it IS a way to keep the focus off ourselves, I have read that 100 times, in a 100 different ways, but the dime just dropped.
A "mirror" or "self reflection" is to the alcoholic/codependent dynamic what a cross is to a vampire. They both can't exist in the same space/time. Denial is mandatory to the dynamic, it can't exist without it.
All this stuff I have been reading for years suddenly came into focus with a slightly different meaning. All of the stuff I have been studying about codependency all of the sudden all tied together.
It's like, I can remove the alcoholic and have "peace", but unless I address those tendencies in me, if I want instant trouble and drama, just add another person to kick that stuff into gear, which is 100% guaranteed until/unless I deal with my codie tendencies. If someone is REALLY unhealthy I go off the deep end, if they are moderately healthy, I remain moderately healthy, if they have good boundaries and are healthy, I appear healthy.
That's why I was able to live comfortably "in my own skin" for many years in sobriety by just only allowing healthy people in my life, I addressed the symptom, not the problem. When I went to live with my alcoholic family, and shortly thereafter took up with an alcoholic girlfriend, and shortly thereafter went apesh1t crazy it was because my "disease" of codependency was only in remission, it had never been truly addressed.
The codependent blames the alcoholic, the alcoholic blames the codependent (and everything else), the alcoholic is addicted to alcohol, and the codependent is addicted to the alcoholic. When I removed the alcoholic from "the picture" but didn't address the underlying issues, I was like an alcoholic that was just "dry", just wasn't drinking but hadn't addressed the issues of why I drank.
If I could keep enough "outward drama" going, I wouldn't have to look at myself.
I am having trouble verbalizing this concept but it came to me in a blinding only partially coffee induced flash.
I was thinking about the concept of "and THEN I will be happy" or "If only this then that"
I was thinking about denial, and everything I have learned about it, everything I have learned about the alcoholic family model, and I was thinking about how the alcoholic literally couldn't drink themselves to death without denial. I was thinking about my signature, about "pick up the mirror", I was thinking about how Stillwaters was told to stop enabling then got a strong reaction for doing so.
All of the sudden it hit me like a ton of bricks, the alcoholic family dynamic can't exist without denial. I've been like yeah denial blah blah but for some reason it NEVER occurred to me that the alcoholic/codependent unhealthy dynamic can't exist without it.
It literally can't. Like a fish with a bicycle.
Denial is the brains way of coping with a truth that the brain isn't ready to accept. The alcoholic HAS to be in denial to drink like they do. They HAVE to be in denial to commit slow suicide. I think the brains original defense mechanism makes it to where you HAVE to go into denial to watch a loved one commit slow suicide. I think that denial manifests in many forms, and one of them is "and THEN I will be happy" another is "looking outward' for answers as opposed to inward. The "outward focus" IS another form of denial, it IS a way to keep the focus off ourselves, I have read that 100 times, in a 100 different ways, but the dime just dropped.
A "mirror" or "self reflection" is to the alcoholic/codependent dynamic what a cross is to a vampire. They both can't exist in the same space/time. Denial is mandatory to the dynamic, it can't exist without it.
All this stuff I have been reading for years suddenly came into focus with a slightly different meaning. All of the stuff I have been studying about codependency all of the sudden all tied together.
It's like, I can remove the alcoholic and have "peace", but unless I address those tendencies in me, if I want instant trouble and drama, just add another person to kick that stuff into gear, which is 100% guaranteed until/unless I deal with my codie tendencies. If someone is REALLY unhealthy I go off the deep end, if they are moderately healthy, I remain moderately healthy, if they have good boundaries and are healthy, I appear healthy.
That's why I was able to live comfortably "in my own skin" for many years in sobriety by just only allowing healthy people in my life, I addressed the symptom, not the problem. When I went to live with my alcoholic family, and shortly thereafter took up with an alcoholic girlfriend, and shortly thereafter went apesh1t crazy it was because my "disease" of codependency was only in remission, it had never been truly addressed.
The codependent blames the alcoholic, the alcoholic blames the codependent (and everything else), the alcoholic is addicted to alcohol, and the codependent is addicted to the alcoholic. When I removed the alcoholic from "the picture" but didn't address the underlying issues, I was like an alcoholic that was just "dry", just wasn't drinking but hadn't addressed the issues of why I drank.
If I could keep enough "outward drama" going, I wouldn't have to look at myself.
