Ago

I had kind of an -a-ha- moment last night

I seem to pick people who "push" on my "No"

I'm beginning to figure out, I don't "pick" them, the world is full of them, I "allow" them (to not take my "No" for an answer)

I had this realization about a work issue and realize it's been a pervasive pattern for quite some time for me, for whatever reason, usually some sort of fear based reason, I "allow" my "No" to be beaten down in certain situations.

This is what happened.

I'm working for a guy, I stated my "rates" before I started working for him, after I worked for him a short time, he started coming up to me and saying "I can't afford to pay you your full rate, can I pay you $50 less today?"

I replied, "Yes, of course"

within a short period of time the lower rate was the new "norm"

I go back to him, restate my rates, he tells me a story about how hard of a time he is having, apologizes and pays me my "normal" rate for a week or two, then he comes up, asks again, "Hey, this is an underbid, can I pay you a lower rate for this job?"

within a week, the lower rate is the "norm" again

I go back, restate my rates, rinse and repeat, within two weeks we are back on the lower rate

Now, I am taking $50 a day less because I am having trouble finding steady work elsewhere, and I am moving soon so I figure, hang on until I move, then I move, the economy here is incredibly depressed, businesses in my field are working 2-3 days a week, with everyone scrambling for work.

He approaches me, and asks will I take $50 less for a job he has underbid, it's a week and a half job, so it's quite a bit of work. Keep in mind this 50 less then my 50 less, it's now 100 less a day then my "rate"

I agree reluctantly. It's the hardest grueling few weeks I have worked in ten years.

The job ends, and I do some other work for him, for the "normal" rate, but he owes me some back pay.

He pays me the new new lower rate for one of those days.

He has now beat my pay down by 1/3, $100 a day

I call another climber that I know, ask him what his "day rate" is, how's business etc., then tell him what's going on with me. He states 300 a day, and he's keeping busy (same normal rate as me)

He had exactly the same experience with this company I am working for, but left as soon as this guy started pulling these stunts. As soon as he started coming up and saying "sorry, I can't afford to pay you your full rate" the climber walked.

He actually used the exact the same language to describe what was going on as I did. This man takes his financial problems and takes it out of our pay. His other climber took a 4 week vacation to be with his new son, and came back to a 25% reduction in pay.

As we work for this man, as time goes on, we earn less, most Companies, you earn "raises" this Company, you earn "lowers" as he pushes on your boundaries. He does this to all his climbers I am finding out.

Anyway, sorry for the long explanation, but to sum up:

When faced with "intolerable behavior' this climber friend of mine just walked away, no hard feelings, just buh bye

I stayed, and got angry, I ALLOWED this man to beat on my boundary until I was making 100 a day less then what I was even making 10 years ago.

I ALLOWED it by not "walking" because of fear.

I can sit and tell daily stories about what a shitheel this man is every day, because he pulls about a stunt a day, or I can find a new job.

Anyhow, I was looking at all of this, and every one of my codependent "stories" matches this. My relationship stuff, my family stuff.

For some reason, usually fear, I don't "enforce" my "No" long enough, or hard enough..or whatever

I mean I don't "cave" immediately" it takes a great deal of persistence to "beat" my "No" down to a "Yes, I will tolerate the intolerable" but in some situations, eventually I allow it.

This "story" is not about what a bad man this person is, although what he does is reprehensible, it's HOW I ALLOWED IT IN MY LIFE

I'm really tired of it.

This is why I started my own business in the first place FFS, why oh why did I have to give that up?

Oh yeah, another person in my life "beating down my No until it became a Yes"

My Mother.

I'm pretty cranky today, but time to keep on moving forward, you know?

So I think the difference between us and "them" or what we all share in common, or have shared in the past, is at some point in time we "tolerate the intolerable" and it gets "crazy making"

tallulah

That about sums up my relationship with the ex. Give a little, a little more, a little more.. and before you know it boundary stomped all over, trampled into the ground and what you are left with becomes 'the norm'.

My problem was boundaries. Not generally, I'm pretty good with being assertive in the real world... but with him I was absolutely pathetic... to the point where I lost all respect for myself and he had no need to respect me because he could just be however he wanted to be and I seemed to accept it.

Lesson learned.

GiveLove

I can see why you're cranky. What a shitheel.

