respektingme

You guys are such a wealth of information. Someone wrote about the "designated patient" a few days ago. Man, what awesome info.

Anyway, my AH has been going to AA for years. He hasn't been against counseling necessarily, but he depends on his sponsor a lot. And his sponsor thinks psychiatry is bunk. So part of what my AH has been told is that he drinks because he wants to, no excuses. And if he stays sober long enough, his higher power will remove the desire. And until then, he needs to fake it till he makes it.

Now, I know my AH's mother is abusive and always has been. She's deceptive, manipulative, controlling, religious and still alive. Her abuse didn't end when my AH turned 18. She's been a dominating force in is entire life (he's almost 50). In our first marriage counseling session over a week ago, the psychiatrist said a few things about his relationship with his mother and it's the first time I've seen a crack in his armor. Not looking for him to hate his mother or blame her for his drinking. Just opening his eyes towards the truth, releasing himself from his "designated patient" role, stepping out of the chains of guilt and shame that she has put on him his entire life. Up till now, he has always boasted that he can't relate to people who had problematic childhoods, because his was "perfect".

I saw clarity in my husband's demeanor, eyes and voice for the first time ever last weekend. I believe he wants his self-respect. And I think he's honestly tired of the manipulation.

So in a nutshell, I would say in my personal experience that AA AND counseling have been helpful. AA seems to stop the bleeding (or drinking) and my DH's sponsor has been nothing but a Godsend and a blessing to our lives. The only thing that hasn't helped was his advice that anything other than AA was bunk. I understand that my AH can't look for people to blame as to why he started drinking. But as long as he continues to play the same role in his highly dysfuncitonal family, and he continues to build resentments, it seems like only a matter of time before he drinks again. He can read his daily devotionals, call his sponsor every day, go to AA meetings every day and then stop at a liquor store on the way to his mother's house. She gets to blame him for a laundry list of offenses, he gets to accept the guilt and it works wonderfully as a reason to drink!

Anyway, thoughts?

Ago

If we spent as much time working on ourselves as we do analyzing them we'd all be Gandhi

respektingme

Amen. Wish I had left many years ago. Wish I had set my standards and followed through. Wish I didn't wish my mil was dead every day. Obviously I have enough to work on all on my own.

My life HAS become much better since my AH has become sober, and even better that he is working towards keeping his mother out of our marriage. And to the extent of the subject as to how he got there, to me, is relevant. Not the end all, not a Ghandi moment, but relevant.

Barbara52

Therapy probably would benefit your AH (it benefits msot folks I think). But whether to seek it or not is up to him.

respektingme

It IS up to him. And only now does he realize that therapy might benefit him. Up till now, he's been doing everything he's told word for word from his sponsor. While 99% of everything his sponsor has advised has been terrific, I'm just not sure promoting AA as being the ONLY thing he needed for sobriety was the best answer. Not saying that I have the answer either, but I disagree with that assessment.

Ago

I was speaking for myself, now that I see you "heard" me, I will add this:

I found Counseling/therapy helpful after a few years of sobriety and a few trips through the steps.

Before that, I was still so wrapped up in "my stories" quite frankly therapy wasn't as effective, it takes quite a bit of time to break through denial, it wasn't until I realized I felt like I felt regardless of "what others had done to me" and regardless of "the stories" I was telling myself.

Counseling, like therapy is much like sobriety, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I know many AAers that go to therapy, some get "well" some don't, I know many AAers that don't, some get well, some don't, I know many AAers that dive pretty deeply into spiritual practices, same.

The ones close to me that seem the most "evolved" have done therapy and practiced some eastern religion, Buddhism specifically which includes pretty thorough self examination and intense meditation as a part of their practice, or similar practices, a course in miracles etc, any "spiritual" practice which includes self examination and meditation

If I had a sig other I wanted to attend therapy, I would start attending myself first, then invite her/him, attraction not promotion, a "come do what I am doing" not "do as I say not as I do", that worked with me, I was invited to start attending therapy by someone already attending and after a few couples meetings voluntarily started attending on my own.

GiveLove

Well.....I think that EVERYONE who's troubled should try counseling. That's what it's for - to help us uncover the faulty wiring that make us hurt ourselves the way we do. Anyone who calls it "bunk" might be seeing it as that Woody Allen, see-somebody-every-week-for-twenty-years kind of thing, which is a tiny percentage of the counseling relationships out there.

Hoping he finds help and peace. We all deserve it. What about you? Have you considered counseling to find peace?

LaTeeDa

I think this is a similar question to the other thread about why relapse happens even after rehab. I spent way too many years of my life trying to figure out what would work for him. All I can say is it really doesn't matter whether they go to AA, counseling, rehab, church, yoga, or bowling. The only thing that makes a difference is a desire to change.

It's the same for me. I tried all sorts of ways to get him to stop drinking. Compassion, caretaking, understanding, manipulation, coercion, threats, crying, begging, you name it, I tried it. Finally, I discovered that his drinking was not the source of my unhappiness. It was me. I had to admit that I was the reason I was unhappy. And then I had to commit to the hard work of changing myself. Nothing he did or didn't do solved my problems. I had to be willing to change.

Counseling helped me, but not because counseling is the cure-all. I used it as a tool because I genuinely wanted to change. No outside force can create that desire, it comes from within. Until he has that desire, nothing will work.

L

respektingme

That's exactly how my AH got into counseling. He asked to see my counselor. And he did so without telling his sponsor because he was afraid that he was going against what his sponsor would advise.

