anubus

This is a kinda weird topic/post, but has me wondering since I've always had a strong interest in Human Behavior, intrigued by pshycology, criminal minds, etc. Yesterday I was bored and feeling depressed. There is a book I always wanted to read called "The Sociopath Next Door", so I did a search on the internet for it, and in the process found a really informative site about Sociopaths. It listed a long list of symptoms, and quite to my amased surprize, EVERY single one of them fit ABF to a T.

But, of course the same symptoms fit A's.....no conscience, compulsive liars, charismac personality, unable to keep relationships, huge ego yet self loathing in reality, etc etc.

So just wondering if there is an association between Sociopaths & Alcoholism?
Anyone have thoughts or info on this? Also, a friend of mine raised an interesting question........if associated, does the Sociapathic behavior CAUSE the Alcoholism, or does the Alcoholism CAUSE the Sociapathic behavior.....(chicken & egg thing).

Again, this is probably a stupid post, but it has me curious (I know...curiostiy KILLED the cat....

Sweets79

VERY INTERESTING topic...I have met a few sociopaths in my life...and they all seemed to have some sort of addiction problem...I've read all the books and done tons of research, because 2 of them almost made me lose my mind...They are extremely conning and are very different from everyone else...VERY charming...I dont think alcoholism causes sociopathic behavior...Actually some stuff I've read says it has something to do with frontal lobe damage early on in birth/childhood....I think the only thing in common with alcohol and sociopaths is it's just another addiction for them...Definitely not a stupid post...very intriguing one.

sailorjohn

IMO, the addiction causes the sociopathic behavior.

laurie6781

Alcoholics are also Narcissistic.

So, I have no idea, and I am an alcoholic. Have never really figured myself out, although I can tell you that all those 'ugly behaviors' after just about 28 years in continuous recovery seem to be gone.

So if you figure it out, I imagine you could make a bundle, lol

I guess it just doesn't matter to me any more, even though I still work a lot with those in early recovery and recovery. I know there is way to get past it all, so I would rather share my ES&H on how to do that than to analyze the "whys and wherefores" <vbg>

J M H O

Love and hugs,

MissFixit

Laurie,

Hi. Do you think dealing with or modifying the "ugly behaviors" is somehting that you realize you do or is it part of the benefit of working a recovery program?

Miss

anubus

Thank you Sweets.....I was afraid it was a stupid topic, I hesitated to post it......lol. Yeah, the site also mentions somehting about the frontal lobe in the brain.

Sailorjohn.....I hope you are right that the addiction causes the other.....I am praying for ABF to combat his addiction, then when I read the Sociopath stuff, it made me think......"OH NO!!!"......

But I was curious about this, so I do appreciate all the replies!
Laurie.......dang don;t we WISH we could figure this out, we would be millionaires...lol. And help alot of people in the process. But it's so nice to get your insight, since you LIVED it. Your experience helps all of us learn & understand......THANK YOU.

The human brain is such a complex & interesting subject......I am just intrigued by how it works (or malfunctions in some people).

MissFixIt....I know your question was for Laurie, but in my opionion, learning & understanding helps us understand this craziness, helps me to cope anyway!! Knowledge is power.

The website I read if anyone is interested, is:
www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html
There is also a neat test on there to see if you are a Sociopath.

bluejay6

Glad you posted this and I wanted to read others' replies.

I was reading up on Narcissistic Personality Disorder today because I, too, want to unravel addiction from character disorder as I look back on the addict I was with.

And as I read about NPD, I thought, "My God, what if he gets clean again and comes back and seems like the man I first knew.....and then I find out (after giving my heart away again) that he has a character disorder wired in FOR LIFE?"

It scared me, really. Because I so much do not want to be so hurt again. No more pain. I am scraped raw. And the thing about narcissists and sociopaths is how skilled they are at fooling you. I don't want to turn into Ingrid Bergman in "Gaslight", thinking I am losing my mind as he is being so "reasonable and calm." (As he sticks another needle in my heart).

I agree with Sailor John, though. The general population has a certain percentage of people with genetic vulnerability to addictive disease.

This means that normal people will have it, sociopaths will have it, narcissists will have it, psychopaths will have it, and the POPE could have it!

If we knew the addict in the years before he got sick, then we'd have greater faith in his return to his natural soul.

But if we met him post-addictive disease, how do we know what lies underneath?

I was with a man for 15 years. The first 10 years he was normal, kind, and my best friend. Then he turned to alcohol to deal with enormous stress, and he turned into an alcoholic and was no longer normal, kind, and, as a result, no longer in my life.

