LaTeeDa

I decided to respond to this in a new thread so as not to hijack Spirited's thread.

I struggled for many months over the expectations thing. Two things helped me come to grips with it.

1) It's okay to have expectations for roles people play in our lives. The role of husband, mother, friend, boss, etc. all have expectations attached to them. The problem comes in when we have expectations of the individuals in those roles. In essence, when we try to make someone (a human being with free will) fit into our definition of whatever role they play in our life. (Like a square peg in a round hole.) It's essential to find people who see their role in your life much the same way you see it. If not, you can either change the role that person plays in your life (to none if need be) or change your definition of that role. Example: My mother does not fit the role I had in mind for mother. I cannot make her be the kind of mom I want. Therefore, I have accepted her as she is. I have changed what the role of 'my mother' means to me and have found the needs I expected her to meet filled in other ways.

2) I changed my thinking from 'expecting' things to 'preferring' them. It sounds like an insignificant bit of semantics, but the words we use when we talk to ourselves are very powerful. If I expect honesty from someone and they lie to me, I get angry and resentful. If I prefer honesty in people I associate with, then it is a choice of mine to continue to associate with someone who lies. This puts me back in charge of my life and takes me out of the victim mentality.

I hope this helps.

L

suki44883

I saw this in another thread and thought it was very good.

"Our happiness does not rely on relationships changing for the 'better'. The truth is that we can't change other people, and we're not supposed to. What if they never change? What if they're not supposed to change? And if we want to be who we really are, shouldn't we allow them to be who they really are?

Our relationships are not "broken". And that the other people are not being what we want them to be doesn't mean that they are "broken". All relationships are reciprocal, meaning that we mirror our relationship partners. Since like attracts like, we attract what's inside of us.

Looking at the other person keeps us distracted from our real work in the relationship- ourselves. As the saying goes, "How empty of me to be so full of you." The only person we control is our self.. If we work on that person, the circumstances as we see them usually change on their own. This may mean that the relationship is working. Or, it may mean that we see, for the first time, that this relationship doesn't work and it's time for us to move on. It's always and "inside" job."

Still Waters

I'm going to have to call baloney on that one. Used in this context, it means that we are sick inside so we attract those who are also sick. Too many times I've heard stories of married couples, where neither drank, there was no mental illness, etc. Later on in life one starts drinking and off the addiction goes. They may have been "like" in the beginning, but that ended once the addiction took over.

GiveLove

I've wondered about that too, SW. I've always attracted whatever was complementary to the thing I was working through at the time.

At one point in my life, I desperately wanted to be loved by a great-looking guy, and I attracted great-looking guys who thrived on that kind of worship.
At another, I craved stability and safety, and I attracted only men who wanted to play the macho protector role.

In the past dozen years or so, I was developing my self-esteem and self-respect, one block at a time, and I only attracted men who were intrigued by people brave enough to do that kind of inner work.

It's not really a mirror imho. I radiate something, and the signal is picked up by people who need/want that exact something, even if it's just someone else to validate their suffering.

But sorry to hijack your thread, LTD. Expectations have always been such a minefield for me - I'm glad you posted this.

Still Waters

How can I radiate "needs chicken coop built"?

I kid.

On to the expectation thing, it's very true. We constantly set ourselves up for pain when we expect things of others. Not to say that we shouldn't expect anything at all.

I expected the kiddo to have done some chores today while I was out berry picking. She failed to do so, and my expectations weren't met. She expected to be punished if she didn't do her chores, her expectations were met.

Such is life.

MissFixit

How do you ever know if your expectations are too high? I have had two exbf's (one was the A) who told me that my expectations of them were too high. I don't think so.

GiveLove

Not sure, missfixit, but the first thought that came to my mind was this: If we're clear about our expectations, as clear as we CAN be anyway, then it's their choice whether to stick around or not, isn't it?

