How much is a choice anymore?
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How much is a choice anymore?
I've been wondering lately just how much choice ABF has in his addiction anymore.
Before he met me he made the choice to drink to excess with his friends, get in fights, and generally run wild. He admits to all of it and even finds it funny. When I met him he was just out of the military and working hard and barely drank at all. When stressful family drama hit us I understood that he felt the need to drink a few after work, but he just never slowed back down. It was his choice to handle stress with alcohol (my choice was food).
But as the years have gone by, the drinking has become a driving force in his life and the different patterns of his drinking have come and gone. I wonder just how much conscious choice he is making now, and how much has the voice of alcoholism drowned his own voice out.
He has said before that he knows he has a "problem with alcohol," but he throws up a wall at the title of alcoholism and refuses any notion of seeking recovery. All of his idols are alcoholics and make their reputations on being "bad boy drinkers."
He believes he can control his drinking and makes proclimations periodically of abstaining or cutting down his drinking. Any effort he makes of course to abstain or moderate his drinking results in an escalation of his consumption and worsening of his behavior.
I no longer wonder how much he consumes, his actions and mood tell the tale, and it's only getting worse with summer coming on. I feel more and more that I am up against this as an entity rather than my ABF. BUT, I go back and forth on the idea. It's probably his stubborness about being in control of it that makes me think he might actually be somehow.
I'm trying to get past some anger here, and I'm hoping some help on this will get me there.
Alice
Before he met me he made the choice to drink to excess with his friends, get in fights, and generally run wild. He admits to all of it and even finds it funny. When I met him he was just out of the military and working hard and barely drank at all. When stressful family drama hit us I understood that he felt the need to drink a few after work, but he just never slowed back down. It was his choice to handle stress with alcohol (my choice was food).
But as the years have gone by, the drinking has become a driving force in his life and the different patterns of his drinking have come and gone. I wonder just how much conscious choice he is making now, and how much has the voice of alcoholism drowned his own voice out.
He has said before that he knows he has a "problem with alcohol," but he throws up a wall at the title of alcoholism and refuses any notion of seeking recovery. All of his idols are alcoholics and make their reputations on being "bad boy drinkers."
He believes he can control his drinking and makes proclimations periodically of abstaining or cutting down his drinking. Any effort he makes of course to abstain or moderate his drinking results in an escalation of his consumption and worsening of his behavior.
I no longer wonder how much he consumes, his actions and mood tell the tale, and it's only getting worse with summer coming on. I feel more and more that I am up against this as an entity rather than my ABF. BUT, I go back and forth on the idea. It's probably his stubborness about being in control of it that makes me think he might actually be somehow.
I'm trying to get past some anger here, and I'm hoping some help on this will get me there.
Alice
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He has a choice, he always has a choice. He can walk into an AA meeting right now.
Don't all alcoholics think or say they're in control? Don't most idolize alcohol and alcoholics?
You are up against an entity, but that entity is not separate from him. You can't deal with one and not the other.
Are you letting the feeling that he can't control it, that the alcohol is controlling him, make you feel sorry for him? I'm not quite clear on your statement
Don't all alcoholics think or say they're in control? Don't most idolize alcohol and alcoholics?
You are up against an entity, but that entity is not separate from him. You can't deal with one and not the other.
Are you letting the feeling that he can't control it, that the alcohol is controlling him, make you feel sorry for him? I'm not quite clear on your statement
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Alice,
Sending you a big hug today :ghug3
And question: What does it matter whether he has free choice or not?
Scenario #1: He has a choice, and is choosing to do something uncaring and damaging.
Scenario #2: He has no choice, refuses any help, and you're forcing yourself (for the moment) to live in a situation that is uncaring and damaging.
I assume the reason why you want to quash your anger is because you are not ready or able to set firm boundaries around his drinking?
Perhaps others who are still with their A will stop in and share how they cope on a day-to-day basis. I have little to offer there, but I am sending you my best. I know you're making great strides for yourself
Sending you a big hug today :ghug3
And question: What does it matter whether he has free choice or not?
Scenario #1: He has a choice, and is choosing to do something uncaring and damaging.
Scenario #2: He has no choice, refuses any help, and you're forcing yourself (for the moment) to live in a situation that is uncaring and damaging.
I assume the reason why you want to quash your anger is because you are not ready or able to set firm boundaries around his drinking?
Perhaps others who are still with their A will stop in and share how they cope on a day-to-day basis. I have little to offer there, but I am sending you my best. I know you're making great strides for yourself
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Are you letting the feeling that he can't control it, that the alcohol is controlling him, make you feel sorry for him?
I think you're on to something there. I had not realized that in an effort to not be angry with him, I may be trading that in for pity instead. Poor baby, he's sick. darn it.