If he ever finds recovery, I believe he will return to the good man he was.

Now, I was more recently with a recovering drug addict for just under a year. He relapsed. Disappeared. Would not communicate with me in any way.

If he gets on track again....gets clean....comes back....as the man I fell in love with.....I still don't know enough about him to know whether his selfish and frankly brutal behavior toward me (psychologically, with the silent treatment) was the result of addiction or mental hardwiring. This troubles me a great deal.

So I appreciate your post and hope others will talk about this.

anubus

Bluejay.....gosh, thank you for sharing your thoughts!! I could have written some of them myself, that was how I was feeling when I read this stuff, but was afraid to post it. In fact, I was SO afraid to even post this topic, for fear people would react negetively to it. Reading the positive replies has boosted my confidance in myself, because weird, but I am so wore out from this disease, I feel so stupid in anything I do or think anymore. I question everything I do as "Is this being Codependant, or for some sick in myself reason?". This desease just makes us questions ourselves & motives so much.

As for our loved ones, it is interesting to ask these questions such as my post, and very informative to hear the replies. I get scared as you posted, about character flaws if/when they DO get sober, and yes, can relate to the needle (I call it a butcher knife) in the heart again.....ugh. But for our own recovery, we just have to trust in our HP to work all that out at the right time. Whatever doesn't KILL us, will stregthen us, right? Hard, but true!!

Hopefully SailorJohn is right, and the addiction causes the rest .....and that they realize before its too late.

nowwhat

bluejay, my thoughts exactly--and I, for one, don't think every A has a full blown personality disorder.

IMHO, it is not worth the chance of being sucked back into the manipulation. I intend to have no contact, whatsoever, with my XABF. Life's too short and my heart is too precious to gamble with. There are plenty of healthy men out there. I want to work on myself so that I am attracted and attractive to health.

Anubus, this is a great topic.

Eroica

Neither one causes the other. Most alcoholics are *not* sociopaths. For someone to be a true sociopath, they can't feel any remorse or guilt for their actions. Now, they can pretend to. But because they don't really feel guilt they'll always keep on hurting you.

My experience.. you can't change a sociopath. You'll have an easier time getting an alkie to stop drinking. lol I was so naive, I really had a hard time grappling with the fact that there are thousands of sociopaths out there waiting to manipulate and use people. I used to think everyone has some good, but not anymore.

Bamboozle

Having no conscience is the hallmark characteristic of a sociopath. Conciseness or the lack of is fixed.

Please do not conflate alcoholics and sociopaths. To do so puts alcoholics in the same category that people like Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgeway occupy. I personally find that comparison to be offensive.

Seren

This topic has come up before in the forums....in fact within the last 6 months. I personally do not believe that all alcoholics or addicts are sociopaths. Some display the self-serving, uncaring characteristics of sociopaths. It's my understanding, however, that once the alcoholic/addict truly seeks and works on recovery, these characteristics go away.

I'm sure there are some for whom there is an underlying pathology that does not leave once they are in recovery, but that can only be addressed by a professional, right?

Just my 2 cents, I guess. Hugs, HG

Startingover2

I have read alot about sociopaths as well. When exah and I were going to counseling 2 different counselors thought he was a sociopath.

I really don't know if they are related. In a similar way I asked a fellow member once if infidelity and alcoholism go hand in hand. He made a good point. The alcohol can make the cheating easier and loosen his conscience. There are many out there that are alcoholics that do not cheat, while there are non alcoholics that do cheat. That came out all wrong, but I think you get the picture.

To me, the addict personality makes them very selfish and most are probably sociopaths to a degree. Either way you will get run over if you lay down on the tracks.

Barbara52

I have gotten to the point where I don't care what the reason behind the unacceptbale behaviors are. The bottom line is I won't live or be involved with someone who engages in unacceptable bahviors. Its not my place to figure out or control or cure the "whys" of their bad behaviors.

FreeBird09

Great topic anubus! I feel that every addicted person has an underlying 'wiring' problem which causes the addiction. (including us addicted to our addicts OCD???) I agree that environmental factors can be associated with any mental health issue, but one of addiction to substance is caused mainly by the inability to differentiate between acceptable consumption, and over indulgence. Indifference to societal rules, morals, judgement, and the inability to say to themselves : this is screwing up my life.

I also think that sociopath tendencies are exasperated with the consumption of alcohol, or other mind altering substances. Underneath it all, the mental illness may not be as active and wax and wane with environmental factors, but when they are actively using/abusing there is no 'down time' for the 'wiring' and it is full force ahead with the behaviors associated with the mental illness.