I am having trouble verbalizing this concept but it came to me in a blinding only partially coffee induced flash.
Last edited by Ago; 06-13-2009 at 09:23 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ago 
That's why I was able to live comfortably "in my own skin" for many years in sobriety by just only allowing healthy people in my life, I addressed the symptom, not the problem. When I went to live with my alcoholic family, and shortly thereafter took up with an alcoholic girlfriend, and shortly thereafter went apesh1t crazy it was because my "disease" of codependency was only in remission, it had never been truly addressed.
It only took me 9 years into my recovery from alcohol/drugs the second time around before the lightbulb came on after another very painful and dyfunctional relationship ended (the ex-fiance walked out on me).
I often went for years in between relationships, but never ever truly addressed my codependency. My pattern was when things would get stressful and I was vulnerable, then my 'sick man magnet' would turn on until I found one.
I can link every dysfunctional relationship I had to a crisis I was going through at the time, whether it was health issues, financial issues, or something with one of my girls.
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I think I get where you're coming from.
When I first discovered this site and read 'Co-dependant No More' it felt as if the scales were falling from my eyes (slowly and certainly painfully). I was coming out of the fog of denial I had been living in for years.
My AH was living with me at the time and the situation, bad as it was, just deteriorated rapidly from then on. At one point he said that my finding Al Anon etc was the worst thing I could have done for our marriage. Coming out of my denial made him take a look at his own fog. He just couldn't do it and left. I became an anathema to him. A repellent to his delusions!
Sometimes, I miss it - usually when I'm feeling overwhelmed. I miss having my rose tinted spectacles on, my wilful ignorance of reality and the delusions I surrounded myself with. I miss the belief that I was loved and treasured, despite the controlling behaviour, the demeaning emotional and verbal abuse. I miss my blind trust even though it lead to utter disaster. I miss those comfortable chains that bound me to him and the familiar rut I lived in. I miss having the scales in front of my eyes but I wouldn't go back to it for anything. Weird huh? I miss something that I never had. Other times I just can't believe I lived like that for so long!
I still have pockets of self deception. I'm not sure if it is possible to live without denial - I think I'd end up stark raving crazy. What do you think?
When I first discovered this site and read 'Co-dependant No More' it felt as if the scales were falling from my eyes (slowly and certainly painfully). I was coming out of the fog of denial I had been living in for years.
My AH was living with me at the time and the situation, bad as it was, just deteriorated rapidly from then on. At one point he said that my finding Al Anon etc was the worst thing I could have done for our marriage. Coming out of my denial made him take a look at his own fog. He just couldn't do it and left. I became an anathema to him. A repellent to his delusions!
Sometimes, I miss it - usually when I'm feeling overwhelmed. I miss having my rose tinted spectacles on, my wilful ignorance of reality and the delusions I surrounded myself with. I miss the belief that I was loved and treasured, despite the controlling behaviour, the demeaning emotional and verbal abuse. I miss my blind trust even though it lead to utter disaster. I miss those comfortable chains that bound me to him and the familiar rut I lived in. I miss having the scales in front of my eyes but I wouldn't go back to it for anything. Weird huh? I miss something that I never had. Other times I just can't believe I lived like that for so long!
I still have pockets of self deception. I'm not sure if it is possible to live without denial - I think I'd end up stark raving crazy. What do you think?
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I'm embarrassed to say it took me 17 years.
You "nailed it" though, when I went into "crisis" my "sick woman" magnet came on and I reproduced my family dynamic and reproduced the crisis in my relationship.
Right after I left my family, and was going into crisis with my XAGF at the time, my friend Larry was like, "Well Andrew, you can't just go into instant health, you and your relationship with this woman is like "sick lite" to help you transition into the world of mental health."
I hate him
Thank you, your response moved me deeply, you "mirrored" exactly what I was trying to say
You "nailed it" though, when I went into "crisis" my "sick woman" magnet came on and I reproduced my family dynamic and reproduced the crisis in my relationship.
Right after I left my family, and was going into crisis with my XAGF at the time, my friend Larry was like, "Well Andrew, you can't just go into instant health, you and your relationship with this woman is like "sick lite" to help you transition into the world of mental health."
I hate him
Thank you, your response moved me deeply, you "mirrored" exactly what I was trying to say
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What about those who don't fall into the codie definition? Maybe married young, neither drank..one started drinking 20 years down the road, etc.?
