Suspicious

I have the book codependent no more ordered but in the meantime I have been reading online.
When I looked up a dictionary meaning of codependent it sounds as tho a person can only be codependent with someone who has an unhealthy addiction such as alcohol, drugs, gambling etc.

Does this mean that a person who exibits codependent behavior with a PERFECTLY SANE & SOBER (lol) person isnt codependent. All jokes aside I am being serious because it seems that a person who becomes codependent(as opposed to being that way naturally) only becomes that way because the relationship is unhealthy because of addiction problems.

I know I am prolly making this much more complicated than it needs to be. I just wonder if a person can start showing the signs of a codie because of the addiction even BEFORE we know there is an addiction?

And no Freedom, I am not looking for an excuse lol... I really am wondering about this and not for my own benefit.

It isnt clear to me whether for most people is the codie thing a reaction and therefore once the problem is gone the codie traits are gone or were we always codies just prowling around looking for a good specimen to attach our codi-ness to. Will I always have to be on the lookout for MY codie to come to the surface even in healthy relationships or can I just learn to recognize the type of people & relationships that will make this come out in me and stay away.

laurie6781

I think any human being can be co-dependent to some extent.

What I had to figure out for me was when WAS I BEING CO-DEPENDENT.

And for me I had to keep it simple:

When I am doing for someone else what they can do for themselves than I AM being co-dependent.

Now if I go get some groceries for a neighbor who is 'laid up' that is not co-dependent. But if I go get her groceries because she doesn't want to, then I am being a codie.

Hope that helps.

Love and hugs,

Suspicious

Oh boy!!! Ok, I have faith that I can and will do the needed work to not let this control my personal relationships. Now the thing I worry about is how do we codies manage to parent? How will I know the difference in giving advice & trying to control OR abandoning them when they need our guidance & letting them learn by figuring it out on their own.

NoelleR

"...When I looked up a dictionary meaning of codependent it sounds as tho a person can only be codependent with someone who has an unhealthy addiction such as alcohol, drugs, gambling etc.
Does this mean that a person who exibits codependent behavior with a PERFECTLY SANE & SOBER (lol) person isnt codependent..."

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Well, technically speaking and/or technically semantically speaking, most of the dictionary definition are correct, and therefore the simple answer to your question would be.....: yes, that person would NOT be considered a codependent.....but could probably be pigeon-holed in one of the many other 'dysfunctional' categories.....

Remember, .....: Codependence is a term which has been defined variously. In general, the codependent is understood to be a person who perpetuates the alcohol or drug dependence of someone close to them in a way that hampers recovery. This can be done through direct control over the dependent, by making excuses for their dysfunctional behavior or relieving them of the consequences of the dependence. In an act called enabling, this can have negative social and health consequences for both parties.

In other words, the codependent is dependent on the person who is dependent on alcohol and/or drugs.....clear as mudd, eh...... LOLOL


NoelleR

winnie12

Someone explained to me a different definition of codependancy a few months ago which made a lot more sense to me and goes a bit deeper to the core of "why" I do these things. She said that codependancy is when you do not have your own identity so you live through others - they become a reflection of us in our minds. When they do well we do well, when they fail we fail - so in an attempt for us to feel good we try to make them do what we want them to do. She further said that when we get to the point that we live for ourselves and find our own true identity that others cannot manipulate us and we will not try to manipulate them. We will know we have our true identity when we act the exact same way no matter where we are or who we are with (you know how you can have a different personality around your parents/friends/employer/etc) When we know ourselves then we dont try to live through others and this is when we are truly free.

i def believe that codependancy is in all relationships when someone has those traits - its not just for addicts its for anyone we love that has any problem. but the core is because we are living through other people instead of allowing others to be themselves and knowing who we are as people. This all boils down to acceptance - accepting them for exactly who they are and accepting ourselves for exactly who we are.

