benham

Hey everybody.

My AW has been sober for about 2 and a half months. She achieved this through her desire and through an inpatient program. She is now in an outpatient program at the same place. We live in a very strong AA place...over the course of a week there are 40 meetings taking place which I consider good based on the size of the city we live in. On the other hand, there are only two Al-anon meetings. I work nights Monday-Thursday so I can only go to one of those two meetings thanks to a concession by my employer. I show up late to work on Tuesdays after the Al-anon meeting. I've been to enough meetings by now that I hope that I can get a sponsor...but other men attending that particular meeting are few and far between. I do know I like the meetings because I have found out how sick I have become. After reading the thread about co-dependency, I've finally been able to put a name to the level of sickness. I am a codependent. When she was still actively using, I would walk on eggshells and try to avoid conflict because I thought everything would smooth over. Now, over the past week or so, I did the exact same thing. Basically, I could tell she was starting to become guarded around me, and so in "retaliation" I would become guarded around her. This meant ignoring her passive-aggressively. What I should have done and wished that I did was confront her about it and find out the reason. To be honest with her.
I want to be honest with her, and I want this relationship to work out if it is meant to. I know that I'm on the backburner for a while as she works her program, but it's confusing and frustrating when she gets mad that I'm not paying attention to her when she's not paying attention to me either!

Enough rambling for a bit. Basically, how do I keep recovering? I think I hit a wall in Al-anon without finding a sponsor who shows up every week like me. I could keep working the program by myself, but I can just see myself trying to lie or falsify stuff and smooth it over so that I can achieve a step.
Also, how can I restart communication? Due to our jobs, we will be unable to truly communicate until Friday evening. (She works during the day, me at night...she's at outpatient or meetings during my break where I can call her...etc). Basically, the best we can do until Friday is email, text message or written notes/letters. Thanks for your help.

Barbara52

Recovery is certainly possible without AlAnon. I have never been to a meeting and I think I'm doing quite well. The route I took involved a few therapy sessions, lots of reading and lots of ruthless self examination and internalizing of my reading.

GiveLove

benham,

Have you thought about working with a counselor who has experience with codependency? I know that was so very, very, very helpful for me, and I could make appointments when they worked for me.

I also made a daily date with myself to keep reading al-anon literature, codependent no more, (have you read it?) and other supportive stuff. I kept a journal, and that helped too.

There are lots of ways to continue getting well. Coming here and reading helps me too - especially the stickies.

Hang in there, you're doing the right things

GL

isurvived

I agree with Barbara. While an attendee of Alanon in prior years, the resources I have used to help me on my recovery are the same...private counseling, lots of reading, and lots and lots of self-examination.

Venues such as these forums are very similar to an Alanon meeting really... lots of input, a place to share your concerns — all which you can take what you like and leave the rest.

benham

Thanks a lot. I really think that I need to find a program and stick to it. I'm very thankful that I can take off of work to go to the Tuesday meeting, but at the same time, those are hours that I'm not on the clock. I hope that an internship or something can eventually come up where I can work and school during the day and get my evenings again, but these are the cards I'm dealt. I found that book at the library so I'm about to go and check it out to see what it's like. When I can get the money I will more than likely buy it. I will reconsider counseling too.

If you feel communication getting off track, what are things that you can do to get it back? Like I could tell when she was starting to protect herself and only have superficial conversations with me and I was either too scared or whatever to say something about it. Does anybody else experience this? Thanks.

faith2overcome

Actually, I'm on the other end of the spectrum...I have codependent tendencies like you, and my husband is an alcoholic, but I am the one who feels more distant with conversation, etc... I think it's because I got so fed up to where I just didn't want to try anymore. We went through a period of separation, and now that he is making strong recovery attemps, I have let him back in. When he came back, it was like he picked up where he left off...wanted to be affectionate and close. I felt strange because of all that time apart and time to myself. I was the one who lost the desire to communicate and be emotionally attached. I am still wrestling with it. I don't want to appear unsupportive to his recovery attempts and seem like I'm shutting him out; I guess I'm just still apprehensive about his recovery. Basically, as the one who has become quiet, the best thing I can tell you is to just be patient with her and keep trying politely to keep communication open from your end. Make yourself open to her even if she doesn't appear receptive at first; just be careful not to "smother" her if she doesn't seem to be ready to connect right now. It might slowly sort itself out...I'm getting a little closer with AH. If you really feel like you're slipping further apart, try to organize some quality time, even as a surprise. Maybe each Friday you could go out somewhere to have a little fun and stay connected...play mini-golf, see a movie, go out to dinner, get ice cream, etc. If all else fails, couples counseling is a safe outlet for you to both vocalize feelings and should help with communication.