Denial would still be at the root of the unhealthy behavior cycle.
But denial is a tough one, by definition we deny the denial.
Just throwing some thoughts out there
Denial would still be at the root of the unhealthy behavior cycle.
But denial is a tough one, by definition we deny the denial.
Just throwing some thoughts out there
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I still have pockets of self deception. I'm not sure if it is possible to live without denial - I think I'd end up stark raving crazy. What do you think?
The mind is an amazing device, and denial is actually a "good" thing, it "puts things on hold" until we are ready to "digest" them, it's just that alcoholism is such a long drawn out affair that denial becomes unhealthy and we become addicted to denial.
denial = long term shock I think
I can't tell you the times working on the ambulance, I did Wilderness and Cliff rescues, the patient would be in "denial", utterly lucid, alert and oriented X4 but "denying" the seriousness of the injuries, when I got them to the helicopter or The Ambulance they'd see "help" and "safety" and they would "crash" and pass out because they knew they were safe.
Short term denial is a healthy coping device, anything becomes unhealthy if we do too much of it too long, even diet and exercise can become an addiction.
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Originally Posted by Ago
I'm embarrassed to say it took me 17 years.
Originally Posted by Ago
Right after I left my family, and was going into crisis with my XAGF at the time, my friend Larry was like, "Well Andrew, you can't just go into instant health, you and your relationship with this woman is like "sick lite" to help you transition into the world of mental health."
I hate him
I hate him
I don't do that anymore. I'm much more likely to listen to him these days because I don't enjoy jumping off into the brier patch nearly as much as in the past!
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Denial is automatic and unconscious. We don't choose to deny what the reality is....we actually are incapable of seeing reality.
Usually it takes a crisis of some kind to flatten us and then we have a break in our heads that lets the reality finally find its way in.
This is similar to the crisis the addict experiences at his bottom.
But crisis alone will not break the denial.....there has to be some sort of emotional/spiritual D-Day of reckoning in which God or the Cosmos actually evokes a transformation....otherwise we are still unchanged and will repeat our past mistakes.
This is why when I see people at the ragged edges, when they are in the worst possible emotional state and have lost nearly every shred of hope.....I think "This could be good." For me, getting flattened made me finally grow up, get honest, take responsibility, see people with a new and clearer eye.....and, best of all, it prepared me for the 12th Step......"carried this message to others."
We cannot give away what we don't have. There are plenty of people out there in recovery rooms talking the talk but they still do not really understand what they are talking about.
If you have the D-Day transformation, you finally understand.
Usually it takes a crisis of some kind to flatten us and then we have a break in our heads that lets the reality finally find its way in.
This is similar to the crisis the addict experiences at his bottom.
But crisis alone will not break the denial.....there has to be some sort of emotional/spiritual D-Day of reckoning in which God or the Cosmos actually evokes a transformation....otherwise we are still unchanged and will repeat our past mistakes.
This is why when I see people at the ragged edges, when they are in the worst possible emotional state and have lost nearly every shred of hope.....I think "This could be good." For me, getting flattened made me finally grow up, get honest, take responsibility, see people with a new and clearer eye.....and, best of all, it prepared me for the 12th Step......"carried this message to others."
We cannot give away what we don't have. There are plenty of people out there in recovery rooms talking the talk but they still do not really understand what they are talking about.
If you have the D-Day transformation, you finally understand.
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Originally Posted by Still Waters
What about those who don't fall into the codie definition? Maybe married young, neither drank..one started drinking 20 years down the road, etc.?
Denial would still be at the root of the unhealthy behavior cycle.
But denial is a tough one, by definition we deny the denial.
Just throwing some thoughts out there
Denial would still be at the root of the unhealthy behavior cycle.
But denial is a tough one, by definition we deny the denial.
Just throwing some thoughts out there
Bad things happen to good people, and he didn't 'ask" to become an alcoholic (I'm guessing he was good because you stayed married to him 20 years) any more then you asked for him to become an alcoholic.
The alcoholic as a family illness model states alcoholism affects everyone it comes in contact with.
Your husband had an infectious disease in another words according to that model.
Neither of you may have had any "pre-existing" conditions, such as alcoholic parents, alcoholic modeling etc, you may, you may not, but what's not in question is he "caught" the disease of alcoholism.