Callie

I agree with all of the others, but I will put my own spin on it. I was raised nowhere near anyone who was an addict. My parents were awesome. They raised my brother and sister and I to be kind, caring, giving and loving. My sister is alot like me. ALOT. But she married a guy from a similar background and their relationship is great. It's a give and take R. BUT I could see my sister being just like me if she ever got involved with an addict. I KNEW my AH wasn't from the same background, but had absolutely clue just how different our lives were before we got together.

I think the difference between a normal giving person and a codie is who they're with. If they're with someone who is equally giving the R sails along just fine. If they're with someone like an addict - it's rough ride. I think a normal, kind person can become codie VERY quickly when with an addict. JMO - but not all codie's come from dysfunctional or addiction. That's the one distinction that I've made with Melodie Beatty's books. She talks about trauma in childhood, abuse, drugs, alcohol. This 'trains' kids to be codies. I had absolutely NONE of that.

Daisy09

Kind of a rant, and I certainly don't intend offence to anyone, but...

Doesn't anyone get sick of all the labelling of people these days? I know I do. I had read an article a few months ago from a French newspaper titled something along the lines of: America, Land of the Afflicted. It was a commentary on how for some reason there seems to be a lot of labelling going on, like "I'm a codie" or "he's OCD", or "they're ADHD" or something. I don't know, I just feel like people are people, and everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and I'm not sure that categorizing/grouping people is really helpful to society. I think it divides us when unity would really be more helpful. I don't know exactly where I'm going with this, but it's something that really gets under my skin.

Anybody know what I mean?

Just my $.02,
Daisy

catlovermi

The labeling thing works well for me, because it gives me a tool.

It helps me to know what sort of "flavor" to expect, and all its nuances.

Lumping everyone together tends to blur my ability to see clearly, and set boundaries, and call a spade a spade.

This I find particularly dangerous when dealing with addicts. They are cunning and manipulative, and the more clarity I have in knowing their characteristics and behaviors, and MY responses to those, the better equipped I am to move forward in a mindful manner.

I know when I feel discomfort at a label, it usually is sending me a message of some sort. There's a reason why I'm resistant, and unfortunately it's usually a truth I don't want to surface up, where I'll be forced to see it for what it is, and then deal with it.

When we keep things vague and amorphous, we don't have to deal with them. It's the codie version of numbing ourselves out, and avoiding dealing with them.

Just MHO,

CLMI

winnie12

labels sometimes help us to group together for support. i agree that in the US it is a bit overused - there is a disease for everything when sometimes its just life but i dont really mind the codie label because it helps me to get support for my particular issues.

cece1960

I don't see codie as a label, but rather an accurate description of my actions. There are areas in my life where I tend to be less codie, and areas that I have been able to indentify as acting in a codependant manner.

My struggle has more to do with my kids. I struggle with feeling responsible for their happiness. Even without addiction, my codieisms come out in different forms at different times.

In my personal life, I don't see myself as quite as "afflicted". I've gone through the early years of lowered self esteem and various bizarre relationships, but managed to stop the bus when things became clear. I'm in a healthy place now with my years of wisdom (and bad choices lol) under my belt, so I feel more secure and grounded.

Would addiction in my personal relationships cause my codie behaviors to kick in? I don't know...and I am happy not finding out

Daisy09

Thanks all for sharing your opinions...forgive me, but I haven't quite figured out how to quote different people in one response...

I see where you're coming from, but doesn't it feel a bit like stereotyping? If I was addicted to something, I would rather be called "a person addicted to whatever" than "a whatever addict." It just feels wrong to me to dehumanize. So I guess that clarifies for me a bit - I don't have a problem with labels per se, but more with when a label replaces a person. I liked how Cece put it, "...acting in a co-dependent manner."

I see your point, but the problem for me is, I feel discomfort with all labels, and I know I can't be everything

Anvil, thanks for mentioning "none of those are EXCUSES to KEEP behaving badly - ie can't help it, i'm nothing but a dope fiend." That's another part of my issue with it!


BTW - I hope this isn't thread-stealing. I just felt moved to comment. It's something I've always been uncomfortable with.