benham

We went to a family program meeting yesterday for her outpatient. During the meeting, her counselor asked me directly if I am going to Al-anon. Telling the truth, I said no. At the end of the meeting, my AW quickly left the meeting and got to her car as fast as possible. After texting her and her calling me back, I found out she was mad at me. She doesn't like me going to these meetings because she says I'm one person here, and another person at home. I found out that she only invited me because her counselor told her to. I know it may be a crutch, but a lot of what happens at these meetings are Q&A interaction between us as a couple and the counselor. That's my forte as far as being honest. I can easily answer a question honestly. This would be an unhealthy way to do it, but if she asked me questions about how I felt about something, I could easily talk with her honestly until the sun came up the next day. That would make me the same person at home as at these meetings. I don't lie to her at home, but we haven't really had an honest conversation yet either. She's also accusing me of lying to her about Al-Anon. That ticked me off so bad. At no point did I lie to her about it but on the other hand, I didn't tell her that I stopped going. Until yesterday I didn't know that she even cared one way or another about it. I told her that it isn't helping right now, so I'm going to do what I can on my own. I have the literature, etc. If I can find a job where I don't have to take off work to go to an Al-Anon meeting, I would go every week.

Basically, we are in a mini-fight, but I don't feel the doom and gloom like I used to with past ones. She told me that she doesn't trust me, which hurts. At the same time, she's JUSTIFIED TO FEEL LIKE THAT based on what I have done in the past. But that brings me back to the hurt/anger because that's what I did in the PAST. It seems like anytime I do something she doesn't like she wants to find a way to fit it with how I used to be. I want an opportunity to honestly tell her about all of this, but what are some ways that you guys initiate one of those conversations? I know that I can't rely on her to initiate this one, and to be honest...I never have in the past. Right now, it is like staring at a huge wall and I don't know what's on the other side. I also feel myself worrying about what's on the other side of the wall once I get the strength to climb it. Is it something good (candy?) or is there a hungry lion over there waiting for me to jump down? Thanks for your help.

bluejay6

She sure is sounding like an addict, Benham. She is accusing YOU of having a double personality (addict), lying (addict), being untrustworthy (addict).......She is projecting her sh** all over you and getting away with it.

It is much much too early to be working on the relationship. You need emotional DISTANCE right now and for the next several months, with each of you working your own programs of recovery, agreeing to be respectful to each other as you do that, and making a plan to come together in, say, six to nine months to assess the relationship issues and begin the long work of repairing the massive structural damage to your marriage.

Texts and emails and voice mails seems pretty safe to me, right now, and could keep you both from overreacting and exploding at each other, which the ADDICTION will LOVE. Believe me, it has its fingers crossed you will both create massive chaos, split, and return to a worse misery than ever before (including her relapse).

I agree with the above that a solid commitment to one on one counseling for codependency for you while she focuses on her recovery and its attendant highs and lows could be your salvation.
It will be very important that neither of you invades the other's recovery progress.

Two good books: Reclaim Your Family From Addiction (Nakken). And if you can find it, The Booze Battle (Maxwell). Both will help you take the long view.

Good luck and all the very best and everyone is here for you!

benham

I see that. Especially after reading what I wrote back to me. She's choosing to drive to see her brother graduate, so I'll have some time this weekend to have fun.
The university I go to offers counseling so I'm going to do that. I think they don't start up until the Fall, but I'll check in on that.