I went through the same, with alcoholism and with employers, and lately with being self-employed.

It's a pattern we were taught on many levels. I was never taught to build reserves (of money, time, energy, self-esteem, trust) for myself so I would feel I had the POWER to say no and stick to it. I allowed myself to become desperate, so I could fulfill my family's prophecy and have to say: "I had to do it. I had no choice."

That's some tough programming to overcome, isn't it, Andrew? I've got it too, all the way down to my toenails. Here's to you for calling out the pattern. Now you can work on dismantling it.

And OT from another self-employed person ---- his underbidding a job is NOT your problem. He clearly does this to get the job, and then takes it out of your back. I can't swear here, but I'm unleashing a torrent of profanity in the comfort and privacy of my little office right now in your defense

You can start by restating your rates, making it clear you're not interested in discussing any future reductions no matter what poor choices he makes, and letting him "fire" you if that's not good enough for him. You may be surprised at the chain of events that boldness unleashes. I have fired clients when I could ill afford to do so, and was amazed at what happened next. Trust.

Ago

agreed, but for some reason I think if I stand in front of these people, and state my boundaries and "enforce" them, I think they will listen, or respect them.

It's like it gets respected for a short time, then "the campaign" begins again to trample my boundaries. I state and "enforce" my boundary again and again, and it's like I finally just get too tired or overwhelmed or something eventually.

When I had my own business, whenever I encountered a potential client that would start "pushing on my boundaries" I would immediately refer them to another Company, and state I didn't feel we would be a good fit, I noticed whenever potential customers started trying to get "something for nothing" during the "bid" process, I would have difficulty getting paid at the end of the job without them trying to get "something for nothing" at the end of the job. Every Time. When I would "freelance" for other companies, they got one chance, one BS maneuver and I would just walk away. That's the only thing that has seemed to work for me.

What I think I am beginning to learn, is people who push on your boundaries, do so because they don't recognize or respect them. People who have pushed on my boundaries in the past continued until I walked away.

That was the case with my family and some relationships, I state my boundaries, try and "enforce them' and they either just ignored them, went around them, or over them, and I end up absolutely bonkers, I mean batshyte crazy, eyeballs rolling in my head looking like Cartman from South Park yelling "respect my authoritiiiieeeee"

I don't know, but I think healthy people (or people with healthy boundaries) just walk away at the first sign of this BS, but I find if I have to "state" or "enforce" a boundary with somebody, it's already too late, they have already crossed it, and people who do that, will continue to do that until I "cave", like people who don't respect boundaries, don't respect boundaries, you shouldn't HAVE to teach others common courtesy and ethics, you know?

GiveLove

Now, this could be because I'm the suspicious type, but I rarely assume complete innocence when it comes to trampling boundaries.

I have noticed that people who attempt to trample my boundaries have often made a habit of that in other parts of their lives. What you have then is the perfect mating between people trained to allow their boundaries to be stomped (us) with people who are accustomed to only giving importance to their own needs, and the rest be damned.

But taking our marbles and moving to another part of the playground is still the answer. We don't need to play with people like that. And what's more, I think the only way they'll ever get the message is if NOBODY plays with them.

In an ideal world, there would be communication between all the people who do what Andrew does, and this guy would be blacklisted.

Guess I'm cranky too

Ago

Tiny OT reply

If he clears (after expenses) a thousand to eight hundred a day he is "losing money" and that's when he "lowers my rates" because he "didn't make anything on this job", I had my own company for a lot of years, I know what jobs and labor cost, and I see his bids. If he was actually "losing money" I would be much more sympathetic. The truth is his wife is snorting their $$$ and going on shopping sprees that would make Paris Hilton check into credit card rehab.

Thank you for your reply, and yeah, that's the conclusion I came to as well (non-negotiable rates or "firing him").

I don't "assume innocence" but i realize he is just "doing it" not "doing it to me" as in he does it to everyone. It's his MO, it's who he is. He has knocked down the pay of every climber that has come through, he already has a huge laundry list of climbers that have him blacklisted.

So very very very angry though.

What I do is already hard enough, hurts enough, and is dangerous enough to not have to deal with this crap. I am covered in scratches and bruises and slept both weekend days, all day, I was so beat up and tired.

tallulah

Amen!