"sterilizing" yourself from "pockets of infection' from being involved in a "sick system" with a "sick person" can't be a bad thing surely?
If he "denies" the label of alcoholic, he will never seek help just because he doesn't like the "label" alcoholic" unless he gets so beat into submission he has no way out. Once again, he didn't ask to become an alcoholic, any more then he would have asked to have cancer. It doesn't make him a "bad person" it makes him a "sick person".
If he would have had a form of cancer that was infectious, would you hesitate to seek medical attention? Well, he did, but it was a "mental" illness, and it affected everyone around him.
When I went on "calls" that had mass trauma and mass casualties afterwards we went to "debriefings" I had access to group therapy and a Psychiatrist for as long as I deemed necessary to avoid me getting PTSD (still got it but oh well) but that didn't make me a "sick" person, that made me a person who had been subjected to stress outside the norm and it behooved me to address it in order to NOT get sick(er).
He caught "alcoholism"
studies show alcoholism affects everyone around it.
Doesn't make you a "bad" person, or even a "sick" person per se, it makes you a person that had to deal with stress outside the norm, stresses there is help available for, stress "they" call codependency in order to have a word for it.
That make sense?
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*my example was hypothetical, not my situation
Interesting, I've never thought of it that way. So, codependency can be a reaction to the stress of living in an alcoholic home, rather than always a learned behavior from an alcoholic (or other dysfunction) childhood.
I think codependency can also be part and parcel of ignorance. Ignorance of the disease and the dynamics.
But I do think that the root of the issue when in an unhealthy relationship like we deal with daily here in this forum is denial, codependency comes in 2nd or maybe even 4th. IMHO.
Doesn't make you a "bad" person, or even a "sick" person per se, it makes you a person that had to deal with stress outside the norm, stresses there is help available for, stress "they" call codependency in order to have a word for it.
I think codependency can also be part and parcel of ignorance. Ignorance of the disease and the dynamics.
But I do think that the root of the issue when in an unhealthy relationship like we deal with daily here in this forum is denial, codependency comes in 2nd or maybe even 4th. IMHO.
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You are doing great...there is a book by Joel Osteen about living your best life it is really centered on what you are talking about...living in th emoment, building your self and visualizing a better life and then believing in it...All things are possible, it is just up to us to find a better way about living. I say out loud everyday, today, I will do something that challanges me, something that I like and something for someone else...through blessing and faith, life will get better and better you'll see. You just have to believe it.
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Originally Posted by Still Waters
Interesting, I've never thought of it that way. So, codependency can be a reaction to the stress of living in an alcoholic home, rather than always a learned behavior from an alcoholic (or other dysfunction) childhood.
I think codependency can also be part and parcel of ignorance. Ignorance of the disease and the dynamics.
But I do think that the root of the issue when in an unhealthy relationship like we deal with daily here in this forum is denial, codependency comes in 2nd or maybe even 4th. IMHO.
I think codependency can also be part and parcel of ignorance. Ignorance of the disease and the dynamics.
But I do think that the root of the issue when in an unhealthy relationship like we deal with daily here in this forum is denial, codependency comes in 2nd or maybe even 4th. IMHO.
The human mind is an amazing mechanism and can "adapt" to any situation and make it "normal"
when the sick system becomes "your normal" the reaction to the stress has become a "learned behavior".
we are all of us ignorant when we start, even if educated, because it looks different happening to someone else then it does from the inside. A frog in water that's boiling can look at another frog and state absolutely, "oh, yoo hoo, hey, your water is boiling" but be unable to see that they themselves are in "boiling water', even if it's pointed out to them until it becomes so uncomfortable that it's impossible to ignore, at which point the water is already boiling and it's time to go to some cold water therapy.
That's why there are sponsors, home groups and support groups in twelve step programs.
IMO denial is part of codependency, not a separate entity.
denial, enabling etc, codependency has a few recognizable traits, I was even thinking yesterday, hey my codependency is a "disease" as well, it's an unhealthy condition of mind with recognizable symptoms.
The good news about that, is if it's recognizable, it's treatable as long as I say, hey, I have this thing (see step one)
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Okay, give me some examples of how denial is part of codependency. Or, what makes us codependent I guess.
I deny the problem (alcoholism), and so I become codependent in keeping the illusion of normalcy going?
I deny the problem (alcoholism), and so I become codependent in keeping the illusion of normalcy going?