I think this is why I chose to become so angry. I wanted to so bad take control of her recovery program, but I chose not to. Part of me still wants to do it, still wants that control. She has to do a "90 in 90" commitment with AA and I had a picture in my mind that she would tell her counselor that she completed it, and I would be sitting behind my AW with a checklist nodding to the counselor because I kept track! But no, I don't check up to see if she's doing it or not. I ask for the same respect from her, and not to get so angry when I do something that's outside of "her idea" for my recovery. One thing I thought about last night while at work was I used to care that she would be able to see the change in me. No longer. I now care that I see the change in me and that's it. I'm going to become a better person with the help of my recovery program and the addict can choose whatever she wants to but it won't stop me. I'm tired of being who I used to be, it never worked.

Man this place is great.

gowest

I can offer up some of my experience with this issue.

I always had trouble initiating the conversations or speaking my mind about what I wanted to a partner because I, like you, was afraid of what would happen (what was on the other side of the wall). Would they be mad? Would they not love me? Would they leave me?

Once a long time ago I was involved with some one I couldn't really "have" ever. (This was before I understood that you can't "have" anybody, only yourself) I'm not going to go into all the details but it taught me a really important lesson.

Because I knew that I couldn't "have" this person (control the relationship?) it gave me the freedom for the first time in my life to ask for what I needed and talk openly and honestly about everything and anything.

Really what did I have to lose? Nothing! I didn't "have" them.
So I took the plunge ... it was terrifying.

I would stand in front of them and the inside of my head would be saying over and over "remember you don't "have" them, so you have nothing to lose, speak your mind"

I couldn't have much of what I wanted BUT I was able to speak my mind freely. I was heard and I was able to listen. It was such a good lesson. Such a gift.

In truth, we never will be able to "have" or "control" anybody so it is always possible to start those hard conversations even if we fear the outcome.

I would say it is very important to start these talks with "I need/would like ..." vs "You need to do ..."

We often don't ask for what we need out of fear of losing the other person.

If we don't ask for what we need we lose ourselves and that is just so much worse.

GiveLove

Ain't it, though?

You're growing by leaps and bounds, benham. Keep focusing on your own recovery, and let her focus on hers.

benham

To "have" her. Wow. I feel like that's replaced my obsession with her addiction. I don't want her to leave me, but more than that...I'm afraid of giving love and not getting any back. I remember reading The Canterbury Tales in high school and there was a story about a husband that loves his wife but doesn't know what she's doing behind his back. If I remember right, that's the meaning of the word "cuckold". A lot of this is the source of my desire for control in the relationship.

I don't "have" her. If anything else, she is in the care of her HP who does a hell of a better job than I ever can

TakingCharge999

benham, hi and welcome to SR again, I am glad you are here

"I'm afraid of giving love and not getting any back."

I read somewhere: "when there is love there is no need and all is balanced".

If you give love it is because you want to. If you give love so others love you, you are set up for frustration! and your joy is always in the hands of someone else's will... don't you think that is a very fragile place to put something so precious?

There is a song from Shakira that goes "I cannot ask for the eternal from a mortal man (or woman!)" and I thought, Shakira is so right, LOL. The love my soul seeks is eternal and can only be fulfilled by HP. Faith, nature, the love I can give myself every day and every minute is what nurtures me and the only thing I really need in this life... no one else's temporary version of "love" according to their human-ness, understanding, stage of THEIR life, mood, need for patching infancy traumas, etc. will ever match the one between me and Life itself.

As they say around here, there is a "God-shaped hole" in my soul. No human will be able to fit it. Develop this relation benham, with the HP of your understanding..

Remember, if you love and you give it is out of your free will, because it gives you joy... it is a gift and a blessing to YOU to be able to choose whom and which activities will receive YOUR attention, time and love. No expectation at all from the object of your love makes you free.

I struggle with the same honesty and sincere talks, but my therapist told me "talk to your partner as if you were his best friend" that relieves some tension.

Also, rephrasing "I expect from you..." to "I would prefer it if you..." works wonders (I learned this from a poster called LaTeeDa)

Expectation is (oftentimes) control, and we all know how things end up when you start doing things out of obligation. Preference is letting the other know which option suits you best and let him/her choose it by free will...if he/she cares enough.. or negotiate with you to meet you halfway. Or, totally ignore the concern... and then its your CHOICE to stay with someone like that, or move on to someone more cooperative that has the same idea of what a mature relationship looks like.

Let HP take care of her - in the words of an alcoholic, you have done everything you can for her..you have held her hand. Now your job is to take HP's hand and know you are being led and protected - to open your heart and allow love to flow and fill it - you are loved dearly, and you will always be.

