tallulah

and the subject.. codependency..

This is something I struggle with. I am not a natural codependent. Sure I care about people, have natural personality characteristics that are caring and nuturing... but never behaviour that is harmful or degrading to my life (I have a line and when it is reached it is reached). I've never enabled the A's drinking, never tried to rescue him from the consequences of it or from himself, never tried to change him.. I knew from the outset that was never my role and I was never going to make that happen.

But, as I have gained knowledge, I do see how my behaviour was modified in order to 'survive'. You see in the beginning, when I would detach and let him get on with it, not answer his quacking calls, call him out on his manipulative behaviour, etc. it got me nowhere but more trouble. It escalated things. It made me feel sad or frustrated when he would act out even more. I suppose I became 'anything for a quiet life'.

I'm sure it is no coincidence that my time on the chair rota coincides with this topic, but I have to say, I am finding writing this chair very difficult.

MissFixit

I don't know what you mean by a natural co-dependent. You stayed with the man despite his negative behavior. Most of us did. I think that lack of self....preservation?respect?boundaries? is one of the big co-dependent problems. Once we allow someone to cross our boundaries and we stay, then we have sent a message to the abuser.

tallulah

I suppose I mean, I don't tick the Beattie et al checklist.

Yeah.. I stayed.. that's what I mean by modified behaviour. With my A (he certainly had other issues as well as the alcoholism) detachment brought about other situations and so even though I knew I was not emotionally 'disabled' (I knew that his attention seeking and behaviour was not right and nothing I did or said would change it) being caring and concerned was almost needed to keep the peace as it were. A survival tactic for want of a better expression.

There were two ways of treating it.. the first was to be caring and concerned, the second was to detach and completely. He was not able to deal with the 'norm'.. a loving caring relationship.

I stayed because I became a volunteer in his sickness.. and by sickness I mean as a whole not just his disease. He was not drinking.. but he had other issues. He relapsed early in our relationship.. my response to that was to leave him to it. It was his parents who 'rescued' him. His other issues always had getting help tabled, but that never came to fruition... which is why I decided to leave. I always knew I couldn't help him but I stopped believing he'd help himself. I am not an alcoholic so the whole sobriety thing to me was stop drinking, get into a 12 step, get a sponsor.. it was not until some time had passed did I realise that sobriety is way way more than that. When I realised this, when I realised he wasn't 'sober' and may never be 'sober'.. I told him 'I'm gone'.

Freedom1990

You don't see any codependent behavior in the above, honestly?

tallulah

yeah.. I see it.. my modification writ large...

'anything for a quiet life' = nod sagely, say 'there there', avoid rages and his inventory taking being called some unsavoury names and flying objects..

tallulah

this is probably part of forgiving myself..

you see I don't do enabling.. I don't do black holes sucking the life out of you.. I don't do 'poor me poor me pour me another drink'... with him I did.. I'm still trying to get my head around that and allow myself a little slack..

MissFixit

T,

I understand your feelings, although I was not physically hurt like you.

I have considered my compassion and tolerance of others' issues one of best qualities for much of my life. However, it has gotten me into a world of hurt recently and I allowed myself to be disrespected by my ex as I was too accepting of unacceptable behavior. That behavior was like a snowball rolling into an avalanche over time. I got squashed, but I put myself in that position. I usually don't put myself in such an extreme position with people, but then again he was my best friend. I made exceptions for him. I shouldn't have done that if I wanted to be in a healthy relationship. He shouldn't have crossed boundaries if he wanted a healthy relationship. We both were at fault. My allowance was the co-dependency thing at work.

tallulah

that's ok :ghug

I understand that. Give an inch and they take a mile. But we allowed it. Like you I'm no pushover and my BS meter is usually finely honed. In this case (and I am still trying to work this out) it was not firing on all cylinders. I loved this man: I wanted the best for him and wanted to see the best in him. It took an act of violence to metaphorically sever those bonds of gossamer and see it for what it really is. He is abusive (to himself and others) and I was there allowing myself to be abused. You are absolutely right.. a healthy relationship required behaviours on both sides. There is not a day goes by when I don't ask myself why (when he set up some master manipulation which if I told you what it was.. if some friend had told me what it was.. would have most people screaming get away from him.. run and don't look back) I didn't walk my normal path.