I'm not consciously trying to do that. I hadn't really thought about what the "next" emotion was going to be, only that I want to let go of some anger I have towards him and maybe forgive myself for some bitterness I've developed.
Of course, now I see that I'm working through my feelings by analysing his motives and behavior when I shouldn't be.
I assume the reason why you want to quash your anger is because you are not ready or able to set firm boundaries around his drinking?
I can see why you would ask this, but no. I've set and kept my boundaries about his drinking. He rarely tries to cross my line in the sand, anymore. When he has tried to cross it, I've acted accordingly, and he has stepped back. I've gotten stronger at this and he has stopped trying as of late. Things are actually kind of boring. (I do know that the eye of the storm is the quietest, so I'm still working on getting out.)
I've been angry at him for a long time. These days I'm more angry at me.
The anger I have seems to be residual in my recovery and it seems to well up (like when I think of how much time I've wasted trying to change him or how I should have known I couldn't cure him or how I should have dumped him years ago when I had the chance) it makes it harder to keep up my boundaries and to act like I should. Then, to stop being angry at myself, I say it's his choices that you've been trying to change and cure, and his choices you found unacceptable back when it began.
When I start blaming him, I want to say mean things or tell him how he's made this choice and ruined things for us. I know that my anger is what will make breaking free from this life with him an aggressive and possibly volitile situation.
I just don't want to be angry anymore. I would prefer to be resolved. I'm almost there, but it keeps coming back like a fungus.
Maybe I thought if it was no longer his choice to drink anymore but rather a sickness, a compulsion he could not control, I wouldn't be able to blame him and I would have to start addressing my anger at myself and I would run out of fingers to point at him.
I think you're on to something there. I had not realized that in an effort to not be angry with him, I may be trading that in for pity instead. Poor baby, he's sick. darn it.
I'm not consciously trying to do that. I hadn't really thought about what the "next" emotion was going to be, only that I want to let go of some anger I have towards him and maybe forgive myself for some bitterness I've developed.
Of course, now I see that I'm working through my feelings by analysing his motives and behavior when I shouldn't be.
I assume the reason why you want to quash your anger is because you are not ready or able to set firm boundaries around his drinking?
I can see why you would ask this, but no. I've set and kept my boundaries about his drinking. He rarely tries to cross my line in the sand, anymore. When he has tried to cross it, I've acted accordingly, and he has stepped back. I've gotten stronger at this and he has stopped trying as of late. Things are actually kind of boring. (I do know that the eye of the storm is the quietest, so I'm still working on getting out.)
I've been angry at him for a long time. These days I'm more angry at me.
The anger I have seems to be residual in my recovery and it seems to well up (like when I think of how much time I've wasted trying to change him or how I should have known I couldn't cure him or how I should have dumped him years ago when I had the chance) it makes it harder to keep up my boundaries and to act like I should. Then, to stop being angry at myself, I say it's his choices that you've been trying to change and cure, and his choices you found unacceptable back when it began.
When I start blaming him, I want to say mean things or tell him how he's made this choice and ruined things for us. I know that my anger is what will make breaking free from this life with him an aggressive and possibly volitile situation.
I just don't want to be angry anymore. I would prefer to be resolved. I'm almost there, but it keeps coming back like a fungus.
Maybe I thought if it was no longer his choice to drink anymore but rather a sickness, a compulsion he could not control, I wouldn't be able to blame him and I would have to start addressing my anger at myself and I would run out of fingers to point at him.
Last edited by ItsmeAlice; 06-07-2009 at 04:56 PM. Reason: Wanted to add a thought.
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Given the choice of being angry with a man who does hurtful and self-centered things, or being angry with yourself for logically biding your time until leaving is an option.........well, that choice is pretty clear to me 
I'm not sure how you can hope for it to be resolved while you're still in the soup.
You're creating as quiet, waveless, and stress-free a situation as is possible for the two of you. Do you honestly believe that will make breaking up easier for either of you, if that's what you intend to do? Is it easier to leave a person who acquiesces to you, or who vents her anger to you?
Most of us here, all of these lovely people, stayed longer than we "should've", whatever that means. Would you suggest we all be angry at ourselves? Or would you instead say, "You did the best you could with what you knew at the time, let that anger go?"
Is there another way to vent off some of this suppressed rage until you choose to leave this inadequate, stressful life behind? Something that would eliminate the need for ANY pointing fingers?
I like the line in my signature: "Action is the antidote for despair." Does it help at all when you're taking some kind of tiny, measurable steps toward your goal of detaching yourself from this sad situation? Are you angry with yourself because you're not making adequate progress toward that point? Just wondering. It was true for me.
:ghug3
I'm not sure how you can hope for it to be resolved while you're still in the soup.You're creating as quiet, waveless, and stress-free a situation as is possible for the two of you. Do you honestly believe that will make breaking up easier for either of you, if that's what you intend to do? Is it easier to leave a person who acquiesces to you, or who vents her anger to you?
