Am I off base here?
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: California
Posts: 39
Am I off base here?
The other night AH and I had a conversation. It started out talking about an actor who by all accounts is an alcoholic. AH mentioned that he had been in and out of rehab several times, and I remarked "yeah, you know what that's like." Not poking fun at him, not criticizing him, just a factual statement that AH understands the struggle the actor has been going through. AH immediately said "sore subject."
Later I asked him if I was allowed to say anything at all about it. I asked him if that's what he tells everyone else when the subject comes up...he says he never brings it up. He admits that it goes back to his pride that he considers as one of his shortcomings. He says he doesn't talk to me about his recovery anymore because I "just don't get it." He says he doesn't think I believe it's a disease.
Of course I understand that it does develop into a disease, but that I think a lot of it initially stems from our own choices. I used as an illustration the last time he drank. He said he found some alcohol he had hidden away and he drank it. The point I was trying to make is that he chose to drink it. He could have chosen to tell me he found it. He could have chosen to dump it down the sink. He could have chosen to seek support from the meeting he was attending. He could have chosen to call his sponsor. He could have chosen other options, but instead he chose to drink.
In the end he agreed that I was allowed to discuss this with him, as I am the one other person (aside from him) that is directly affected by it. So my question is, am I off base here? Is my thinking convoluted?
Later I asked him if I was allowed to say anything at all about it. I asked him if that's what he tells everyone else when the subject comes up...he says he never brings it up. He admits that it goes back to his pride that he considers as one of his shortcomings. He says he doesn't talk to me about his recovery anymore because I "just don't get it." He says he doesn't think I believe it's a disease.
Of course I understand that it does develop into a disease, but that I think a lot of it initially stems from our own choices. I used as an illustration the last time he drank. He said he found some alcohol he had hidden away and he drank it. The point I was trying to make is that he chose to drink it. He could have chosen to tell me he found it. He could have chosen to dump it down the sink. He could have chosen to seek support from the meeting he was attending. He could have chosen to call his sponsor. He could have chosen other options, but instead he chose to drink.
In the end he agreed that I was allowed to discuss this with him, as I am the one other person (aside from him) that is directly affected by it. So my question is, am I off base here? Is my thinking convoluted?
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Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
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The main problem of alcoholism centers in the mind, or one part I should say, once they start, they can't stop, but the definition of alcoholism is "one who has lost the power of choice"
Illness
Main Entry:
ill·ness Listen to the pronunciation of illness
Pronunciation:
\ˈil-nəs\
Function:
noun
: an unhealthy condition of body or mind : sickness
Disease
Main Entry:
dis·ease Listen to the pronunciation of disease
Pronunciation:
\diz-ˈēz\
Function:
noun
: an impairment of the normal state of the living animal or plant body or one of its parts that interrupts or modifies the performance of the vital functions, is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms
He couldn't tell you why he drank, because he doesn't know why
Personally I find it fruitless to talk to a practicing alcoholic about alcoholism, practicing alcoholism actually requires a certain amount of delusion to exist, discussing a person's delusions with the delusional person in question is at best a gesture in futility, at worst, a descent into madness myself.
Denny posted a thing a while back about the "propaganda corps" about the "warfare of addiction and denial" or something, does anyone have that saved? it explains alcoholic thinking in laymans terms far better then I can
I'll try to find it
Illness
Main Entry:
ill·ness Listen to the pronunciation of illness
Pronunciation:
\ˈil-nəs\
Function:
noun
: an unhealthy condition of body or mind : sickness
Disease
Main Entry:
dis·ease Listen to the pronunciation of disease
Pronunciation:
\diz-ˈēz\
Function:
noun
: an impairment of the normal state of the living animal or plant body or one of its parts that interrupts or modifies the performance of the vital functions, is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms
He couldn't tell you why he drank, because he doesn't know why
Personally I find it fruitless to talk to a practicing alcoholic about alcoholism, practicing alcoholism actually requires a certain amount of delusion to exist, discussing a person's delusions with the delusional person in question is at best a gesture in futility, at worst, a descent into madness myself.