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Let me give that some thought, I had never really thought to separate the two, to me, they just always went hand in hand
I went and found definitions of denial and Codependent
I will give this some thought, it deserves it
You may be right though, denial may be at the "root" of "the problem"
Definition
Denial is the refusal to acknowledge the existence or severity of unpleasant external realities or internal thoughts and feelings.
Theory of denial
In psychology, denial is a concept originating with the psychodynamic theories of Sigmund Freud. Defense mechanisms are indirect ways of dealing or coping with anxiety, such as explaining problems away or blaming others for problems. Denial is one of many defense mechanisms. It entails ignoring or refusing to believe an unpleasant reality. Defense mechanisms protect one's psychological well being in traumatic situations, or in any situation that produces anxiety or conflict. However, they do not resolve the anxiety-producing situation and, if overused, can lead to psychological disorders <AGO edit: such as codependency?>. Although Freud's model of the id, ego, and superego is not emphasized by most psychologists today, defense mechanisms are still regarded as potentially maladaptive behavioral patterns that may lead to psychological disorders.
Examples of denial
Death is a common occasion for denial. When someone learns of the sudden, unexpected death of a loved one, at first he or she may not be able to accept the reality of this loss. The initial denial protects that person from the emotional shock and intense grief that often accompanies news of death. Chronic or terminal illnesses also encourage denial. People with such illnesses may think, "It's not so bad; I'll get over it," and refuse to make any lifestyle changes.
Denial can also apply to internal thoughts and feelings. For instance, some children are taught that anger is wrong in any situation. As adults, if these individuals experience feelings of anger, they are likely to deny their feelings to others. Cultural standards and expectations can encourage denial of subjective experience. Men who belong to cultures with extreme notions of masculinity may view fear as a sign of weakness and deny internal feelings of fear.
I went and found definitions of denial and Codependent
I will give this some thought, it deserves it
You may be right though, denial may be at the "root" of "the problem"
Definition
Denial is the refusal to acknowledge the existence or severity of unpleasant external realities or internal thoughts and feelings.
Theory of denial
In psychology, denial is a concept originating with the psychodynamic theories of Sigmund Freud. Defense mechanisms are indirect ways of dealing or coping with anxiety, such as explaining problems away or blaming others for problems. Denial is one of many defense mechanisms. It entails ignoring or refusing to believe an unpleasant reality. Defense mechanisms protect one's psychological well being in traumatic situations, or in any situation that produces anxiety or conflict. However, they do not resolve the anxiety-producing situation and, if overused, can lead to psychological disorders <AGO edit: such as codependency?>. Although Freud's model of the id, ego, and superego is not emphasized by most psychologists today, defense mechanisms are still regarded as potentially maladaptive behavioral patterns that may lead to psychological disorders.
Examples of denial
Death is a common occasion for denial. When someone learns of the sudden, unexpected death of a loved one, at first he or she may not be able to accept the reality of this loss. The initial denial protects that person from the emotional shock and intense grief that often accompanies news of death. Chronic or terminal illnesses also encourage denial. People with such illnesses may think, "It's not so bad; I'll get over it," and refuse to make any lifestyle changes.
Denial can also apply to internal thoughts and feelings. For instance, some children are taught that anger is wrong in any situation. As adults, if these individuals experience feelings of anger, they are likely to deny their feelings to others. Cultural standards and expectations can encourage denial of subjective experience. Men who belong to cultures with extreme notions of masculinity may view fear as a sign of weakness and deny internal feelings of fear.
Codependence is a pattern of detrimental, behavioral interactions within a dysfunctional relationship or relationships being with a partner, family or friends that has been described a form of disease. A codependent person is one who has let another person's behavior affect him or her, and who in the beginning of the loved one's drug career, in good faith, tries to help him stop by trying to control the drug addict and the drug. Codependency advocates claim that a codependent may feel shame about, or try to change, his or her most private thoughts and feelings if they conflict with those of another person. It involves low-self esteem, seeking for others approval, not having own boundaries with their own thought, feelings and behavior. One common trait is people-pleasing, disregarding oneself to please another. Co-dependence is discussed by John Bradshaw explaining how our dysfunctional family system creates this.
Development
Often in steps parallel to the drug addicts drug career: Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and last acceptance - that he/she is almost powerless over the other persons drug abuse.