Most of us here, all of these lovely people, stayed longer than we "should've", whatever that means. Would you suggest we all be angry at ourselves? Or would you instead say, "You did the best you could with what you knew at the time, let that anger go?"
Is there another way to vent off some of this suppressed rage until you choose to leave this inadequate, stressful life behind? Something that would eliminate the need for ANY pointing fingers?
I like the line in my signature: "Action is the antidote for despair." Does it help at all when you're taking some kind of tiny, measurable steps toward your goal of detaching yourself from this sad situation? Are you angry with yourself because you're not making adequate progress toward that point? Just wondering. It was true for me.
:ghug3
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I've been wondering lately just how much choice ABF has in his addiction anymore.
First step is: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol and that our lives had become unmanageable.
If he's drinking he's lost the power of choice, it's a dichotomy.
just to answer the question, I will leave the recovery aspect of this to folks more qualified.
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Originally Posted by ItsmeAlice 
[B]Maybe I thought if it was no longer his choice to drink anymore but rather a sickness, a compulsion he could not control, I wouldn't be able to blame him and I would have to start addressing my anger at myself and I would run out of fingers to point at him.
My AH is like this. And he is not doing it consciously. The issue is off limits and out of bounds for me. When he gets staggering, sloppy drunk I request that he leave my space. He complies. I don't want to get into his mind, his motivations, his thoughts, his feelings. They are HIS.
And I worked through a MOUNTAIN of anger at myself before I got to this point. Yeah, I still have days when I have mini-sessions of beating myself with a stupid stick. But generally, I live my life. I get on with my business. I work my program. I went through three years of intensive counseling, and started attending Al-Anon in 1996. And I married two A's. I guess I didn't get the program the first time around, so I went back for more pain; pain that I brought on myself. And I hated myself for being so stupid.
I learned to forgive myself. I learned to forgive him. I had to let go of all the insanity and crazy stuff he pulled because the bitterness was making me physically ill and eating me up. Please consider getting into counseling and/or Al-Anon. You don't have to beat up on yourself any longer.
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Hi Alice, Life is choices. He chooses to drink. You have a choice. You can put up with it or not. He doesnt appear ready to change his mind about his lifestyle. Now you have to make a decision. Do you want to continue in this relationship? You're not going to change him, believe me. If he ever changes it's because of something he decided to do, and he decided to do it for himself. And that is the only way he'll change. Since the outlook is pretty gloomy, I suggest you get out of there. By accomodating him, you're
turning into different person, and I'm sorry to have to say this, but that person is a far cry from the original you. The change you're undergoing isn't a pretty one. So get on with your life while you can. There's nothing you can do for him.
turning into different person, and I'm sorry to have to say this, but that person is a far cry from the original you. The change you're undergoing isn't a pretty one. So get on with your life while you can. There's nothing you can do for him.
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Hi Alice,
There is nothing wrong with the emotion of anger when it is the appropriate feeling for the situation. Example: Sometimes we get angry a something there is really no reason to be angry about and it really called for patients ,or the opposite can happen, we feel sympathy when we should feel anger. Anger can be righteous and it can move us to protect . The biblical saying is we shouldn't sin in our anger, it doesn't say to reject the emotion of anger.
Like prodical, when my AH is drunk or moody I will ask him to leave my space. If he doesn't respect that, which does make me angry, I leave . Sometimes I have to leave the house. I will maybe post what is going on with me one day, but as of recently I asked AH to leave the house and he has refused. His choice makes me angry. Now I have to act on other options.
There is nothing wrong with the emotion of anger when it is the appropriate feeling for the situation. Example: Sometimes we get angry a something there is really no reason to be angry about and it really called for patients ,or the opposite can happen, we feel sympathy when we should feel anger. Anger can be righteous and it can move us to protect . The biblical saying is we shouldn't sin in our anger, it doesn't say to reject the emotion of anger.
Like prodical, when my AH is drunk or moody I will ask him to leave my space. If he doesn't respect that, which does make me angry, I leave . Sometimes I have to leave the house. I will maybe post what is going on with me one day, but as of recently I asked AH to leave the house and he has refused. His choice makes me angry. Now I have to act on other options.
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I've been quite proud of myself as of late at the progress I've made both on myself and towards my relationship with my ABF.
I'm a very slow and methodical learner so my seemingly leisurely pace at picking up the tools to work through my recovery is true to form for me. I work one step, then another, review, work again, review, on and on. If I could support myself financially, maybe it would be easier to put the pedal down and be off. Even then, I would still probably go slowly and strategically.
Since working this process, though, I just feel so much better about myself. I don't think awful thoughts about myself all the time. I am good enough, I am strong enough, I'm not to blame for every angry mood of his.