Denny posted a thing a while back about the "propaganda corps" about the "warfare of addiction and denial" or something, does anyone have that saved? it explains alcoholic thinking in laymans terms far better then I can
I'll try to find it
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
I don't press alcoholics to talk about their feelings around recovery with me if they don't wish to.
If they're still active and not seeking recovery, it's a pointless exercise.
If they are working on their recovery and it makes them uncomfortable, I see no reason to push the issue.
I think the way you brought it up was fairly innocuous, myself, but someone else may not interpret it that way. That fact that *I* think it *shouldn't* bother them is irrelevant. If it does, it does.
Anyway. You're not off base but if he's in recovery maybe you should find a compromise position you're both comfortable with.
If they're still active and not seeking recovery, it's a pointless exercise.
If they are working on their recovery and it makes them uncomfortable, I see no reason to push the issue.
I think the way you brought it up was fairly innocuous, myself, but someone else may not interpret it that way. That fact that *I* think it *shouldn't* bother them is irrelevant. If it does, it does.
Anyway. You're not off base but if he's in recovery maybe you should find a compromise position you're both comfortable with.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: California
Posts: 39
I'm very confused about what I can or cannot say. For instance, he's slacked off on attending meetings...do I say anything about it, knowing that that is what got him into trouble to begin with? He said he went to a meeting last night, but I have reasons to believe he's lying to me...do I say something, or do I keep my mouth shut? If I say nothing, I feel like I'm letting him dig his own grave and I'm just sitting on the sidelines watching. It's confusing, ya know?
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
Originally Posted by SJLady 
I'm very confused about what I can or cannot say. For instance, he's slacked off on attending meetings...do I say anything about it, knowing that that is what got him into trouble to begin with? He said he went to a meeting last night, but I have reasons to believe he's lying to me...do I say something, or do I keep my mouth shut? If I say nothing, I feel like I'm letting him dig his own grave and I'm just sitting on the sidelines watching. It's confusing, ya know?
Alanon helped clear up the confusion for me on who I was responsible for, that was me, and not the alcoholic.
It also helped me develop healthier thought patterns and behaviors.
Just a thought.
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: California
Posts: 39
Freedom: Yes, I started attending meetings last week. I went last night as a matter of fact, but I think part of my confusion lies with being a baby in the program and not fully understanding what the program is all about. I talked to one of the other attendees about this last night and he said that he, too, felt the same way when he first started attending but that as time went on he understood more and more. I feel lost as to exactly what my recovery should include. I met a lady there last night and as I listened to her share her experience I was simply awe-struck as to how she was able to remain so loving and accepting of the alcoholics in her life. I felt envious of her and wondered why I couldn't be like that too. I'm not hard hearted or anything, but I feel like I have such a low tolerance for certain things, that there are certain behaviors that I am not willing to put up with, and alcoholism is one of them.
I think guilt is settling in as well. After all, I knew full well when I married him that he was an alcoholic, even though he had been sober for several years before I met and married him. I feel guilty for wanting to bail now that he's relapsed and having a hard time with his sobriety. I feel like I'm supposed to be loving and encouraging instead of always suspicious and indifferent. I want to blame him for completely ruining my trust in him, but it's my fault for putting myself in this position to begin with. If I had only listened to my gut instincts and ran when I had the chance, I wouldn't be in this position today.
I feel like I didn't do a very good job of protecting myself and now I'm reaping the consequences of my own stupid decisions.
I think guilt is settling in as well. After all, I knew full well when I married him that he was an alcoholic, even though he had been sober for several years before I met and married him. I feel guilty for wanting to bail now that he's relapsed and having a hard time with his sobriety. I feel like I'm supposed to be loving and encouraging instead of always suspicious and indifferent. I want to blame him for completely ruining my trust in him, but it's my fault for putting myself in this position to begin with. If I had only listened to my gut instincts and ran when I had the chance, I wouldn't be in this position today.
I feel like I didn't do a very good job of protecting myself and now I'm reaping the consequences of my own stupid decisions.
Being Silent so I can Hear
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,521
Originally Posted by SJLady
I'm very confused about what I can or cannot say. For instance, he's slacked off on attending meetings...do I say anything about it, knowing that that is what got him into trouble to begin with? He said he went to a meeting last night, but I have reasons to believe he's lying to me...do I say something, or do I keep my mouth shut? If I say nothing, I feel like I'm letting him dig his own grave and I'm just sitting on the sidelines watching. It's confusing, ya know?
