Doppelganger

And another lurker steps into the light. Howdy Doody.

Yesterday afternoon I was watching a film about the sort of underground railroad that the Catholic church in Italy was running during WWII to smuggle jews away. (Due largely to this effort, 80% of Italian jews survived. In other parts of Europe under Nazi control, 80% died.) Anyway it got me to thinking about my Dad, who was a POW for almost three years during that war. He never would talk much about it. It occured to me that there might be some info on the web. I did know his infantry division and where he served and was held. Get ready for the web page title... "Stalag IIB: The Worst Prison Camp in Germany". Are you sick yet? I was. And yet I read. Everything he told us about was in there. And so much more. I sobbed. It lasted longer than when I saw Saving Private Ryan. My Dad saved my Uncle's life in North Africa, next to be captured in the invasion of Sicily. He was sent first to Buchenwald (yes, THAT Buchenwald) , then on to IIB in Pomerania. My Uncle, on the other hand, got patched up and returned to duty, eventually to be shot again on Omaha Beach. He lived. He's outlived my Dad and he's an alcoholic, too.

"Where in the world is she going with this?" you may be asking yourself. My Dad was a wonderful father in many ways... most ways. He was my hero and he was an American hero. The love and admiration I have for him I can only describe as "fierce". The only ways in which he was not wonderful had to do with his drinking. And, although I understand and believe that his alcoholism was born in his trauma and don't have any blame to place, it did affect me. However, I feel enormous guilt whenever I try to focus on the things that happened when I was growing up that must contribute to my codependency. It feels like I'm criticizing or judging my Dad and Mom (who is wonderful in her own ways). That shuts me down. I know logically that holding the situation up for examination is not making a condemnation of my Dad, but it feels that way.

And so... now that I've managed to pull myself out of Rasputin's follies (which are incidentally, greatly diminished and no longer include narcotics)... I know it's time to look at the reasons I got into that nightmare in the first place. But the guilt stops me. Every time I start.

Thoughts?

Dop

Ann

Dop

First I have to say what a touching story that is about your dad. My father-in-law fought in Italy, North Africa and Holland, and it is only in the last 10 years that he has share some of the more tragic stories. I can't even imagine going through that.

I too have codependency issues related to my mother, who was an angel on earth. But things were quite different when raising children in the 50's and 60's and we were stiff upper lip Anglo's who were taught to never show more than appropriate emotion. I was not allowed to express frustration or anger, even in a civilized way, nor was I allowed to complain. And I also wasn't allowed to show "too much" happiness, lest I be though giddy. Hugs were scarce and love was assumed but not vocalized. So it took me most of my life to learn to acknowledge, recognize and feel my emotions.

It wasn't so much any fault of my mother (who also taught me many of my life's most valuable lessons), but that is the way she was raised and it fit with the "norm" of the era.

Maybe if you can examine that which intimidates you from a more neutral point of view. Pretend you are looking at the same situation for a friend. Looking at the situation with compassion for your parents may help too.

This may not be what you were looking for, but it is the only way I could get past "criticizing" anything my mother did.

Hugs
Ann

JT

What is it about guilt anyway??

I have felt guilty about the Beav, I was made at one time to feel guilty about the alcoholism of my first husband. I have felt guilt at all I have, when my mother or father never bought a home of thier own. I feel guilty when I am around anyone who has less than me.

There was a time when I would not allow my own happiness because I felt gulity about feeling happy when my son was suffering. I apologized to Ward for bringing him into my dysfunction. Guilt again.

In my case I always tell myself that it wasn't THAT bad...that, I think, is where the guilt comes from. My mother had it much worse in her childhood and probably married my father simply to run away from her own world,

I should be able to detach from that the same way I could detach from myself when I was examining my own shortcomings and flaws and mistakes. If I can forgive myself I know I can forgive my parents...but forgiving is not the problem.

Is feeling ungrateful the same as guilt? I don't think it is..so guilt is not my issue. Or maybe it is...guilty about not feeling properly grateful.

Guilt is nasty and incidious...where in the world does it come from?