I know it's not as black-and-white as that, but I've been trying to make my expectations clearer these days in all my relationships, even business, school, everything.

tallulah

Apparently the key to a successful relationship is to go into it with realistic expectations. And the first mistake you can make when entering a relationship is to have ridiculously high expectations of the other. It's perfectly normal to have fantasies about your ideal, but that exact person does not exist outside of the mind. People may come close, but the ideal is a concept and too 'perfect' to ever describe a real person. Damage occurs when the should be becomes a must be.

I think being realistic is truthfully evaluating others and ourselves.

I'd also just like to mention that someone may have realistic expectations and express them openly and honestly to the other... but if the other person is not open and honest about theirs, that is a recipe for disaster too. I know in my situation I was very open about my expectations and hopes for the future and they were realistic and not outlandish at all.... however, time revealed they were not the same as the other person and they were used as a hook.

The ideal is being able to be real with the people in your life. To let them know who you are and how you feel.... and to accept them for who they are etc.. to be authentic with no assumptions or illusory identity they have built around themselves or you. In some cases, I think that 'being real' can get used in a negative way.

gowest

For me I have always had huge problems with my own mother because of her expectations of who I should "be" and what a "daughter" should do did not allow me to actually be who I was around her. It is the initial step of the "if you really loved me you'd be who I want you to be instead of who you are" syndrome.

Her "high expectations" made me feel that I was always failing her no matter how hard I tried. Our relationship finally started down a better path when she was able to express what she wanted from me and I was "allowed" to say "no".

When she realized that me being true to myself was not an active rejection of her love and her wishes things became much easier.

In terms of my relationships with men, it has left me very vocal about the few things I care about. There really aren't many, but they are non-negotiable, as I've realized personally how expectations can mess up a relationship of any kind.

nowwhat

For me, the danger of expectations is that I seem to be willing to change mine, reactively, in order to preserve the safety of having a "partner."

Some expectations need to be in place: the expectation of being treated fairly, honestly. I have found myself increasingly lowering mine by making excuses for the other people in my life (this includes my XAH and my XABF, my parents, my teenage son).

An explanation is not an excuse. I think it's important that I have basic expectations--it's the magical thinking type (I can change this person, another person has the power to control my happiness) that obscure reality and cause so much pain.

MissFixit

These are interesting views. I completely agree about stating your expectations early on. Not I expect this from you.... But rather, this is how I am (which you will see over time) and I am comfortable with this....(which I can observe over time).

I tend to be a very forthright person. I try to be tactful, but beleive the honesty is the most important thing in any relationship. The two men I dated for years I had been pals with for a long time before dating and we knew each other well. They stated their wants and I stated mine. Each one was in total agreement at the time we dated about what we wanted, and then as the years went on (one for 7-8 yrs and the other for 4 yrs), we would still agree about our wants/future but in the long run neither one acted in support of this future.

THis is where I am saddling up my high horse (haha), but I followed through with everything we agreed upon in both relationships. I looked at them as commitments I made to them, me and "our" future families. Neither man executed on promises made to me, friends and family. I waited for YEARS for each man and I think that waiting is where I made a HUGE error. I am not a "pushy", "I need to be married yesterday" kind of person and I was never pressing about that, but beleived each when they said we were working towards that.

Each man got engaged to a woman he had known for 3 months either after or during (the A) our relationships. I feel like there is something wrong with my expectations or lack of aggressiveness, but I really don't see what it is. This is a MAJOR insecurity of mine. I do not know (other than picking men who are too old for me 14 and 12 years older) how my expectations are off.

LTD, I just completely hijacked your thread. Sorry and I will stop ranting now.

Smiles,

Miss

Ago

The thing about expectations that is so disastrous is being unaware that we have them. We do nice things for people in our lives and then we expect them to meet whatever "needs" we have that might come up.

Whether we need people to be supportive, a wonderful mate....or even just "normal".

A world full of people running around with a secret agenda so secret they don't even know it they have it.