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
Some people can live with an active alcoholic, some people can't. I was in the latter category.
There's nothing wrong with having your own personal boundaries on what is acceptable to you. Whether that is a boundary someone else has in Alanon shouldn't affect what you feel is acceptable.
If you want to stay stuck in the guilt because you married him knowing he was an alcoholic, that's your choice.
Personally I'm not responsible for anyone's recovery or relapse, including my 31 year old AD.
Life's too short to wake up bitter one day years down the road and hating myself for staying stuck.
There's nothing wrong with having your own personal boundaries on what is acceptable to you. Whether that is a boundary someone else has in Alanon shouldn't affect what you feel is acceptable.
If you want to stay stuck in the guilt because you married him knowing he was an alcoholic, that's your choice.
Personally I'm not responsible for anyone's recovery or relapse, including my 31 year old AD.
Life's too short to wake up bitter one day years down the road and hating myself for staying stuck.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
SJLady, when you married him you thought he had vanquished his alcoholism. I'm sure you didn't give much thought to the possibility of a relapse down the line, after several years sober. Don't beat yourself about the head for wanting to have faith in him.
What is your dealbreaker? Where are your boundaries, as anvilhead mentions?
If your boundary is that he needs to attend X number of AA meetings per week in order for you to feel secure enough to stay with him, then he seems to have crossed it already.
But if your boundary is that he doesn't drink again, then I'd suggest you find a way to keep the focus on you and deal with that transgression when it happens.
There is some disagreement about this on these boards, but I'm in the camp where my boundaries are made very clear, in words, even in writing if it's serious enough: If you X, I will be forced to Y, and there will be no going back this time.
Does your husband know where your boundaries are, specifically? Do you?
Answering those questions keeps me on the right path all the time.
Hang in there.
What is your dealbreaker? Where are your boundaries, as anvilhead mentions?
If your boundary is that he needs to attend X number of AA meetings per week in order for you to feel secure enough to stay with him, then he seems to have crossed it already.
But if your boundary is that he doesn't drink again, then I'd suggest you find a way to keep the focus on you and deal with that transgression when it happens.
There is some disagreement about this on these boards, but I'm in the camp where my boundaries are made very clear, in words, even in writing if it's serious enough: If you X, I will be forced to Y, and there will be no going back this time.
Does your husband know where your boundaries are, specifically? Do you?
Answering those questions keeps me on the right path all the time.
Hang in there.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: California
Posts: 39
GiveLove: When I came back I specifically said "no more lies" and he agreed. Now, I'd like to believe that he's telling me the truth, but how can I find out for sure? For instance, last night he came back from a meeting. I asked him if he had gone to a meeting and he said yes. However, he came back earlier than he normally does after a meeting, and he had purchased some books from a book store. I didn't think anything of it at the time, but this morning I looked at the time on the receipt. If the meeting lets out at 9PM, he bought the books before 9PM...so did he really go to a meeting or was he at the bookstore? I know that very few people can go into a bookstore and find exactly what they're looking for in less than 1 minute, so I think that he was at the bookstore the whole time instead of going to a meeting. But how can I find out the truth without antagonizing him or inflaming the situation? I absolutely HATE that I have done things like that, but for me it is worse to be made a fool of. I cannot tolerate being lied to, and he knows that if he's caught lying to me like that again, that's it...I'm done.
I already know exactly what needs done. I need to get away from him. I cannot spend the rest of my life doubting his truthfulness; it's not fair to him and it's not fair to me. I need to get a job as soon as possible.
I already know exactly what needs done. I need to get away from him. I cannot spend the rest of my life doubting his truthfulness; it's not fair to him and it's not fair to me. I need to get a job as soon as possible.
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,582
SJ Lady,
I'm sorry you're going through this. Dishonesty is a tough one to live with, I couldn't.
That is great you know what you need to do. Do you really want to spend your life playing detective? I did it too, and it drove me bats. I have been without my A for 5 or so months and it has taken a toll in a different way, but I am beginningto feel better about myself. I am losing the cynicism that was overwhelming me at one time. My less guarded self is returning and I literally feel lighter.