And I have to agree with anvil. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I've come to realise that the whole boundary thing was pretty much a non starter with the A in any event.. he didn't really recognise them because his were skewed in places, so no healthy frame of reference. Meanwhile as they are circumventing them, you are trying to hold onto them until your fingernails bleed and you are craaaaaazy, or reset them, or do just about anything to 'get some respect around here!!!!!!!!'. :rotfxko

I'm pondering what I will do if someone pushes my boundaries in the future. I think if someone pushes at your boundary once I would have to look at the motivation for why (testing me/ignorance/did I clearly establish it/bison on the rampage etc.).. in certain circumstances I may not tell them to take a hike. But, any repeat(s) and they would have to be gone. It is sooo hard, because I don't want to go to the other extreme and be stubborn, cold and completely unyielding. But duh... I seem to manage it in other areas of my life so maybe I just need to do some skill transference.

Thank you for this thread.. it is getting the old introspective juices going. :ghug

Ago

It does to me

The concept makes sense but I would use different language maybe, I mean predators in the wild are "innocent" but try explaining that to the mouse in the Owls Talons you know?

Ago

OMFG I am

I have like based my life on some things my father had told me when I was young, then talked to him about it 20 years later and he's said "I said what??? I musta been drunk!" or "No I said __________" (something completely different) or "I was just joking son"

That Will Farrel Movie, Talledegha Nights, was totally stupid, but his father totally reminded me of my father, this kid who bases his entire life on what he thinks his father's philosophy is, then when he talks to him about it, his father says "I said what? I was drunk son"

His entire life philosophy.

There was a scene where he puts a mountain Lion in the car with Will Farrel to teach him to drive without fear, that is EXACTLY the kind of sh1t my dad did, I mean we even had a mountain Lion for a pet twice when we lived in the mountains

/wipes tear

Best laugh I've had in a while

LaTeeDa

It goes back to the old 'we teach people how to treat us' concept. Human nature is such that people will do exactly what they can get away with.

Can you tell I am the mother of a teenager, lol?

L

Ago

I actually don't think we teach people how to treat us as much as "allow" things

I didn't teach this man how to give "lowers" instead of "raises" that was in place long before I came along, eventually I allowed it though.

LaTeeDa

But, the more we 'allow' things, the more people learn what they can get away with. Thus, in that way, we are teaching them how to treat us......

They learn that some people will not put up with their crap and others will.

L

silkspin

Such an interesting thread, thanks for starting it! When I went on mat leave I tried freelancing. I got a bite for a project; they were even willing to have me travel (as I was moving from the city). I agonized over a rate; I was new in freelancing, but I do have experience. I finally went with a number that I calculated as reasonable; I covered my costs, had some profit, but accounted for my 'newness'. The guy never got back to me; and for a while I was very upset and even had the urge to call him back and reduce my (already reduced) rate. Then I caught myself. Why should I? Don't even know the guy and I'm willing to sacrifice? That experience taught me a lesson; that I have to have confidence in myself and not second guess my abilities.

GiveLove

I think that's kinda LTD's point. By allowing (for whatever reason, good or bad) we teach them that it's okay to do it again, or to do it to others. Same with the A's. Our actions can inadvertently teach them that their tactics are acceptable to us. That it might work, so why not keep doing it?

I understand what you mean, though.

They're not doing it TO us, they're just DOING it.

But someone who decides he's going to take the pork chop out of a tiger's mouth will quickly learn to never, ever, ever try to do that again. It's that kind of resolve I'm trying to develop: the ability to stand so firmly in my own shoes that abusers just bounce off me like so many ping-pong balls. And all the while, I keep on whistling and living my life.

Mmmmm, pork chops.

Still Waters

Interesting thread. I know you've been dealing with this jacka$$ for a while Ago, it would drive me crazy.

I have something to add:

I showed my neighbor about e-cigs, he needed to quit smoking desperately and had tried every other stop smoking method available. I was fixing to make an order, so he asked if I could pick him up one like mine. Not a big deal at all.

But - later - he can't get it to work right, needs my help. A part quit working, needs my help. Got a new monitor, can't figure out how to hook it up, needs my help. Needs another part (I was making another order anyway) can I make the order, then can't wait for my email - has to show up to bug me about it.