kwigers

Perhaps it is meant for you to write about your own understanding of codependency or maybe the positive side(light side) of codependency. Everything has a positive and a negative, and co-dependency certainly offers many opportunities for both.
I found for myself many gifts such as, I didn't have to own my ****, I could easy put it on the other person. I didn't have to be responsible for not stepping out into my fear of the world, I had an excuse. I got to feel better than another person, and feed my ego! Co-dependency isn't only a negative thing! It served me very well for a long time! I could go on and on, but there are many gifts to be had.
Love and light!~Cheryl

tallulah

thanks recoverycoach... :ghug

I think you are right. When I was told what the topic was I thought how am I going to approach this. I could change it, tackle another issue, but this has been put in my path to address something I am struggling with.. my understanding of how I became almost the antithesis of the woman the A met, the woman who is now and some kind of healing and forgiveness of me then. The giving was largely one-sided and hurt me... maybe it is time to acknowledge that, forgive myself and put measures in place that it never happens again.

catlovermi

This is our codie version of thinking that a codie has to look and act a certain, drastic way, to be affected and undermined by codependency. Sort of like the folks who don't think an alcoholic can be an alcoholic unless they are homeless and living under a bridge, sucking down cheap wine.

Anything we allow that enables the status quo to go on unchallenged in an alkie's behavior is enabling, because it allows them to continue with no real consequences to their negative behavior. A non-codependent would be out the door, or have the alkie out the door, after the first instance of unacceptable behavior, because the behavior was unacceptable. The very fact that the behavior was able to go on with no reality based consequences is enabling.

You don't have to snoop, snipe, and siren, to be a codie. You just have to let unacceptable stuff slide. That in itself is enabling.

It doesn't mean we control their behavior. But if their behavior is unacceptable, we act in a manner to remove that behavior from our life.

CLMI

MissFixit

Hi again.

I think Cat is on to something. I too once viewed co-dependent behavior in an extreme hyper-needy way. I thought that I wasn't like that, although, I actually was. I didn't recogize it though. I was functional and getting through grad school, I thought that meant I was independent and healthy. Wrong.

tallulah

I hear ya CLMI. But I don't think it is always that simple.

I didn't even know what codependent was until I heard it after finding Al-Anon. I didn't know what being in a romantic relationship with an alcoholic entailed until being with the A. I didn't know what an abusive relationship was until him either. I'd had interdependent relationships: give and take...reciprocity. Sure I'd kissed some frogs, but I never had the misfortune to encounter someone so... well words escape me... until him.

When I didn't live with him I didn't suffer the BS. Then comes the promises and the actions which make you believe the promises. The little things that hook you in.. and the lies and manipulations. Then you are sharing the same living space. Then you are in a place where getting out isn't so easy and those promises and actions have fallen by the wayside.. along with all of your escape routes.. all of your support network.. etc.

I understand what you are saying.. but when you're in an abusive relationship.. sometimes to be 'codie' is survival. And by being 'codie' I mean not doing something for yourself about the continuing unacceptable behaviour. Try telling an abusive alcoholic (wet or dry) that you are leaving because they way they act is unacceptable... that the behaviour and them are being removed from your life. I did.. codie was not me, I couldn't take it for that long and faced with being that to survive or leave I chose leaving.. it didn't go well.

I'd love to be able to say 'it's ok T.. you loved an alkie.. you are codependent (to whatever degree).. you get help for that.. you'll be fine'. It'd give me some answers. But it isn't always that easy to stick a label on something. I don't suffer bad behaviour.. I'm not a people pleaser or a rescuer.. I don't say yes when I really mean no.. I don't own other people's stuff.. or I didn't. I was one of those women who said wtf, when I heard stories like mine. I was one of those women who would run a mile from someone who said 'be mine, by the way I have an addiction to <insert doc>'. And yet I am now on the other side probably as bewildered as all the women you hear about and you never understood. But I kind of do understand now.