Bluejay, I met my ABF while in high school, we were high school sweethearts and reunited 25 years later. He had issues back then, before he was an A, one huge one was withdrawing. When we reunited he was only an older man, who withdrew and drank (drinks) like a fish. His issues run deep to the core of him. BUT, I believe in God, and believe that in him all things are possible, even when they have a mental illness.

Doesn't most people in this world have some form of mental illness now-a-days? It's an epidemic.

Eroica

Sociopathy is not an illness. Many sociopaths are perfectly happy and healthy. If it was an illness, then we wouldn't put em in jail for hacking up their families and stealing millions from people's savings accounts. They take pleasure in hurting peple and know what they're doing is wrong, but they don't care.

Addiction is a chronic condition accompanied by withdrawals, craving, usually depression, etc

In other words, they are totally different animals. Bam is right.. its kinda offensive to compare the two.

FreeBird09

Eroica, if being a sociopath is NOT an illness, what would it be called, I would love to hear your take on it? Addiction is caused by an underlying mental illness. (Not saying all alcoholics are sociopaths, that is too broad of an assumption since there are so many mental illnesses)

Also, everyone has some good in them. It's wether we want to bother with trying to uncover that 'good' is the next thing. BUT, why should we if it doesn't meet or exceed what we want in our life then why bang our heads against the wall for the sake of one human being? (<~~ that is/was my struggle, beating my head against the wall and the only one who got hurt in the process is myself)

Katie09

OMG, this is what I get for popping over here:

No conscience - go read my latest thread in which I don't want to compromise an important relationship or hurt others on the path to sobriety.

Compulsive liars - again go read my thread where I am *quite* honest

Charismatic - sorry, would love to be but I'm an introvert so no

Huge ego - sorry, no huge ego here. I know I'm overweight and have huge failings. At the same time, I do have some accomplishments in my background.

What a slam on those of us with issues. BTW, read the book as well. The two true sociopaths, as I'd define them in my very limited knowledge, had no addictions. Also, I have been seeing a shrink for five years. My only Dx's are alcohol dependence and bipolar disorder. You won't see any cluster B Dx's there. Sheesh.

Oh, and furthermore, for people caught up in situations with those of us with issues, look in the mirror. What does it say about *y'all* who choose to remain in painful situations? Not exactly shining examples of mental health, if I don't say so.

Eroica

I would say sociopathy is just that-a lack of conscience. Some people are just born with no conscience. They deserve no empathy or love, because they're essentially incapable of feeling it... and if u get too close to them they will probably end up hurting/lying to you because they only think of themselves.

Now, some people might see that as an illness but I don't. You can be a successful sociopath-doctor, lawyer, politician and screw people your whole life and get away with it. If we tried to treat them, it wouldn't do any good because they're perfectly functional. Thats why I say there's nothing "ill" about having no conscience.

And I would disagree with you that sociopaths have some good in them. They don't think or talk about morals at all, unless its to fool you. They have as much good as a reptile does.

bookwyrm

Katie, I'm guessing you're an alcoholic in recovery. You seem to be taking a general discussion about alcoholics very personally.

You know, I don't see anyone here saying all alcoholics are sociopaths. I do see a lot of people who are hurt by the alcoholics in their life trying to make some sense of it all, trying forever to work out WHY and we can all only speak from our own experiences.

From our side of the fence, our A's may outwardly demonstrate a lot of the tendancies of sociopaths. Some of them will be sociopaths, just as some of them will be blonde, some tall etc.

There is a reason this is the Friends and Family board. We are here to find recovery for US. We are here for our issues. This includes venting about the A's in our lives. We need a safe place to talk about these things without wondering if we're hurting the feelings of alcoholics, recovering or otherwise. We already get messed around with the A's in our lives and need somplace safe to discuss our thoughts and feelings.

This was totally uncalled for. We know we are co dependants, this is why we post here, working on our issues. Again, I wonder why you are taking this so personally? Maybe you should have a read at the stickies at the top of this forum to find out where those who post here are coming from.

My AH displayed mainly narcissistic traits rather than sociopathic but, sometimes, how he treated me seemed as if he had no conscience at all. I can see the overlap. I have, thankfully, given up trying to understand why he did what he did and why he acts the way he does. That way lies madness. But I spent a lot of my time wondering if it was me or some other underlying pathology that made him drink. The why doesn't really matter to me any more, it doesn't make a difference. I still didn't cause it, can't control it nor cure it. I just have to decide how to live my life.