Symptoms
Symptoms of codependence may include controlling behavior, distrust, perfectionism, avoidance of feelings, problems with intimacy, excessive caretaking, hypervigilance, or physical illness related to stress. Codependence is often accompanied by clinical depression, as the codependent person succumbs to feelings of frustration or sadness over his or her inability to improve the situation.
* tendency to place the needs and wants of others first and to the exclusion of acknowledging one's own
* continued investment of self-esteem in the ability to control both oneself and others
* anxiety and boundary distortions relating to intimacy and separation
* difficulty expressing feelings
* excessive worry how others may respond to one's feelings
* undue fear of being hurt and/or rejected by others
* self-esteem dependent on approval by others
* tendency to ignore own values and attempt to adhere to the values of others
Development
Often in steps parallel to the drug addicts drug career: Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and last acceptance - that he/she is almost powerless over the other persons drug abuse.
Symptoms
Symptoms of codependence may include controlling behavior, distrust, perfectionism, avoidance of feelings, problems with intimacy, excessive caretaking, hypervigilance, or physical illness related to stress. Codependence is often accompanied by clinical depression, as the codependent person succumbs to feelings of frustration or sadness over his or her inability to improve the situation.
* tendency to place the needs and wants of others first and to the exclusion of acknowledging one's own
* continued investment of self-esteem in the ability to control both oneself and others
* anxiety and boundary distortions relating to intimacy and separation
* difficulty expressing feelings
* excessive worry how others may respond to one's feelings
* undue fear of being hurt and/or rejected by others
* self-esteem dependent on approval by others
* tendency to ignore own values and attempt to adhere to the values of others
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I'll read that and do some thinking also, I've always had a problem with how codependency works as it has been explained to me - and this bothers me because I'm trying to work on not putting myself in bad situations again.
The closest I've come to the why's, as in where the heck did I learn this behavior: My Mom. Dad wasn't an alcoholic or addict, but he had anxiety issues. He went to work every day, then came home and stayed on the couch. He didn't do things with us kids, he engaged very little, except for discipline. Mom just worked around it - many times keeping him out of the loop altogether. One of the things that sticks out in my mind is how he couldn't go to sleep unless she was in bed - and he'd yell through the house from bed for her to get to bed. And she would, eventually. I'm not even sure that's codependency or maybe just patience.
The closest I've come to the why's, as in where the heck did I learn this behavior: My Mom. Dad wasn't an alcoholic or addict, but he had anxiety issues. He went to work every day, then came home and stayed on the couch. He didn't do things with us kids, he engaged very little, except for discipline. Mom just worked around it - many times keeping him out of the loop altogether. One of the things that sticks out in my mind is how he couldn't go to sleep unless she was in bed - and he'd yell through the house from bed for her to get to bed. And she would, eventually. I'm not even sure that's codependency or maybe just patience.
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he couldn't go to sleep unless she was in bed - and he'd yell through the house from bed for her to get to bed. And she would, eventually. I'm not even sure that's codependency or maybe just patience.
I was talking to GF yesterday and she was telling me the story of a friend who was married to a man, who, while they had triplets, toddlers, the man would work out for three hours a day.
She stated she felt she needed help with the children and was informed that his working out was "non-negotiable". He did however, move the workout time to 430 AM, but then would fall asleep at 730 at night, before bedtime for the kids.
How is that different from him being at the bar every night? He's still not around.
I believe codependent dynamics don't necessarily have to come from drinking per se, but as a way and methodology to deal with a certain set of circumstances in a relationship. Ask spouses who's sober spouse goes to a meeting 7 nights a week. There's not drinking there, but I guarantee there is a p1ssed off spouse in that arrangement (rightfully so).
I believe it was identified initially in dealing with the alcoholic family model so it's association with alcoholism is indelible, but codependency is itself, while also a reaction to alcoholism, is the stress reaction to any form of consistent abandonment, whether in childhood or marriage.
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Using your example, what is the answer? Obviously he isn't willing to give up his time, for the children. That's immaturity IMO. So what does she do? Leave him?
I mean, if he won't acknowledge that part of having children is the sacrifice of your free time, sleep, sanity, etc. () what can she do about it?
Is struggling alone without his help codependant?
I mean, if he won't acknowledge that part of having children is the sacrifice of your free time, sleep, sanity, etc. (
) what can she do about it?Is struggling alone without his help codependant?