Hugs!!

silkspin

TakingCharge, you've made some terrific points, thank you. It's so BIG to think that I used to give my love with strings - send something out and then pull the other person in with it, trying to get something back. I read an article somewhere in my early recovery about 'connections' like tentacles that we send out and latch to others. This will never result in success and we need to work on cutting those strings.

Benham, I can relate but the opposite way. My H is the A and is very passive. If I'm upset he walks around on eggshells and that behaviour used to feed my desire to control. It's very unhealthy but I'd take it cuz I wanted his attention regardless. Now, with 8 months of Al Anon and reading, meditating, I no longer want this from him. I actually don't like it. If I'm upset, I don't want anyone else to 'interfere' with that. Once last week it happened. He moped and was guarded because I wasn't happy. It made me more upset and I couldn't figure out why I was getting so p1ssed at him. Then I realized it was because by him being upset by me, it was giving me the responsibility to make things better for both of us. I couldn't have my feelings and emotions to myself because here was this other affected person, and I felt pressured to feel better so he could feel better. Perhaps this is the negative dynamic that you guys feel.

I also didn't know how to talk with him in his recovery but I'm learning. The first thing I did was detach completely and live and let live. I went about my daily business and DID not ask about his recovery AT ALL. If he talked I'd listen but held back any urge to comment or argue. I'd just let him say what's on his mind. Now, we were able to find an AA/Al Anon couples meeting in our area and we've gone 3 times. That has done wonders already. We hear other couples stories about each side of the relationship and it's opened us to a dialogue with each other.

It's a tough road, and it's hard to know what to do. The best way I've been able to cope is to do exactly what TakingCharge said. I will give of myself as I want - love, support, whatever. If it doesn't come back that's ok because I chose to give it. Thankfully in my case it is coming back, but now on its own accord. If it didn't I could choose to no longer give it. But it strengthens my soul to give selflessly of myself and this works too with others than my AH.

What we codies have to learn is that we need to manage ourselves ONLY. When we give only to expect something back will lead to the terrible feelings you have been feeling. And we should not think of ourselves as any less, just because we are giving without knowing that anything will come back. That is a risk, but one that pays off because we empower ourselves. It's like being nice to someone who is angry. They can be angry if they want, but I choose to give something good to them instead of anger back. I then feel good about that so then it doesn't matter what they do because I'm happy and at peace with my actions.

I hope that helps. I'm still going through it, every day.

benham

I have just done this. Some of it involves not talking to her or anything. I have enough things that i need to do during the course of the week that I can stay busy without trying to "keep busy", if that makes sense. I'm not doing the things to avoid her, but part of me wants to avoid her for right now. We just had a fight and there's such a big part of me that wants to go and apologize and get the fight over with because I hate how everything feels during the "fighting" time. I've told her that i would like to talk about it, so she knows. I will not pressure her to talk about it, but I will not fake forgiveness to get it over with. I've done that in the past, and it has always come back. I'm going to work on myself right now, whether she cares or not and whether she supports me or not. I used to think that I'm recovering because of her. Nope! I am recovering right now because I am powerless over alcohol, and my struggle against this powerlessness has made my life unmanageable. This had nothing to do with her. My discovery of powerlessness could have come from anybody else and due to my character flaws I would have reacted in a similar fashion. Getting better this time around is all for me. I want to do the steps so i can start to get better, so that I can be a better person. It may be mean to say, but I don't care about what she's doing right now. I can't. If I "care", that turns into "care for" and there I am trying to fix her again. When I can love without asking for a reply and "care about" without trying to control, i will know that I am starting to get better.

silkspin

Benham, you and I are in very similar situations, albeit on the opposite sides. But I think it's good that we're talking because we can offer a good perspective.

What you say about 'fighting time' is very poignant. This is how AH would feel when we argued. He would feel uncomfortable with the conflict and then would acquiesce in any way needed to get rid of that feeling. And usually that meant he would do something he didn't want, i.e. apologize, ignore his wants or feelings, for the sake of 'ending' the argument. And by doing so, he'd feed me feelings of power - like I was right, or ok, we'll do it your way. Then, because he felt so powerless in his decisions, he'd go out and drink to make himself feel better. It was the only thing he could control. And then I'd get angrier with his drinking, and you see how it goes. The dynamic fed on itself.