Miss
I'm sorry you're going through this. Dishonesty is a tough one to live with, I couldn't.
That is great you know what you need to do. Do you really want to spend your life playing detective? I did it too, and it drove me bats. I have been without my A for 5 or so months and it has taken a toll in a different way, but I am beginningto feel better about myself. I am losing the cynicism that was overwhelming me at one time. My less guarded self is returning and I literally feel lighter.
Miss
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,059
sj lady-
i am experiencing very similar trust issues with my ABF. it is making me crazy. i don't believe anything he says, even if he is telling the truth now. that's a good tip with the time stamp on the receipt, but why has it come to this? i feel the same as you, i'd rather just know the truth. i journal everyday what he says he did and it has become clear that he can't keep up with his lies.
it makes me feel sick to be forever suspicious. i'm moving out in 10 days because i don't want to live like this anymore.
i am experiencing very similar trust issues with my ABF. it is making me crazy. i don't believe anything he says, even if he is telling the truth now. that's a good tip with the time stamp on the receipt, but why has it come to this? i feel the same as you, i'd rather just know the truth. i journal everyday what he says he did and it has become clear that he can't keep up with his lies.
it makes me feel sick to be forever suspicious. i'm moving out in 10 days because i don't want to live like this anymore.
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 927
I remember relationships where you never had to check out whether someone was trying to pull the wool over your eyes. I remember relationships when there was love, trust and respect. I remember relationships where you didn't have to protect yourself 24/7/365... etc etc etc.
halcyon days.. huh..
halcyon days.. huh..
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
((( SJ )))
I understand your dilemma. I've been there too. I'm a pretty precise person - and an honest person - and I can't stand lying. But I could never prove that my X was lying to me, and it drove me mad that I was living with one foot in one world and the other foot in another, never able to get comfortable in either one.
We had a conversation here not too long ago about being "hit with a freight train" in order to finally realize things were bad enough to act (see Blessed4x's recent posts) My freight train came in the form of some computer files that ended up in my laptop which proved his infidelity. But for many months before that, I had known in my gut I was being lied to.
What can you do now, rather than just stand there on the tracks and wait for the train?
----Get that job. Pull out all the stops and make it happen. Pretend your life depends on it.
----Keep going to that Al-Anon meeting, and keep moving toward that inner strength that will carry you wherever you decide to go
----Keep track of these little things you stumble over. Keep them in a safe journal or here.
----Clarify your boundaries for yourself, from lying on up: what will you do? Are you sure you are willing to do them? Lay a firm foundation for your next actions.
I know how crazy-making this can be. There are no right or wrong answers...there's just keeping yourself sane, however you need to do it.
I understand your dilemma. I've been there too. I'm a pretty precise person - and an honest person - and I can't stand lying. But I could never prove that my X was lying to me, and it drove me mad that I was living with one foot in one world and the other foot in another, never able to get comfortable in either one.
We had a conversation here not too long ago about being "hit with a freight train" in order to finally realize things were bad enough to act (see Blessed4x's recent posts) My freight train came in the form of some computer files that ended up in my laptop which proved his infidelity. But for many months before that, I had known in my gut I was being lied to.
What can you do now, rather than just stand there on the tracks and wait for the train?
----Get that job. Pull out all the stops and make it happen. Pretend your life depends on it.
----Keep going to that Al-Anon meeting, and keep moving toward that inner strength that will carry you wherever you decide to go
----Keep track of these little things you stumble over. Keep them in a safe journal or here.
----Clarify your boundaries for yourself, from lying on up: what will you do? Are you sure you are willing to do them? Lay a firm foundation for your next actions.
I know how crazy-making this can be. There are no right or wrong answers...there's just keeping yourself sane, however you need to do it.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
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but this morning I looked at the time on the receipt. If the meeting lets out at 9PM, he bought the books before 9PM...so did he really go to a meeting or was he at the bookstore? I know that very few people can go into a bookstore and find exactly what they're looking for in less than 1 minute, so I think that he was at the bookstore the whole time instead of going to a meeting. But how can I find out the truth without antagonizing him or inflaming the situation?
This kind of thinking would be a one way ticket to insanity for me!!!
Why do you need to know?