Perhaps the assumption is that I dragged him there? I certainly didn't. I said I thought it might be a good idea, and apparently something inside him must have agreed. I stopped trying to force him to do what I wanted a long time ago. I learned that I end up paying the price always when I do that.

I'm just saying, it seemed like something sneaky for him to go see a counselor, like he was betraying his sponsor. I don't know if this is normal or not. I'm not going to challenge his sponsor or suggest that he do so. The man has been a complete asset to our lives.

Freedom1990

I too have sought counseling in addition to AA over the years, and that was after I had established some recovery under my belt. However, I have never had a sponsor poo-poo the idea of turning to outside resources. The Big Book even says there are excellent outside resources we should seek if need be.

LaTeeDa

I just had to LOL at this part. What a crock. It's GOD's fault that he drinks? He hasn't taken away the desire yet? WOW, this is the best blame shifting I have ever heard. If this man is not a professional salesperson, he should be. LOL

L

Ago

You and I read something different there LTD

he was told What is written is pretty typical AA, in AA you are taught you are without an effective mental defense against the first drink, that defense must come from a power greater then yourself.

I don't agree with his sponsors assertion that Psychiatry is "bunk" but it's a view shared by many in AA since the aggregate of recovery from psychiatry is so low (mainly because A's lie to Psychiatrists, and can't lie to other alcoholics, but that's just my opinion) but what his sponsor said is pretty much "the party line" in AA

catlovermi

AAs big book is very clear that it's not the be all end all. It even suggests it's a good idea to go for outside help when warranted.

I think because some old timey sponsors have seen it all and been there, they are highly skeptical of any member wanting to go "outside" AA for solutions, because in their experience it has often been used as an excuse to "go out" and they end up drinking again.

If an AA member is honest and honestly working their program, and feels the need for more professional or educated help sorting through other aspects of their life, there should be no problem. If a sponsor can't accept this, then it's an issue the sponsor has, and HIS sponsor should be brought into the loop. AA members, even sponsors, are only human, and as such have limitations due to their own backgrounds and experiences. Sometimes they forget this, when they have achieved sobriety through AA.

AA was conceived and designed as a system to help people stop drinking, not as a mental health clinic. There is some overlap, but also there are areas where each has its own expertise.

CLMI

respektingme

L, I can't tell if you're just being really direct with your response or if you're angry.

I actually have to run, but I'm pretty sure it says somewhere in the Big Book that a person's higher power will remove the person's desire to drink. If not, I'm totally wrong.

respektingme

That makes a ton of sense. Indeed AH's sponsor is an old-timer with many years of sponsoring others. As you describe, I can understand why he might not agree with the counseling. I think though, if my AH benefits from the counseling, his sponsor will likely notice and not poo poo the idea.

LaTeeDa

Why would I be angry? I was just saying that from and outsider-looking-in perspective, it appears he is pulling off quite the con-job. Attending AA "for years" and still not having his desire to drink "removed" by his HP--what can I say? It just seems like a big load of BS to me.

L

respektingme

L, I'm not arguing with you. The book says "higher power". I tend to believe the "higher power" in this case is the true desire to value one's sobriety. So when they finally WANT to be sober, their desire to keep their sobriety will trump the desire to drink. And yes, it was used for years as an excuse. "My HP hasn't removed my desire to drink yet." It wasn't until he finally realized he actually had a part in making his sobriety happen that he was on the road to recovery. But he was fed that line, and he used it well. I just don't think that's how the line was intended to be used or twisted. It does work as a convenient scapegoat when used that way though.

Ago

An alcoholic can "spin" anything into an excuse to drink, however, it may behoove you to educate yourself on AA if you wish, there are many alcoholics who will have the "desire" to drink for years after they get sober, eventually it goes away, or is "removed" as it were, that wasn't MY experience (thank the F'ing Lord) but the point is, if you come in, and "do the deal" eventually the desire to drink will be removed.

The "party line" as I heard it, was once you raised your hand and identified yourself as an alcoholic, if you drank, you would be doing so "on a lie" because you have admitted what "the problem" is (you) but the "higher power" is very much a part of AA.

What you are told is "God will do for you what you can't do for yourself" that means two things, one, he won't "do for you" what you can do for yourself, but it also means that HP will remove the desire to drink, because alcoholics can't stop drinking on their own.

I don't really have the time and space to completely explain AA here, but everything the sponsor says except for his antipathy for the medical profession (which is actually "wrong" according to the "Big Book") is pretty much "normal" AA.
BB quotes 1st edition et al

AA works for millions and millions of people, more then all other "programs" combined, more then all "abstinent programs" in history. To outsiders it may not make sense, but it does work if the alcoholic truly has a desire to quit and works it.

gns

I have to say I had 2 different therapists and one basically enabled me to remain co-dependent (not really her fault) and one was really great.

The first counselor would listen to me express my concerns and fears, I would feel better and would continue in the same pattern feeling better and not listening to that gnawing "oh **** something is not really right feeling" in my gut. I think my ex abf's therapist also ends up "enabling him" by making him temporarily feel better.

Yoga (as strange as it sounds) and EMDR (second therapist) helped me trust and "stregnthen" my core and gut and ultimately helped the most.

LaTeeDa

And that was exactly my point. It doesn't really seem like that is the case here. So, AA, therapy, or whatever doesn't matter if the desire isn't there.

L