Our first few months of his sobriety, I'd kicked him out into a basement bedroom. So like you, we didn't really communicate. We have a 19 month old too, and I focused on her and me. So maybe your schedules are giving you that needed time to leave each other alone. I truly think that he needed to be left to himself to find his legs so to speak, after years of me butting in. And I needed time away to consider my part.

When you have these feelings, instead of looking to her, look to you. Why do you feel uncomfortable? Why can't you stand having that negative feeling linger. It is probably a signal and it is up to you to work through it by yourself. For ex, he tells me now that he doesn't know how he won't be able to drink in social situations; he feels that people will look at him funny if he refuses a drink. To be honest, I bet no one would care. But it's HIS feeling of discomfort. He feels weird because he's always gone with the crowd and now he must face finding a voice and piping up about what he can or cannot do. That is really the issue. So our feelings are our guide to deal with something inside of us. That's what you can do and trust me, the feelings of having to involve her in solving your feelings will lessen. And hopefully the same will happen for her.

You're 'not caring' comments I interpret as 'detachment'. I explained it to my mom one time that I can cheer AH on from the sidelines but I can't jump into his soccer game and start scoring goals. You are putting yourself where you belong, on the sideline on her recovery. You can be there for guidance but you don't need to get more involved. Even better, stop watching the game and go sign up for your own sport!

Final note - I see you're eager to do the steps. I could be wrong (so let me know) but just a caution of wanting or expecting too much too soon. My own experience is that the program works not by force but by subtlety. Go, listen, read, post here. Each part of the program will naturally open itself up as you become ready for it.

benham

I am afraid she will get tired of the relationship that she has and will leave me. That, or she will try to find some way to hurt me to relieve the hurt she's feeling because we aren't talking (cheating, drinking etc). This is all in my head, and I choose not to believe it anymore. She can try stuff, and it is okay to have an emotional response that isn't thought through. My reaction, however, is up to me.

As for the steps: yes I am eager to restart them. Don't worry, I've already done the "too fast, too soon" approach. Our group started to do step studies and instead of listening to successes, I became resentful that I wasn't at that step yet and couldn't contribute. At that time, my happiness in the group was based on how much I could share. I'm ready to slow down and accept what is given to me. My HP knows what I need, it is time to release that control too.

Thanks for the "flip side" interpretation, it's really helping.

silkspin

You know, that very feeling kept me in a previous and very toxic and controlling relationship for a long time. Those feelings persisted into this relationship, and I became the 'controller' so that I could feel I had power over my situation.

I'm amazed looking back, at how paralyzing these thoughts are. Everything I did or didn't do had an ulterior motive because I feared abandonment and it's exhausting and a miserable way to live. I also had feelings of 'get him before he gets me'.

What TakingCharge said is really good. We should give of ourselves because we want to and that's it. It's funny - why should anything I do hinge on how others may or may not react? I should just BE and just DO, as I see best.

My perspective now is that if someone may leave me, then they'll do it regardless of what I say or do. I won't live my life with that horrible worry hanging over me. I feel more free, and happier in my daily life. I know I'd make it whatever were to happen. Maybe playing it forward would help you - ok, so what if she did get tired and want to leave? Would you survive and go on? Yes, you would. You'd cope. When you feel that you could handle it, maybe it wouldn't be so scary as to consume what you could be doing today.

benham

Well, I found out why she was so quiet over the weekend. She had a relapse. She decided to tell me while I was home getting ready to go to Al-Anon. She was about to go to her outpatient group therapy. When she told me she drank again, it didn't affect me. What DID affect me was her insinuating that it was because I don't care. I thought she could make it, but she chose to do what she did. I think that it is time to set and communicate boundaries. I'm going to talk with her counselor over the phone tomorrow. Her husband is in Al-Anon so she said she would give me his number. With all of the cr-p that I'm feeling right now, that one thing that isn't there is fear. It may be a small thing, but that's already a difference for me.

bluejay6

Good, Benham. Don't let the addiction have the upper hand. Good luck getting more support! It's just what you need.