When I was early in AlAnon it took me a while to STOP thinking and DOING things the way I always had - the way that brought me to so much pain that I finally got into AlAnon. So in the early months of AlAnon I just followed directions. Meaning every time I found myself wanting to be right about something in relation to my brothers' drinking, or found myself needing to "prove" something to myself about their drinking, or just in general found myself more focused on them than me, I turned to my meetings and to the literature and did what they told me to do.
So I surrendered, over and over to my powerlessness over people.
I made little plans that took that focus off of them and brought it back to me.
I disciplined myself to NOT go to their apartments just to see if they're OK...or call them or fish for information.
I gave them over to their HP's and told myself over and over that their life is their own to live in the way they see fit. etc etc etc...
It took effort and discipline and and less thinking and less worrying and wondering!!! In other words, I had to change things about myself pretty dramatically. I could no longer excuse myself, or think I was exceptional and that I had a right to know this or that or get myself into such a frenzy of curiousity and worry about what they were doing or going to do next.
I had to stop making excuses for why I was still focused on them and do the work of not focusing on them!!!!!
It's not easy what you're trying to do - and like GL said - there is no scenario where being judgemental of yourself is useful...I mean you said yourself:
there are certain behaviors that I am not willing to put up with, and alcoholism is one of them.
...but alcoholism is a disease, a progressive mental illness and one of the number one behaviors associated with it is LYING! So even alcoholics in recovery have to work very hard on losing that "behavior" as it becomes their #1 bad "habit." I would stop being surprised, stop playing detective and think about how YOU really want to live.
Might you feel guilty if you leave him? Yes. You are a human being and guilt is a natural response to certain situations. If we had no guilt we might not ever recognize our faults! But do we let guilt be the deciding emotion when we have to make tough decisions? No way! Guilt and shame are behind some of the worst decisions we ever make in our lives!! Ask any codie or alcoholic!!!
Hang in there SJlady - and make a little plan, just for today, to save yourself from spying and obsessing. Put the focus on you and try to figure out or uncover something about yourself with the same fervor!!
peace,
b
This kind of thinking would be a one way ticket to insanity for me!!!
Why do you need to know?
When I was early in AlAnon it took me a while to STOP thinking and DOING things the way I always had - the way that brought me to so much pain that I finally got into AlAnon. So in the early months of AlAnon I just followed directions. Meaning every time I found myself wanting to be right about something in relation to my brothers' drinking, or found myself needing to "prove" something to myself about their drinking, or just in general found myself more focused on them than me, I turned to my meetings and to the literature and did what they told me to do.
So I surrendered, over and over to my powerlessness over people.
I made little plans that took that focus off of them and brought it back to me.
I disciplined myself to NOT go to their apartments just to see if they're OK...or call them or fish for information.
I gave them over to their HP's and told myself over and over that their life is their own to live in the way they see fit. etc etc etc...
It took effort and discipline and and less thinking and less worrying and wondering!!! In other words, I had to change things about myself pretty dramatically. I could no longer excuse myself, or think I was exceptional and that I had a right to know this or that or get myself into such a frenzy of curiousity and worry about what they were doing or going to do next.
I had to stop making excuses for why I was still focused on them and do the work of not focusing on them!!!!!
It's not easy what you're trying to do - and like GL said - there is no scenario where being judgemental of yourself is useful...I mean you said yourself:
there are certain behaviors that I am not willing to put up with, and alcoholism is one of them.
...but alcoholism is a disease, a progressive mental illness and one of the number one behaviors associated with it is LYING! So even alcoholics in recovery have to work very hard on losing that "behavior" as it becomes their #1 bad "habit." I would stop being surprised, stop playing detective and think about how YOU really want to live.
Might you feel guilty if you leave him? Yes. You are a human being and guilt is a natural response to certain situations. If we had no guilt we might not ever recognize our faults! But do we let guilt be the deciding emotion when we have to make tough decisions? No way! Guilt and shame are behind some of the worst decisions we ever make in our lives!! Ask any codie or alcoholic!!!
Hang in there SJlady - and make a little plan, just for today, to save yourself from spying and obsessing. Put the focus on you and try to figure out or uncover something about yourself with the same fervor!!
peace,
b
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