nowinsituation

Some of the responses on ToughChoices' dating thread raised an issue that I struggle with. Specifically Ago's response - on it being the man's traditional role to be the pursuer. I get A LOT of conflicting advice and feedback on this, even between my sponser and my therapist. Some of it my be generational norms rather than gender norms?

I have pretty traditional values, am in my mid-40's, and obviously a female. Being the "pursuer" is WAY out of my comfort zone. I am on an on-line dating service, and I am willing to make the first contact at times; but really think that asking for the first (and even the first few) dates is the man's responsibility.

The vibes I pick up on from some men I have dated is that they expect me to make the "next" move -- after they have made the first phone calls and/or asked me out on the first date. If they directly make this suggestions, I tell them that I am interested in continuing to talk to and/or date them (if I really am); but that I am not comfortable phoning them or asking them out. I generally will send an email "thank you" for the date and say that I hope to see them again.

My sponser -- who is a little older than me, firmly suggests to me that I should let the man make the next move. My therapist -- who is younger than I am, says if I feel like making the next move there is nothing wrong with that. Some of my friends have referred to me as stubborn (LOL).

I do think a lot of it has to do with my insecurity and that I really need the guy to pursue me before I will believe that he is really interested; and fear of rejection if I do call and ... well... get rejected!

Freedom1990

I have pretty traditional values too, much like you described.

Dating just isn't even on my radar right now to be honest. I'm busy with my college classes.

The few 'dates' that I did have over the past 4 years were no big deal-they asked me out. The one guy turned out to be an incredible bore and it was all about him him him!

When I start getting knotted up and feeling insecure about something in regards to the dating scene, that's an indicator for me that I need to do some more internal work.

kj3880

I agree with you, and I am in my mid-forties too. The men we date were raised with the same values probably, so they will be more comfortable with asking. Unless you're liking the younger men, which I don't.

I confess to being a "Rules Girl" and it works for me. I always have more dates than time. And I am almost always the less-interested party. I have horrible taste in men, though, so for now, I'm not dating. I'm going to finish my step work first. But when I feel ready to date again, I certainly won't chase men!

Love,
KJ

GiveLove

I dunno know if there are any norms around this any more, even along generational lines. Things are changing fast, and I'm glad.

Traditionally, it has been the man's responsibility to do the calling and suffer any possible rejection. The status quo used to be basically (and yes, this is just a stinky generalization):

The MAN asks for the first date, in fact all the dates. The MAN brings flowers and chocolate. The WOMAN brings nothing, and sits there like a much-admired flower. The MAN pays for the meal. The WOMAN waits for the next call, the old sitting-by-the-phone thing. The MAN ticks off a certain number of days before calling, so as not to appear desperate. Eventually, the MAN begins to explore whether there might be the possibility of sex. The WOMAN gets to say yes or no........

I just hated all of that posturing. Hated hated hated it. It felt forced, artificial, and unfair. So if I even agree to date someone, I share the risk, the cost, and the responsibility for it. I am not averse to asking, "Hey, want to go to X on Friday?" I split meals, or even spring for both of us if I've had a financial windfall. I (horrors) initiate sex sometimes. Relationships are relaxed, friendly, fun, open, and honest....there is no threat because I am in control of me. I'm driving my own bus.

I'm not above calling someone and saying, "Hey, I know THE RULES say I'm not supposed to ask YOU for a second date but I had such a good time that I wondered if...." Where is the harm in this? Humor greases the places where there's social friction.

I'm 47, and so many in my generation would frown on all of this.

There are women AND men who want to be pursued, because their ego couldn't stand the thought that maybe the relationship's not a good fit -- they'd take it personally, think there's something wrong with them. Speaking just for me, I'm so much happier without all that structure, and I believe it's good for me to develop the courage to face the possibility of "rejection," and put it in its proper perspective.

Shoot, guys have been doing it for hundreds of years

Me? If someone doesn't want to be with me, I sure don't want to be with them: good night, good luck, next!!

Seek out what's comfortable for you, nowinsituation. Whatever it is, make sure it feels good and right. There are no rules any more.

jaimemk

I'm no expert, either lol. But I am a book geek and I really liked Mars and Venus on a Date. I have a 16 year old daughter, 19 yr stepson and 20 yr stepdaughter and I enjoyed dialoging with them about the things I had read in the book. He says, and I know some of you probably really disagree, that men are hardwired to pursue. Who knows. But that has been my experience. The ones I have pursued, I had to continue to "pursue" once we were serious. If you are comfortable calling and setting up dates, etc, then you'd better be comfortable doing it from now on. In my experience. So it's just knowing what you want in a relationship. The man who pursues you, makes you feel sought after, will probably continue to do so. And if you want a man like that... I highly recommend reading that book!