Hugs,
JT

journeygal

Hi Dop,

Searching for clues and insight into your codependency doesn't mean you're looking for someone to blame or trying to figure out who caused it or who's fault it was. And it's not like any of our parents brought us into this world and said, "You know what? I think I'll make my child codependent." They did the best they could and loved us the best they could. Accepting what was and what is is not a condemnation of who they were. It's all about understanding why we are the way we are.

Your dad was a wonderful man who lived through horrors none of us can even begin to imagine. He did the best he could in dealing with those horrors and drinking was one of his ways. And unfortunately, it affected you. But it doesn't change who he was or what he meant to you. I know you feel guilty, but you have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about.

Hugs,
JG

Gypsygirlmom

Dopp,

I really had to work in reverse to deal with the addict in my life today and how I was reacting to it. Going back to my childhood to an alcoholic father and other issues was very painful. But I was doing this for me and no one else. What I found was that as I started working thru each area, and accepting my parents for who they were and that they did the best they could at the time, these "demons" from my past started to lose its power over me. There were some periods of some pretty bad lows as I had worked thru some things, but then it seemed to fall magically into its place and is no longer any kind of obsession in my life. I remember in the beginning I felt so much guilt for thinking terrible things about them and was so angry...all I could think about was confronting my mother. I'm glad I didn't at the time. It would have been for the wrong reasons. After some time, I started detaching from them and trying to understand where they "were at" when all this was going on. This is where I learned compassion. I know my parents wanted the best for me. And if they weren't so messed up with the alcoholism and merry go round games the things that happened never would have. I know now that loving my parents has nothing to do with not liking the things they did. They didn't set out to be alcoholics and to do any harm to their children. If anything, I feel sorry they were so messed up and just couldn't get it together. But what was my point....Guilt, I lost that guilt feeling about going back there when I was able to finally feel compassion for them. And when I felt that compassion, I'll never forget the day driving in the truck home, it all of a sudden hit me how to feel compassion for my husband. Altho I don't like what he does, and do still get sucked in and bitch about it, I know he has his own demons.

It's really not about placing blame (guilty feelings?) it is about taking responsibility for yourself now and doing the best you can do to be the best you can be. I wasn't looking to pick apart my parents (well, maybe I was in the beginning What I need to do was figure out what characteristics I brought out of that dysfunction, and what place, if any, they have in my life today as an adult.

I'm sure your father had quite a few of his own demons to deal with considering the situations he was in. And it sounds like your parents loved you very much and did the best they could. Your love for your parents is always going to be there no matter what. Even if you look back there in little bits and pieces.

Hugs,

Morning Glory

12. Adult children of alcoholics are extremely loyal, even in the face of evidence that the loyalty is undeserved.


I've always remembered this characteristic from the day I heard it. It really made me think. Family is extremely important to me and I love my family with all my heart. Keeping the family secrets was also very important. It was never said, but you knew it was a rule and you knew you would be a traitor if you broke the rule.

You didn't even have to speak to break the rule. Just changing your behavior and breaking away from the family system was enough. Having emotional problems was also breaking the rule. A disgrace to the family because you didn't keep it hidden. So any kind of support goes right out the window because they no longer want to be associated to you. What would the neighbors think?

Remaining loyal to the family is different than remaining loyal to the sick system of the family. The problem is that the family can't separate the two so in their eyes you become the traitor. Then the guilt enters in because you are so unstable and there are more of them so you wonder if you are crazy. You question how you could do such a thing. They all must be right. You need them and want to hold on to them, but you know too much now and you can't go back and they won't accept you anymore. In your heart you never let go and never stopped loving them, but you can't fit in.

Now they are faced with what to do with me. They solve the problem by making up who I am. They can't look at the real me because I have become a threat to the family system. They are still protecting it.

I look at two little people every day that don't have to live in that sick system. The only reason they don't have to is because I was able to let go of the loyalty to a sick system. I'm sure my family felt betrayed by me, but I can love them so much more now without blame or resentments most of the time.

Be loyal to the person, not the sickness.

Doppelganger

Thanks for all the wonderful replies, gang. This isn't really an intellectual dilemna, as you know. It's and emotional one. It doesn't FEEL okay to go exploring in this area.

Now I have really glommed onto JT's question... where does the guilt come from? And I think I'll start a new thread.

Dop