The biggest problem I have post my leaving is my difficulty in forgiving myself for swallowing the BS, putting myself in a position where detachment was difficult if not impossible and where economically geographically socially I had been isolated and bending like a pretzel because he was not 'sober'. I didn't stay because I wanted to be like that, because I was in some symbiotic relationship where he fed me drama and I lapped it up. I stayed because I was in an abusive relationship.. and I swallowed the 'I'm an alcoholic' justification and the esoteric stuff he spouted about AA and recovery. I stayed because what could happen (to me, not him) if I left was more scary than staying and playing 'negative emotional climate'. I always knew it was screwed up.. I knew it was screwing ME up.. hence why I am no longer there.

I'm finding this subject for the chair difficult because saying all that is difficult.

catlovermi

I would argue that, when you'd had enough, you finally enacted those same escape routes that had been there all along, that you previously had not chosen to use. What changed was your willingness to exercise your options.

CLMI

tallulah

not strictly true.. my escape was via an ambulance.. not (as I planned) under my own steam with my health intact..

if nothing else, my gut feeling that when 'codie' coat came off target t-shirt was underneath was spot on..

catlovermi

The friends that you now stay with... who have taken you in because you needed a place to stay. Were they not living in the same place before your ambulance ride? Would they have refused you help, in the face of living with a spiraling alcoholic, just because he hadn't sent you to the ER?

They took you in, because you asked for help, and had a valid reason to need it. The same was true before your assault. It's just that his behavior hadn't met your threshold, yet.

And, BTW, "codependency" is just a term that describes a group of a type of behaviors or responses. It isn't a moral judgment. Just like the term "alcoholic" isn't a moral condemnation. Both sets of behaviors are correctable. Neither are due to moral failings.

Perhaps you have it in your (subconscious?) mind that "codependency" is a failing of some sort, and this is perhaps creating a mental roadblock to having inherited the topic for the meeting. You seem to really be fighting with the idea that you did indeed fit the criteria for codependent behavior. "Codependency" is a description of behaviors and is not linked to self-worth. It's easy to slip into thinking it is a failure, and therefore one blames oneself and devalues oneself when discovering codependent tendencies.

CLMI

DesertEyes

Wonderful thread, here's my .02 worth

I don't believe there is such a thing as a "natural codependent". Nobody is _born_ with codie traits. It's something we acquire as we grow, then we feed it 'till it overwhelms us. It starts small and grows over the years. Some of us get lucky and figure it out before it kills us. Some of us don't.

What I've heard in my meetings is that I should always say "yet". There are a whole lot of behaviors that I did _not_ engage in as a code with my ex-wife.

Yet.

I still have a future. I can still go marry another addict/alkie, allow my codie behaviors to take over and become that "yet". Just because I survived my past does not imply that I will survive my future.

In my own recovery I have found that I only have difficulty with issues over which I still have room to grow. When my divorce was final I refused to take off my wedding ring. My sponsor suggested I to a fourth and fifth step and examine _my_ part in the end of my marriage.

I was unhappy at the suggestion. It was all _her_ fault. Not mine. But I did the inventory anyway. Whadya know, I discovered that the reason I refused to take off the ring was because I was afraid that people would think less of me because I was divorced. I had my ego wrapped up in the documentation of being married.

My part in the end of my marriage is that I allowed her behavior to go unchecked because I didn't want to "rock the boat", which in turn was fear of what people would say if I failed as a husband. It was my pride and my fear that was a part in the whole chaos. After a few years of that insanity I had a heart attack. Partly due to a health condition, but much agravated by the stress.