This illusion is so pervasive it goes unseen. It's like we live in a forest and ask "what trees?" when we are surrounded by them. I think a better name for codependency would actually be "unfulfilled expectations and how we go about trying to get them met"

This is where it gets tricky, because ultimately it becomes about control.

A friend's truck broke down in San Francisco, where his Sister lives and brother works. (he lives 150 miles away)

The truck ultimately ended up getting towed "because his family wouldn't help him, they 'let him down' when he needed it the most" He was frustrated beyond belief, and in his rant was all "the things he does for them". Since he had done so many things for his siblings over the years (helping them move, building their decks etc etc and he has done a ton of nice things for them) the moment he had expectations of them helping him all those things he had done became "favor chits" leading him to have unreasonable expectations of them.

He literally doesn't see how that (helping them) becomes about control. He believes with all of heart and soul that they should have helped him when he needed it because of "everything he's done for them" and is now incredibly upset with them.

Anyhow, the two most difficult concepts I have explaining to those around me that don't already "get it" are "acceptance" and "expectations".

an amazingly high number of things we do are are actually "gifts with strings" that always lead us to have expectations which invariably lead to resentment in one form or another.

We are kind, courteous and respectful and then expect that in return from those around us. We work hard and then expect to be recognized and compensated for our hard work. we are nice, loving and understanding in relationships and expect that in return from our partners.

That's why it's written "virtue is it's own reward", because when it becomes "gifts with strings" it's no longer virtue or even "love", it's our way of trying to control the world around us and the people in it. It's my opinion this is the very foundation of codependency. It's similar to "treason never prospers, because with prosperity it ceases to be treason".

Virtue is behaving this way with no expectations of those around us.

I believe many people won't agree with this, but I suggest you look at the evidence. Take a look at your own life. What have you been upset about? What is it that upsets you the most about the alcoholic in your life?

I would say just about every single one of us got here as a result of unrealistic expectations. They are unrealistic because they weren't met. They seem reasonable, because it's what we would do in that situation. We expect those around us to share our morals and "value systems"

I think they seem fair, and we try to be realistic, but the truth is, any expectation of another human being is recipe for disaster, especially practicing alcoholics. It seems realistic but since it doesn't happen it's not. Reality is what actually takes place while we try to get our "needs" met, and then when they aren't, we end up upset.

An expectation is just a resentment waiting to happen.

Every time.

My behavior leads directly to my expectations, so that's where I try to head it off at the pass.

What lead me to learn this about myself was the exercise of doing something for another human being for thirty days and if anyone finds out about it, even the person you are doing something nice for, it doesn't count.

Want to learn some amazing facts about yourself? try it for thirty days. I learned that 99% of my actions were dictated by those around me and I didn't even know. That those qualities I viewed as "virtue" and "integrity" were in fact ways in which I was trying to control the world around me.

I was "virtuous" and had "integrity" because that's what I wanted from those around me, I had to change my view and approach with those qualities to make them be about me, not to control the world around me.

Virtue truly is it's own reward.

Still Waters

It occurs to me that many of us living with alcoholics or addicts tend to have a very low level of expectations.

I expect him to not pee in the trash can, for instance.

Shouldn't many of us be raising our level of expectations?

Ago - Life is a set of rewards. You study hard in school, you make good grades, you get that scholarship. You work hard in your field of employment, you make good money, you get promoted.

We have a perfectly normal set of expectations that we rely on every single day of our lives. It's not surprising that this rolls over into our relationships with others.

DesertEyes

Wonderful thread, here's my .02

What works for me is to have expectations about _me_, and not expectations about other people.

I expect myself to be firm with my "boundaries" and "consequences", and that means that I don't _need_ to have expectations about other people. Whatever they do, or don't do, I know what I will do to protect my own needs. I no longer need to worry about them and their issues.

My g/f is a member of various recovery programs. There is the possibility that she may relapse. Or not. That is none of my business because my expectation is that _I_ will end the relationship if she relapses. I have no expectations of _her_, only of me.