Thanks to all, especially Suspicious for starting this thread!
Daisy

catlovermi

Daisy,

For me, labels are not loaded with extra baggage. They are simply shorthand to describe a syndrome in one word, that more or less works. I don't load labels in my mind with the value of the person, moral judgments of a person, etc. They are simply shorthand descriptive to me.

Let me give you an example. Would you prefer to call a diabetic "a person whose Islets of Langerhans cells in the pancreas have failed to function, rendering them unable to produce insulin at the usual levels and who therefore has trouble processing blood sugars"? When you call someone a diabetic, are they dehumanized?

I would suggest that possibly definitions of some labels are loaded with more than just the descriptive facts, and that this baggage is what makes the people whose definitions including this baggage uncomfortable about those labels. For example, many people who have not been exposed much to alcoholism think of an alcoholic as a cheap-wine-drinking-sloppy-lazy-homeless-drunk-who-is-a-net-drain-on-society. This is not the true definition of alcoholism. It entails much more in terms of baggage and judgment.

Food for thought.

CLMI

Daisy09

Honestly, and I'm not trying to be annoying or "pick nits", but yes, they would be. I'd call them a person with diabetes. It's a part of who they are, but it doesn't define their existence.

Suspicious

No worrys about the thread... as long as we are talking I am learning.

winnie12

Now i'm hijacking the thread because as a mom of a diabetic i had to giggle at your description - completely on spot but sure would take a long time to say and then i'd have to explain all of it since most dont even know what it means.

catlovermi

So, when you call somebody a woman, or a student, is that dehumanizing?

Do we need to call them a person whose gender is female, or a person whose current major occupation is studying?

CLMI

Daisy09

My point (which I must not be making very well) is that words/labels can be powerful and very hurtful. I don't think that anyone would be offended by having their being defined by being called a "woman", because, generally speaking, that label does not have a negative connotation. However, calling someone "an addict" DOES have extremely negative stereotypes attached to it. Think of it...what comes to mind when you think of "a student"? Now, what image does your mind produce when you think of "an addict"? I'll bet it's a lot less flattering. What I'm saying is that calling someone "a codie" brings to MY mind an image of what that person's life is like. Now, is that the way I want to think of someone I've never even met? No. Even "a diabetic" - the first thing I think of is this person's disease - I don't image what books they like to read, what they're favorite color is, what they wanted to be when they grew up - I immediately think "wow, it must be tough for them to live with that disease." Does that make sense? If it works for you, that's great, but all I'm saying is that it doesn't for me and that there must be others like me out there so maybe it wouldn't hurt to be careful about labelling people.

With all the best intentions,
Daisy

Freedom1990

My codependency is about as 'gone' as my alcoholism/addictions.

I work a program of recovery in all areas of my life (codependency/alcoholism/addictions).

winnie12

Well when i introduce my son to someone i dont say "hey this is my diabetic son" that's just something people find out about him once they get to know him. They typically find out when they eat a meal with him and he injects his insulin. One thing that actually bothers him and me isnt the term diabetic but the people who think its something that makes him handicapped - this is just who he is - he has a different life than some but its normal for us - nothing that we need or want pity for. but if someone else doesnt understand his disease and jumps to conclusions about it well that's their problem not ours - its not going to stop him from being a diabetic.

Remember many of us are on this site because we share a common problem and we are willing to admit that problem to one another. This site isnt about society it is about a group that willingly comes here for help. Who exactly would i be harming by calling myself codie?

Daisy09

Hi Anvil,

Thanks for getting my point I thought about this overnight before responding...I think that the truth is that most people, regardless of the realm, do have negative connotations associated with these words. Given the choice, would you want to be "an addict"? You are right, it all depends on how much each person gives to these terms.

I'm not a perimenopausal nut job yet but (quite a bit OT) I am also a cook, and a dancer! My girls and I have our dance recital this weekend. I had read an old post of yours about spandex in public and had to laugh out loud! I get to wear spandex pants, suspenders, and a fedora while tap dancing to Barry Manilow's "Big Fun" - should be a wild time!

I sincerely hope I didn't offend anyone with my musings on the finer points of language...

Hope everyone has a nice weekend,
Daisy