Now I don't mind being divorced. It's like being in a car wreck, sooner or later it happens to everybody. But I never would have learned that if my sponsor had not pushed me to work on an issue that I was finding very difficult.

Mike

tallulah

yeah they were always in the place they live now..

Would they have taken me in before? That I don't know. To have been in a position to find out would have been to put myself in the position of admitting being in an abusive relationship. That was difficult on many counts. Not least because to do so may have put them in harms way. I think I should point out that the A was not drinking and had not been drinking for two years. He was attending AA, had a commitment and a sponsor and was on paper doing all the right things. His problem is not alcohol.. or should I say his problem is alcohol but it is not the reason why he behaved the way he behaved. I can't go into detail... but his issues are not packaged in a bottle. I'm not doubting he has a problem with alcohol but hindsight is a wonderful thing and there was something he did that screamed manipulation revolving around the label he has of 'alcoholic'.

I always felt OK enough to expect respectful treatment at all times, and to notice when it is not forthcoming. His behaviour met my threshold some time before I left. I can't go into detail because to do so would mean pouring my entire last year with him out on the page and all the stuff I had to endure to get me in a place where I could move out... and that's not for public consumption.. certainly not yet anyway. I moved in with him and I got it sussed pretty quickly.. the honeymoon period did not last long.. unfortunately getting into a relationship with someone like him is very easy.. getting out, not so easy.

Nah.. I don't see it as a moral, intellectual or any other kind of judgement. It is a label to me.. like 'normal'. I've read the articles, the checklists, done the fearless and searching inventory and as much as I'd love to be able to put a name on what happened and my part in it I can't put that one on. Not because I don't want to.. God knows I'd like an answer to my question 'why'.. but because it doesn't fit.

The phrase that fits is the one I have a hard time accepting I fit the criteria of... and it ain't 'codie'.

catlovermi

Well, think carefully about the overall pattern. This statement suggests you engaged in behaviors, and accepted behaviors, that you now see as not healthy for you. It's likely the ability of you to undergo that is a function of some unmet inner child need or emotional need that you had the illusion during those behaviors of being met. Perhaps even a financial need. For some reason, you stayed. There were no bars on the windows or locks on the doors, locking you in against your will, right?

But it boils down to the same thing. You put up with circumstances and behaviors, both yours and his, that you now are beginning to see as unhealthy and perhaps degrading to you. The question is: why?

The answer is usually a variation of using external validation to try to meet internal needs, in the face of inadequate self-worth. Or pride - being too proud to see reality as it is, and share that you see reality, and see the need to ask for help, and ask for it. And when you look at pride, it boils down again to self-worth - that pride acts as a protective barrier, protecting a fragile self-worth with the facade of whatever it is you want to "look" like to outsiders.

Just food for thought. Whatever term you use, the overall pattern is basically the same. It boils down to semantics.

CLMI

tallulah

Thanks Mike..

I'm English.. I phrase things funny by natural 'co-dependent' I suppose I mean the behaviours associated don't come easily to me. It was killing me to 'be' that person.. but necessary.

The 'yet' thing. Just listing my past M.O. but I hear ya. Never say never. Well in fact, in some ways I can take that off the list. My being there as hostage enabled him to continue his 'ways'.

You are right about difficulty being in areas where growth is needed or there is room for growth. I am having a tough time forgiving myself for what happened, for moulding myself into (what I see as) a pitiful creature hiding her light under a bushel just for days without drama (and that is not a comment on co-dependancy btw!), for putting myself in a position and not being able to find a way out quick enough.

I hated hated hated every minute I had to sit there and listen to his crap demonisation of me and act like I 'understand' so he got some implicit permission to continue his behaviour.. because to say 'hang on a minute you are wrong' or 'B******T' just wound him up even more. I could go on. I'm not proud of myself. That's why it is hard. It is not a reflection on codependent behaviour or people who are truly codependent and live every day like that (possibly for the rest of their lives). It is a reflection on me... the last person I would ever have pegged to be in a relationship with someone like him... let alone put on a mask and survive it.