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Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Originally Posted by Still Waters
Using your example, what is the answer? Obviously he isn't willing to give up his time, for the children. That's immaturity IMO. So what does she do? Leave him?
I mean, if he won't acknowledge that part of having children is the sacrifice of your free time, sleep, sanity, etc. () what can she do about it?
Is struggling alone without his help codependant?
I mean, if he won't acknowledge that part of having children is the sacrifice of your free time, sleep, sanity, etc. (
) what can she do about it?Is struggling alone without his help codependant?
What I would try to avoid is martyring myself, I would try to avoid "coing" him, even if it meant waking him up to help me at night. I would try to take care of myself so I didn't get a festering resentment.
What I would do however is:
I would go to LTD, Givelove, ToughChoices, Freedom, Laurie, Rachel, Lucien, Larry, Trishy, and Stevo and ask them what to do. being a combination of online and F2F support group. I'd be as objective as possible when presenting the problem, try to tell what happened without blame, and I would "tell on myself" about sh1tty behaviors I have had thus far in trying to manage this situation.
If left to my own devices I'd "punish" the bast@rd though.
I suspect it would involve healthy boundaries, when you____ I feel_____ then If you_______ I will_______ .
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
So I am really pondering this, I was rereading this and this LEAPED out at me:
Codependency is the stress reaction to any form of consistent abandonment, whether in childhood or marriage.
I wrote that off the top of my head, so for me, what that means is if I encounter what I interpret as "abandonment" that's what will make my codie tendencies flare up because of my abandonment issues from childhood.
That will account for my:
When I get "triggered" these are the things that "crop up" for me.
"triggers" may include feelings of abandonment, invalidation, or "not being heard"
So:
When I __get_triggered_, I _respond_with_the_corresponding_symptom_from_the_list_above_
But then denial will kick in with:
Interesting
I am not saying there is not "two parts" I am saying that if I am threatened or triggered my response gets unhealthy and skewed.
That's why it's so confusing, because I can stand there, point a "finger" at "their part" but be a complete mess because my response mechanism for certain scenarios is unhealthy.
I mean it can be Adolf Hitler, and in some scenarios my response would be a healthy one and I would be "clear" but in others if I were "triggered" I'd be a mess.
It has nothing to do with whether the other person is right or wrong, it has everything to do with if I feel feelings of abandonment, invalidation, or "not being heard"
Codependency is the stress reaction to any form of consistent abandonment, whether in childhood or marriage.
I wrote that off the top of my head, so for me, what that means is if I encounter what I interpret as "abandonment" that's what will make my codie tendencies flare up because of my abandonment issues from childhood.
That will account for my:
Symptoms
Symptoms of codependence may include controlling behavior, distrust, perfectionism, problems with intimacy, hypervigilance, or physical illness related to stress (my arms itch). Codependence is often accompanied by clinical depression, as the codependent person succumbs to feelings of frustration or sadness over his or her inability to improve the situation.
* continued investment of self-esteem in the ability to control both oneself and others
* anxiety and boundary distortions relating to intimacy and separation
* self-esteem dependent on approval by others
Symptoms of codependence may include controlling behavior, distrust, perfectionism, problems with intimacy, hypervigilance, or physical illness related to stress (my arms itch). Codependence is often accompanied by clinical depression, as the codependent person succumbs to feelings of frustration or sadness over his or her inability to improve the situation.
* continued investment of self-esteem in the ability to control both oneself and others
* anxiety and boundary distortions relating to intimacy and separation
* self-esteem dependent on approval by others
"triggers" may include feelings of abandonment, invalidation, or "not being heard"
So:
When I __get_triggered_, I _respond_with_the_corresponding_symptom_from_the_list_above_
But then denial will kick in with:
Denial is a <sic> Defense mechanism that is an indirect way of dealing or coping with anxiety, such as <sic> blaming others for problems. Denial is one of many defense mechanisms.
I am not saying there is not "two parts" I am saying that if I am threatened or triggered my response gets unhealthy and skewed.
That's why it's so confusing, because I can stand there, point a "finger" at "their part" but be a complete mess because my response mechanism for certain scenarios is unhealthy.
I mean it can be Adolf Hitler, and in some scenarios my response would be a healthy one and I would be "clear" but in others if I were "triggered" I'd be a mess.
It has nothing to do with whether the other person is right or wrong, it has everything to do with if I feel feelings of abandonment, invalidation, or "not being heard"
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