'course, it's not that easy and simple. I think if she ever did relapse I'd have to go running to my sponsor and lots of meetings in order to "fuel up on serenity" and be able to stick to my boundaries.

Mike

MissFixit

HI,

How is one ever supposed to rely on others in a relationship of any kind without expectations? I expect my partner, sister, boss, etc.. to be honest with me. If they are not, then I prefer to move on. If I decide that I value the relationship and second chances (my ex) then I give him one (or 1000000 in that case). The second chance thing seems to be the issue.

However, no one is perfect so where do you draw the line with second chances?

DesertEyes

Hello there MissFixit

I do it backwards. I have learned in al-anon that people must _first_ earn my trust with actions. _After_ they have proven themselves with behavior I can then _begin_ to trust them. That way I don't _start_ with expectations, I start with an open mind.

For me it depends on the specifics of the "chance". Which is what boundaries are all about. My boundary is that if my g/f cheats on me the consequence is that the relationship is done. _No_ second chances. None. If she makes a commitment to pick me up at a doctors office and shows up a half hour late cuz she forgot then she gets a second chance to show her reliability in other areas. The boundary is that I won't sit around all day waiting for a ride, I'll get on my cell and call somebody else to come get me. The consequence is that my trust in her in that particular area will need some re-building.

What al-anon has taught me about relationships is that at one extreme are the deal-breakers, such as cheating. At the other extreme are trivial things that don't matter, and in between there's a ton of "shades of gray" that I am going to have to learn to balance in a _healthy_ way. I can't just draw a line that applies to all situations. I have to work out each boundary in a way that balances my needs.

That's why I go to lots of meetings, read al-anon literature, sponsor people, hang out with my sponsor and here on SR. I am learning from everybody else's experience and applying their lessons to my needs.

Mike

MissFixit

Thanks Mike!

I wish I had come here to ask questions 2-3 years ago. I would have saved myself a lot of original research pain.

Miss

Jadmack25

I started off with what I believe were reasonable expectations in my marriage and for 20 years these were all met. Over the last 7 years they weren't and I guess I lowered them to suit for a while, until I finally gave up and left him to his preferred way of life.

I had not so high ones when I became involved with my ABF, because I knew he was an alcoholic in recovery, but I did have hope. Took a few months and he quit the program and since then it has been 18 years of the Not-so-Merry-Go-Round of being with an on again, off again drinker. The last 5 years have been sheer hell, and I felt trapped and totally beyond making any decisions or taking action to get out of the misery. The only expectations I had for a lot of that time, were very low, s**t ones, and that is exactly what I got.

Things are going well right now, with sobriety and program for him, and me doing what I needed to do. He is not in the same rotten moods of past sobriety periods, and has put real effort into his recovery this time, and I feel strong in myself. My expectations apart from those regarding common courtesy, respect, honesty and caring for each other, are for myself. I expect to have respect for myself, to take care of me and my needs and to be able to defend my boundaries against attackers in the future.

My life no longer revolves around him or his moods etc. I KNOW that if he goes off the rails again, he will be on his own for good, because I am not losing myself again.

May not happen at all, but I am very well prepared in case it does.

God bless

LaTeeDa

I spent over 20 years of my adult life doing this, and never had a clue I was doing it.

This is where it helps me to reframe 'expectations' into 'preferences.' If I prefer to be treated in a nice, loving, understanding manner, but I'm not, then I can move one. If I expect it, I waste years of my life trying to force someone else to treat me the way I want.

Thank you for responding Ago. This is a topic of recovery that was/is so hard to wrap my head around. Your words really help.



L

TakingCharge999

Thanks to everyone for this thread.

LTD, I have re-phrased my words to "I prefer for you to come at this time of the day" or "I would prefer if..." and it feels so different!

"I expect you to do this" sounds so controlling and inappropiate now.

Thanks for giving me so much food for thought.