dothi

An update for those of you who read my last post... and just ranting, really.

I spoke with my codie mom for the first time since my thesis defense. My sister gave me a head's up - she warned me that mom is almost impossible to talk to. She was. She has just replayed an incident my AF played with my sister just a few years ago. At some point my AF decided to buy my sister a car. He didn't consult her - jut went ahead, bought it, and expected her to be grateful. He did not consult or ask her opinion; he just decided for her what she needed. Of course she was pissed (she and her opinions in this house have only been neglected for years now). We tried to explain to him (as he started feeling sorry for himself, the victim once again) that he needs to talk to us before trying to make major financial decisions for us. And I'm not talking about a nice new reliable car; I'm talking about a second hand junker that's going to have its problems and maintenance costs, i.e. a considerable financial decision.

Well guess what my mom tried to do for my sister this weekend? Without asking/consulting/respecting her/her wishes, my mom attempted to give my sister a second hand car. Of course, once again, my sister was pissed - not at the car(which does sound more reliable), but because she was so ignored in this decision AGAIN. I can't help but picture my AF standing there with my mom, egging her on to buy this car, knowing full-well how it was going to play out. It's the alcoholism tightening its reins. My lost middle child sister looks like the psycho selfish b&%ch, AF and codie mom are both victims, a wedge is driven between mom and my sister, and AF's existence continues unfettered. At least, that's how I see it now.

re: mom. I just don't know how to describe her. It's like she's regressed to a child's mentality. She sounded just as stupid as AF does, acting like she doesn't really understand what she did wrong. I don't understand. How can they ignore our feelings this much? What is wrong with my family? How can they be this sick??? It felt like I was talking to a stranger the entire time. Not one question about me - my life post-thesis, my new job, how my partner is doing, nothing. It was all about her. And that's what it was like at my thesis defense. She was happy for me yes, but the entire time I visited with her it was all about her. I actually felt relieved when she left because her visits were so draining. I didn't mind at the time; I thought it would be worth what it was taking out of me.

Every instinct in my body is telling me not to trust her anymore. My sister and I have already endured years of my mom egging us on to confront our AF, promising to back us up, only to watch her take his side in an argument. When I saw her at my thesis defense, I really believed that there was a chance she would leave AF and finally begin to recover. It was monumental for me to trust that she would come alone and keep it a secret from AF. Now it's hard to say.

re: brother. With whom I've always had a good relationship with. My sister had a chance to talk to him this weekend, and ask why he never visited me at my defense (I contacted him via msn the month before and we agreed on a day to meet). He claims to be angry at me that I didn't do enough to remind him about my thesis defense. He's also angry that I hurt AF by not coming home to visit. From my sister's account, he sounds just like AF. He's another great big victim. I know what will happen if I try to contact him, so I think I'll just leave that alone for now.

The only positive to come out of this is my sister; she said she finally understands why I'm so angry at them all the time. This past weekend's visit she saw how it was affecting her; how it changes her personality when she is in this environment. They don't listen. They never learn. They repeatedly ignore our feelings/opinions/lives over and over again, and that because we're family it's okay. It's okay to ignore the people you "love". Only in my family... (ACoAs, you know what I mean )

Right now I don't think I can see my family again. If I can help it, I will never see my AF again until it is time to bury him. I am being weighed down by so much frustration, and that weight is pushed back on even harder with every contact. Would it be prudent to cut my mom from my life at this point?

worthyoflove

Dothi,

I don't know why, but I busted out laughing when I read your post. I guess it's because the craziness is so crazy in a dysfunctional family that when you take a step back it seems comical. When I look at my own family and some of the stuff that has gone on I start laughing out loud. It is so ridiculous to see it from a different view. Maybe I'm losing my mind. Hang in there.

worthy

GiveLove

Dothi,

There's nothing I could say that you don't already know.

I'd only suggest you ask yourself: If you were to detach further from your mother and take a break from contact, what would be the benefits (to you) of doing that? What would be the downside? Two-column lists in my journal help me a lot, simplistic as they may seem.

Would you still be getting blow-by-blow news from your sister? Can you set a boundary that you really don't want to hear about her car saga any more? (is it helping you to be emotionally involved in that? how does 'who gets what from who and why and how and who was consulted' help YOU move forward with your own happiness? you're not in that picture )

Maybe you need a family vacation. As in: a vacation from your family.

I did this for a couple of years and found it really helped clarify my boundaries around family. I've been able to maintain healthy boundaries ever since...I needed that break to be able to step back and see what I was allowing myself to get caught up in.

And it's okay to do that. Honest it is.

Rebecca4

If the car is not liked or appreciated, it does not have to be used does it? C
I don't know if I hae not understood your post, but I feel a bit sorry for the AF. He bought a car as a gift.
Can your sister afford her own nice new car?