I asked my son what he thought and he agreed. He says he has dated the girls who pursued him, but quickly got bored. A grown man might not put it that way, but I wonder if that is secretly what they are thinking. And you know, who cares. I enjoy being single. I really do. Late nights with my girlfriends, tuna sandwiches and peaches for dinner with my kids, hairy legs, sleep in the middle (all over) the bed. So much so, that I don't have the energy to go looking. But if someone asks me out to dinner... cool! Why not? Maybe I'm a jerk, but it simplifies my life to let them pursue. And I know they really wanted to, are not just agreeing to something to be nice. Both of my brothers agree, as well. My older brother tried to teach me that when I was a kid but I didn't believe him. I do now. But I also think there is some good stuff in GiveLove's response up there.

Just my two cents

GiveLove

I just loved this, Jaime LOL
Pretty tempting, I have to say..........

Freedom1990

Remember that old song they used to play on the jukebox in the beer joints (at least the ones I frequented)? "They say you are the smut queen...Honey I don't think that's truuuuue...so why don't we get drunk...and screwwwwwwww!"

Ago

As a male an indication of interest is intriguing, "pursuit" is not.

An "indication of interest" can take many forms, it can be subtle, or not so subtle.

Pursuit brings to mind the "cougar" mentality, which I personally find distasteful.

An extremely tasteful, very subtle "indication of interest" can land you a relationship IMO, worked for my girl (I am a DEAD man for this)

Pursuit can get your ashes hauled or your biscuit buttered.

If you are interested in a male, an "indication of interest" can maybe help him get over the shyness of asking you out.

The males who respond to "pursuit" will be, as is so accurately portrayed by Sir Mix-a-lot in "Baby's got Back" "chumps that want to hit it and quit it" in my experience.

miyah

[QUOTE=jaimemk;2172264]I'm no expert, either lol. But I am a book geek and I really liked Mars and Venus on a Date.

Hey, I loved that book as well. It opened my eyes to a lot of new ideas.

But really, how many of us really thought that we would be "dating" at this stage of our lives?

I did not much like dating as a teen, and sure don't like it now. I am 56 single again. I have been divorced for 7 years. I have had 3 proposals since the divorce - they scare me.

nowinsituation

Anvilhead -- I think that strategy is what got me into my marriage (LOL). Don't want to make that mistake again!

Ago - thanks for the male perspective. That's what my gut has been telling me. After the relationship is established I am all for initiating plans, picking up the tab, and more of a share and share alike foundation. The early part of the relationship I will let the guy pursue me. The more I think about it, too; is that it is important to be myself no matter what stage of the relationship. If it's not "ME" to be the pursuer, then I am misrepresenting myself. I gotta work on that indication of interest thing...

good_luck

Personally, I decided that one of my problems in previous relationships was the passive role that I (as a female) had taken. It took a LOT of pursuit to land me as a girlfriend, and as a result those that I ended up with had enough missing in their lives and selves to ignore my standoffishness and ambivalence and win me over.

I'm still in the early stages of my new "I will pursue those that I find attractive" phase, so I will surely let you know how it turns out. Right now, this new thing has been pretty balanced, with both of us pursuing the other, and so far, it suits me. (But who knows, right?)

Ago

My girl has three cats

they all have different personalities...facets of her own personality frankly.

The one she "emulated" to "make contact" stays right out of reach, "cruising by" apparently ignoring you, but has this "tail drag" approach, after she cruises by, she reaches back with her tail and drags it across you, if you reach out to pet her, she retreats, it's her game. She approaches where you aren't looking and is gone before you can make a move.

We pursue that which retreats in front of us.

The next one is super friendly, likes getting her pets and treats, is vocal about getting her "needs" met and saying hello.

That is the "social aspect" of her personality.

The third, and most important, is super shy. I had to "hold still" and "create a safe environment" for quite a while (weeks/months) to really meet her.

She is the "alpha" out of the three cats, and the most important part of My Girl's personality.

Groucho Marks said, "Act like a woman can't join your club, and she'll do almost anything to get in."

Works for men too.

You have to do something excellent in their presence, then drop an indication of interest, even eye contact for 1.5 seconds too long can knock a man on his @ss, then retreat.

Men LIKE to pursue.

Men, however are STUPID, they need to be told WHAT to pursue. Subtlety is LOST on most men. The trick is to do "an indication of interest" without it appearing to be any form of pursuit.

Of course I know this because these are all the dirty, underhanded, sneaky tricks my girl used on me to "hook" me, a 220 lb "fish" on 5 lb test.

The truth is, it's fun, we still "play" today.

Romance is fun, go have fun with it. Practice flirting, you don't need to necessarily take these boys home with you.

A moving van isn't really necessary for a second date.

Have fun.

tallulah

I've never pursued a man in my life.. but I've always got the fellas I wanted

I am apparently really bad at noticing when someone fancies me. There was this guy at Uni who practically had to sit on my knee for me to notice he was interested (this was after at least a month of him staring at me in lectures and me being totally oblivious). And more recently, the Doctor... my friend had to say 'errrrr come on, he has sought you out to say 'Hi' every damned time you went to the Hospital and of the hundreds of people he treats everyday he remembers you and you say he's just doing his job'.. I just thought he was being errrrrr nice.

I think subtlety is key but don't be afraid to show you are receptive. Oh and if you walk around with blinkers on (as I am apt to do) you might miss someone who may just be worth the time.