Obviously this person has a problem. Thing is, this made me furious. And my anger is the problem I'm having with it. Not that he's screwed up - that's obvious and I've made it quite clear to him to handle his own things, 'cause I'm not willing to do it for him. He of course acted all hurt etc. Whatever.

But - why did this make me so mad? Why didn't it just make me laugh at his idiocy and move on?

MissFixit

Hi,

My 2 cents. We teach people how to treat us by ALLOWING things. We might state our boundaries, they get ignored and we continue to engage with them with the hope or promise of better times.

In business (this is a huge generality) based on my classes and life experience, people (not all) will push you until you MAKE them stop. Whether by walking away, talking it out, signing a contract or suing them, as long as some forlks can "get away" with soemthing they will. To them it is okay as no one is getting seemingly hurt. I bet they would buck if you did that to them, so they assume others will not allow it if they really mean it. I think it is a mindset for some folks, nothing personal. As long as its legal or they don't get caught....

I don't like dealing with folks like that as I more often than not get hurt or get my nose out of joint. If I can avoid them, I do, in ALL aspects of my life.

I want to be around honest positive people as much as possible.

Miss

Freedom1990

Well there you go! How out of control do you suppose he's feeling with his personal life at home? I'd be willing to bet there are zero boundaries in that marriage.

He's got to have somewhere to pass off his frustration/feeling out of control, and what better way than to chip away at you time and time again until you're making a third less than you should (plus it leaves more money for his wife to snort/spend).

If he gets you to take less money, I'll bet that gives him some small sense of control in his life.

catlovermi

Hmmmm. Can't help thinking I see a great opportunity for you to start your own climbing business, hire all these disgruntled climbers, treat them fairly, then blow Mr. Cheatyou out of town....

Make lemonade from those lemons...

CLMI

freya

I think on some level, the reason it gets "crazy making" is because, in order to tolerate the intolerable, we play head-games with ourselves. We pretend that "they" have all the power; we pretend that "they" are out to get us; we tell ourselves that we are being so nice to "them;" and we wait for "them" out of the goodenss of their hearts (of which they have amazingly little), to see the light and treat us right and with respect. We go to pretty much any length not to accept who and what they really are, so that we don't have to do the thing we most don't want to do: stand up for and take care of ourselves.

I just had a conversation last might with an Al Anon newcomer (several years in AA) after a meeting. She's been having a lot of issues with her dad. I've heard her discuss it a lot in AA meetings, then a few weeks ago, she shows up at Al Anon. Anyways, she's talking about how she wants/needs to limit contact with him and then he calls and she answers and it gets into this 45 minute to an hour thing of him b*tching and moaning and being not-at-all-nice to her...and by the time it's over she's angry and strung out and wants to kill him, but next time he calls, the same thing happens.

So, I was asking her questions about if she really wants a relationship with him and why and under what circumstances (which, it doesn't seem she is really clear about -- or rather seems like she is, on a sub-concious level, very clear about it but very hesitant to admit the truth to herself) and she just keeps comg back to what a jerk he is and how much she resents him.

So, finally, I said to her: "Who do you really resent here?" And she's like "Him. I hate him." And I'm like: "Why?" And she's like looking at me like I'm speaking swahili or something, so I added: "Who's the one who answers the phone? Who's the one who holds the phone to your ear? Who's the one who wastes her time listening to trash-talk instead of saying "Sorry, gotta go."?

Pigeons do what pigeons do...and if we choose to stand under the tree where the pigeons roost, then they're going to do it on us (.....regardless of what boundaries we try to set with them!). If we don't like that, then......

freya

TakingCharge999

Has this happened to you? You put a boundary, and are willing to defend it as if your life depended on it...

And you do not have any new "chance" to prove its there!! Its as if they all know you put it and they won't even come close anymore. And you lose the satisfaction of saying "I won't allow this" !!

I also dislike people that want to take as much as they get away with. There is a place here that sells tacos, and you just order them, and by the end you just tell the cashier how many you ate and pay. Well, ex AH always said he had 3 when he had 16 or more!!

I told him it was precisely for people like him that these kind of places went broke or had to change their dynamics, and then we all lose. Of course he thought I was crazy and making it a "big deal".

Such a major turn off, I would not even consider having someone like that as a friend.