I was ignored when a family friend was inappropriate sexually when I was 11. I think that was a case of my feelings and opinions not been consulted. Buying a car as an unwanted gift seems a little bit different, just my view.

I'm sorry if I have misunderstood.

GingerM

Dothi,

As a very wise person on this board recently told me (back-channel) - it is possible to have limited contact. To have contact only when you're ready for it and on your terms. It doesn't have to be "full contact at their whim" or "no contact at all".

That being said, I'm glad your sister is now coming to see things a bit more clearly - it helps to have someone from the same family notice that proverbial elephant, and be able to talk to them about it.

And don't forget - YOU'RE not the big meanie if you made prince(ss) psycho cry.

Freedom1990

Aren't dysfunctional family dynamics great?! Sigh. My mom will be the first to tell you we're a happy family like the Cleavers. She's June, Dad's Ward, well you get the idea.

I have limited contact with my mother. I have to for my own sanity.

Dad is usually easier to deal with, but if there is a tiff in the family, he backs Mom up because he has to live with her.

He's often said she's a martyr and has already earned her place in heaven.

I guess she doesn't realize there are no medals for martyr-dom.

Their support of my current college endeavor waxes and wanes. I tried to share with them how difficult this past semester was, and I did get two incompletes to finish over the summer.

So Dad asks me last time I saw him if I was 'back to' hitting the books again.

He didn't hear a word I had said about the semester. I never quit hitting the books. I was swimming upstream from day 1 because I had major surgery less than two weeks before the semester started. The harder I tried, the further behind I fell.

I have so many supportive friends both in recovery and elsewhere who are cheering me on during this completion of the degree. I've decided it's just not in my best interest to discuss college with either of my folks.

I'm usually pretty good at detaching and accepting that my parents will never be what I want them to be, but every once in awhile I emotionally engage more than I know I should, and have expectations on their reactions. That always creates pain for me.

You've gotten some good suggestions.

:ghug :ghug

dothi

WOL: No offense taken, lol. It is crazy-making, and it's time to detach further... again.

Rebecca: My perspective... Why does he have to buy the car if he knows the person doesn't want it or force his financial decisions on his children? Why do we have to be guilted by his victimhood into accepting gifts/arrangements we've expressed not wanting? This is not the first financial decision he's tried to make for his kids (there's been other things like rent and cell phones); the car is the largest $$$ example. Don't quite know how else to explain it.

GingerM: lol, seriously my AF = psycho princess.

Freedom: I 100% hear what you're saying about your dad not hearing one word of what you've said. I hear the precautions about having expectations, but come on! - basic listening skills are not an unreasonable expectation. :uzi2:
Augh - it's just too crazy-making to not have an effect.

Quote:

I'm usually pretty good at detaching and accepting that my parents will never be what I want them to be, but every once in awhile I emotionally engage more than I know I should, and have expectations on their reactions. That always creates pain for me.

Thanks for that. I think that's what's happened here. I got my hopes so high about my mom, developed fairly high expectations in a hurry, and now just feel frustrated with how much of my time she wasted at what should have been a me-centered visit. All that talk of leaving and change, all that hype... what for? Attention???

GiveLove: I really needed the reminders. I've been sucked so far back in my anger that it's hard to think clearly, and have been in a bad place over it for the past couple days. I will sit down and write that pro/con list. The first con will be to let go of the pipedream I had when I invited my mom and sister to visit me on this this of the country this summer. The first pro will be protecting my well-being.

Yes, a family vacation is a good idea... and maybe a counsellor this fall :P I'm just not ready to have contact without getting sucked into the drama/responsibility mindset/high expectations. I guess I just hadn't really faced how much my mom has actively played her role in all this.

Just can't believe how blind I would still be if I had never moved away. Thanks again everyone - your replies are all greatly appreciated

ICant

dothi
I understand why you are angry. Expensive items (I will not call it a gift) that come with strings attached. Later it will be paid for with manipulation from AF - If it wasn't for me, you wouldn't be able to drive around blah blah
My father tried to control me with money.

GingerM

I wonder if it's something in the seasonal change. I also recently back-slid into some old patterns and got thrown off kilter by it. And I'm usually pretty good at managing to stay detached.

As for reminders, it helped me a lot to go to the stickies at the top and re-read them - especially the Bill of Rights ("I have the right to not participate in the crazy making behaviors of my family").

My backsliding made me have to reaffirm a few boundaries, and that, of course, was met with more resistance.

As for the car, it is very easy to refuse a car. If they bought it, it's registered in their name - refuse to register it, and they're stuck with it. Refuse to drive it and they're stuck with it. I can't remember how many times I've had to refuse gifts like this - using the "technically, you bought it and it's yours to do with what you please, however, I'm not interested, so you'll have to find something else to do with it" line. Money = control in my FoO also.