I've limited contact with my mother, who was another source of toxicity to my emotional health. That was a huge step for me.
I've rekindled a relationship with my older brother. I think he's fantastic and always have, but never felt good enough really to be part of his life. That has changed.
But this anger I have about how I got here and how I let it all get so bad I have to leave just boils over like a pot of noodles.
Thank you all for your kind support.
prodigal - I copied your post for my journal, you given me more I want to think about later.
mehandle - Thank you for reminding me that anger is healthy, what I do with it makes it work for me or against me.
Alice
I'm a very slow and methodical learner so my seemingly leisurely pace at picking up the tools to work through my recovery is true to form for me. I work one step, then another, review, work again, review, on and on. If I could support myself financially, maybe it would be easier to put the pedal down and be off. Even then, I would still probably go slowly and strategically.
Since working this process, though, I just feel so much better about myself. I don't think awful thoughts about myself all the time. I am good enough, I am strong enough, I'm not to blame for every angry mood of his.
I've limited contact with my mother, who was another source of toxicity to my emotional health. That was a huge step for me.
I've rekindled a relationship with my older brother. I think he's fantastic and always have, but never felt good enough really to be part of his life. That has changed.
But this anger I have about how I got here and how I let it all get so bad I have to leave just boils over like a pot of noodles.
Thank you all for your kind support.
prodigal - I copied your post for my journal, you given me more I want to think about later.
mehandle - Thank you for reminding me that anger is healthy, what I do with it makes it work for me or against me.
Alice
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Originally Posted by ItsmeAlice
But this anger I have about how I got here and how I let it all get so bad I have to leave just boils over like a pot of noodles.
). I'm not as angry as I was. I used a lot of it up in decorating and weeding! Taking positive steps towards selling the house helped me channel my anger usefully. Is there something similar you could do for you?I did what I did because I really didn't know any better - anything for a quiet life. I am who I am because of all of my life experiences and working through a lot of my issues with my counsellor has helped enormously. Tracing back to my early childhood and the relationships I had and saw then has helped me realised their impact on me. Looking at my current relationships I see a pattern and it helps me understand who and why I am me - if that makes sense! Do you have one on one therapy?
I'm still a little angry with STBXAH - mainly when he contacts me though! He has a disease. He is to be pitied. He needs to get treatment but refuses. So I have to let him find his own way, even though I know what he should do!
Not living with him has made a huge difference to my ability to accept and let go. The last few months of living together were pure misery. I tried detachment - it just made him verbally lash out at me even more. Keeping a grip on the anger was a strain. Be kind to yourself. At the root of a lot of my anger was blame. Blame him, blame me, get angry. In my situation though, I might as well be angry at the moon. Things happen. Bad decisions get made. Life goes on. Let it go. First 4 steps really helped me with this, maybe it could help you too?
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I too have major red flaming fiery anger moments, at myself. Why didn't I see it sooner? Why did I do that? Why didn't I do this? How stupid can I be???? Etc.
But this anger is debilitating, because it inhibits my decision making process. I know I screwed up and now I'm terrified of making any decisions, since I might make another bad one! I don't have any great advice at this point Alice, cause that's where I'm stuck.
I'm seriously considering moving again, and I'll admit that a big reason is employment, but a HUGE reason is to get somewhere that I can get back into counseling. Then I feel guilty that I'm making a decision "all about me". Sigh.
But this anger is debilitating, because it inhibits my decision making process. I know I screwed up and now I'm terrified of making any decisions, since I might make another bad one! I don't have any great advice at this point Alice, cause that's where I'm stuck.
I'm seriously considering moving again, and I'll admit that a big reason is employment, but a HUGE reason is to get somewhere that I can get back into counseling. Then I feel guilty that I'm making a decision "all about me". Sigh.
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Thank you both for the responses!
Bookwyrm - you hit it right on the head for me this morning. I've been blaming because it puts a face to problem and gives me someone to be angry at. You're right. It's as productive as being angry at the moon. What good does it do me? This morning I was trying to find a focus for this energy. I have started to put a list of things to do towards leaving. I've been putting some things off (packing up, selling or throwing out unneeded items etc). It's time to get the show on the road.
Still Waters - Debilitating is how it feels, you're right. I agonize over the simplest of decision sometimes, and even that makes me agitated.
The support is invaluable, thank you both!
Bookwyrm - you hit it right on the head for me this morning. I've been blaming because it puts a face to problem and gives me someone to be angry at. You're right. It's as productive as being angry at the moon. What good does it do me? This morning I was trying to find a focus for this energy. I have started to put a list of things to do towards leaving. I've been putting some things off (packing up, selling or throwing out unneeded items etc). It's time to get the show on the road.
Still Waters - Debilitating is how it feels, you're right. I agonize over the simplest of decision sometimes, and even that makes me agitated.
The support is invaluable, thank you both!
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