I'm not sure if this will make you feel better or not Dothi, but after my last slip up, I went back to see a therapist because I couldn't seem to dig myself out of my hole. My therapist made the suggestion that rather than setting limits for *them*, I set limits for *me* (those limits could be "I will not talk to my A more than once per week, and then only if I am certain I am in a good mental place to deal with it" or "I will not answer the phone, I will initiate the calls myself so that I have time to mentally prepare before speaking" or "If they call at a bad time, I am allowed 2 sentences and only 2 sentences to get them back off the phone.") In this way, the observing of the boundary doesn't involve their cooperation, only yours. It might work with your sister and the car. "I will not accept gifts that I have blatantly indicated I did not want in the first place." She could even tell them that she's made a promise to herself to not accept gifts she doesn't want. If they say it's dumb, she can repeat that she made a promise to herself.

Much empathy from me on this. And more importantly, I am terribly sorry that their behavior is going to stick with you for a very very long time when you "remember back when I defended my thesis" - this will probably be the strongest and most lasting memory. And that's really very sad. ((hugs)) if you want 'em.

tromboneliness

Heh... My dad keeps trying to throw a Corvette at me -- and before y'all jump in and offer to take it off my hands, let me say that I am considering taking it at some point, if I can figure out where to park it (my city has a blanket ban on overnight on-street parking -- I kid you not).

(Yes, my dad is 89, and yes, the car he was driving when his license was finally taken away last year was a Corvette. He and my mom both drove them, in fact, so he's got two parked in the garage now.)

The main reason he's tried to get me and my wife to take the car is so that one of us could come running whenever he needs something (we live an hour's drive away, just across the state line -- that was an attempt to set a boundary, but obviously it doesn't get observed ).

The thing about elderly parents is that the older they get, the more it becomes ALL about them, and none about you. Your (that is, my) role in life is to serve them, as payback for all the [koff] wonderful things they did in raising you. None of us needs to be reminded that all of that is complete BS -- but that's how they think. Whenever anything happens, it's all about what can you do for them. Why don't you call, why don't you come by more often, I don't need anything but I need company, etc., etc., etc.

Still, if you see me driving a Vette at some point, I never said I was consistent, did I....?

T

Freedom1990

No, basic listening skills are not an unreasonable expectation if you're dealing with emotionally healthy people!

That's what kept me banging my head against the wall for so long. I was trying to view dysfunctional, emotionally unhealthy people (ie, my parents) as quite the opposite!

With my friends in recovery, I do find respect, basic listening skills, etc because these people are on the same path as me, to improve our own lives and heal within.

It's hard not to turn to our parents, regardless of our age, with expectations they will treat us as adults!

I'm getting much better at it, though occasionally I touch the hot stove and get burnt!

:ghug :ghug

GingerM

Or as my therapist has reminded me several times recently: "So you're trying to reason with an inherently unreasonable person?"

Yeah, it doesn't work so well.

GiveLove

Agreed.

I'm having an interesting out-of-body experience around listening.

I have a brother who is mentally ill (paranoid schizophrenic) and who is living in a group home. He has no long term memory, and not much short-term either. So a few weeks ago, we broke the news to him that our older sister had died due to her alcoholism (he's an alcoholic too).

He nodded, asked a few questions, and then asked for her phone number. We told him the story again, explained it thoroughly.
A couple of weeks ago he called, again asking for her number, and I told him again, "No, hon, she's gone - she's dead - she has no phone number."
Yesterday he phoned again, asking for her phone number. Needed to talk to her, to tell her not to drink any more.
And so on.

Now aside from the general insanity of that little story, it occurred to me that it's exactly like what it felt like when I tried to have rational connections with the rest of my family.

I: "This is wrong, this is hurtful, I don't want you to do this any more."
They: "What?"
I: "Your actions, doing this and this and this."
They: "Why are you hurting our feelings??? What's wrong with you?"
I: "Stop it"
They: "Stop what?"

In this case, releasing ALL expectations of rational, civilized behavior was my ticket out of crazyville.

At least until next week's phone call. And at least I know what's coming then.

Dothi, you're an amazing woman. I'm sorry your hopes got dashed, but maybe you can build some new ones on the foundation you just scraped them off of. Only this time the new ones can be something you can control.

Hugs and strength to you, friend.


GL

guiab

My experience is a little different as my parents died long ago (before I was 26) and my dad used 'reason' instead of guilt to manipulate.

He looked at any reluctance to accept a gift as 'stupid', 'idiotic', 'totally senseless', ect. One could never argue about feelings with him. Emotions never made a good argument against his 'cold hard logic' (gift = free = no cost benefit = end of dispute) as one had to explain in defensible detail the source of the emotion. That is kind of hard to do as a kid. An unspoken part of his argument was that he would be forgiven the many many nights of bitter drunken vicious verbal attacks on his whole family. Gifts were sort of a combination of payoff and indebtedness. My mom was, in a way, the exact opposite - she insisted she was 100% hopeless and wouldn't listen to any arguement otherwise. What a crazy house!

What I am saying is it is nearly impossible to argue, as GL so well demonstrated (hilariously, I might add ), with dysfunctional people. The time to stop talking is when WE start to become dysfunctional.

And it is really really hard not to get one's hopes up for a 'loved' one who has occasionally showed signs of improvement. How many movies have we seen where a loved one is saved just before disaster?? We all want to be part of a rescue. Yet, one thing that has been drilled into my head by a multitude of first aid and rescue training courses is that the rescuer has to FIRST and ALWAYS consider their own safety. Thus we carry breathing masks and vinyl gloves, and we look for the poisonous snake that caused the problem in the first place.

Dothi, maybe you should don a surgical mask and gloves the next time you talk to your parents on the phone - as in 'must have barriers'.

(thanks Ginger!)
Oh, how I wish upon a big mother of all shining stars that I know this advice when I was an early adult and trying to sort out my relationship with my dad. I would call these Rules of Engagement.

tromboneliness

Both of these have a lot of relevance for me, with my dad. He would argue, "Hey, I'm giving you the car -- I'll even pay for the insurance and whatever else you want me to pay for, so you can have it. It makes no sense for you not to take it, because it's a gift that costs you nothing -- how can you do better than that?" And -- well, strictly taken on those terms, I can't argue about that... heh, I've got a degree in accounting, so it's not that I don't understand the value of a dollar. But it's not about dollars -- it's about the fact that I'm 46 years old, married, and out here on my own. That is the part that my dad does not understand, so there's no point in discussing it.

(Of course, by the same token, I could turn it around and say, "Hey, Dad, why the h3ll do you insist on staying in that 3200-square-foot house in the outer suburbs, which you bought in 1964 because the town had a great school system? It's no place for an 89-year-old who can't drive anymore -- you should move to assisted living." That is just as logical/rational as his argument about why I should take the car -- and just as unlikely to be listened to. So there! )

As for getting hopes up, that's my sister's role -- the world's biggest people-pleaser. She called last night and said, "For a few days on my last visit, Dad wasn't drinking, and it was amazing how focused and sharp he was. Even at 89, he's still totally sharp, when he's sober. Wouldn't it be great if we could make him stay that way?" I don't think she detected my eye-roll from 3,000 miles away, but it was there!

T

GingerM

For exactly this reason, I can't tell you how pleased I am that the video phone never really fully caught on.

Wascally Wabbit

Amen. I learned that sick people stay sick. I don't want to be around their sickness, drama, chaos, etc.
My mom pushed me for years to move in with me. She tried guilt trips from hell and acting like she was going to die any day.

I kept coming here getting help. While I still have difficulty with her, I do know that I couldn't take a daily dose of her paranoid, controlling behavior. The best thing for me is to have limited contact. I call her, but I don't want to see her very much. It's sad, but, her behavior is a problem for me. It makes me crazy. I have worked hard to get to the point where I am not crazy too.

martha27

Reading this thread was an amazing experience for me, the heavens opened and the light shone down. I am now 15 days sober on my third attempt, which I believe will be successful, for the very reason that I have been able to identify my drinking pattern and causes. I have finally faced up to the truth of my alcoholic, dysfunctional, narcistic mother and dysfunctional father. It has been really painful finally accepting that I cannot have a normal relationship with them and as you have said here, I sometimes have expectations of support or a normal exchange, when this happens I usually get very hurt, I have learnt to limit my expectations, this has been a very sad decision and I have really let go of the child within me wanting a mother, I have decided to grow up and face the truth, it has been sad, but I finally feel in control and I need to be as my mother is an extremely nasty drunk. I just felt so alone until I read this thread, I want to really really thank you from the bottom of my heart. I am normal, I can do this, other people have the same problems....phew

martha27

p.s. I am so sorry to highjack this thread, I did not mean to!

Dothi I can hear the frustration and despair in your voice, and I have felt that so many times with my own family. With my mother I feel like I am talking swahili and then she makes me feel odd and strange, I have to hang on like crazy to the knowledge that I am the only one that is sane. It is incredibly frustrating, unhealthy, sad and a bit demented to keep trying to have 'normal' realationships with people that are just not capable of having them, or even worse don't want to have a normal relationship with us.

I thought the responses in this thread were some of the best pieces of advice I have heard and I really got a lot out of this thread in terms of boundries, protecting ourselves, expectations etc, thats why i got a bit excited and exploded!!

Good Luck Dothi, I wish you all the strength, sanity and love that you will need to get to a good place, either by yourself ir with you family. BIG LOVE x:You_Rock

GiveLove

((( martha27 )))

Congrats on your sobriety!! Hope to see more of you here...we all have so much in common...