respektingme

Married 16 years. DH has been sober roughly 8 months. His mother is the most controlling, manipulative, deceptive individual I have ever known. She is also an Awana's leader, she's a Sunday school teacher, the minister's assistant and prides herself in her titles. Her husband (Dh's stepfather) is also very active in the church and used to take Awana kids on trips and was the bus driver. He's a raging alcoholic.

Interestingly, DH has always claimed to have a "perfect" childhood. He's almost 50. On occasion, he shared some mild stories of abuse. But today, he told me he can't even remember all the times she beat him as a child. And as tears started down his cheeks, he said he remembers well the nightmares he had growing up. In them, he was running after his mom and dad and couldn't catch up with them.

His mother knows he's an alcoholic. Twice in the past few years, I have asked her to talk to him. Once she asked me what to say. I told her to say anything, whatever she wanted to. And she said nothing. The second time, she told me flat out no. She has been a controlling force to reckon with for all 16 years of my marriage. She has a real insidious way of putting DH down. He admitted today that he's still afraid of her.

I remember hearing once that there are some people who don't want the alcoholic in their lives to get sober. That sounded INSANE. But insane is exactly what she is. I just want to say that it can happen. I can't believe my own eyes. This woman has to keep my husband down, so she can control who his allegiances are to. She challenges his allegiances to her at every turn. She despises me with a passion. She also despised his ex-wife with a passion, plus all of his ex-girlfriends. Anyone who drew his attention away from her was a threat.

Did I mention she was raised by an alcoholic father and an abusive, controlling, irate mother? So the wheel turns. I know I can't change her and I can only change myself. I stopped any direct communications with her a few years ago. Finally today, DH agreed we don't have to visit her town anymore. He may go on occasion, but he finally doesn't blame me for not wanting to be around her. Abuse comes in many forms. The ones who hide their actions behind religion are truly reprehensible in my book.

Has anyone else experienced family members who prefer the A remain drunk?

Freedom1990

I was the first one in many generations of alcoholics (on both sides of the family) to get sober. That has brought a special set of challenges with it.

Are there those who don't like that I upset the apple cart, so to speak of? You bet.

Does it affect my life? Not anymore.

I choose not to have those toxic people in my life.

GiveLove

There are always those who are threatened by the unknowns that come with change, and who make unhealthy decisions because of that.

I have as little contact with those people as possible, and try not to give them my mind space any more than I can help it. I can't change them any more than I can change the alcoholics in my life, and will drive myself equally crazy trying to control them.

Good luck!

Ago

Abuse does come in many forms.

All of it is reprehensible, hidden in religion or not.

Abuse is generally speaking handed down through the generations like a precious family heirloom. So the abusers themselves were abused, and then abuse, and so it goes. I say to those people God bless them. God bless them far far away from me, but God bless them.

Abuse is about fear and control, neither of which is real in this case. As in the fear is an illusion and so is the illusion of control.

I've "pushed back" against abusers and "pulled their covers" and the retaliation was incredible. It was insane. They are so frightened inside when I've challenged their reality the fallout was unlike anything I have ever seen. I mean truly jaw dropping, no one would believe me if I told them kind of stuff.

I have a personal examples of this, which would make Danielle Steel characters look like Peter Pan.

My experience is you are describing co-dependency in it's most toxic form.

Oh, by the way, yes, I've experienced family members and been in a relationship where they preferred their partner drunk although the daily litany of "how they should quit" or various other forms of quacking is heard for the purpose of control.

Part of that control is destroying the self esteem in everybody they come in contact with.

It's called having a "designated patient" in a relationship.

The truth is, it's not about the "DP" getting help or changing, it's about keeping the focus on the "DP" to keep the focus off of themselves and to control the Designated Patient.

We see it here pretty frequently, but this woman sounds a lot like my mother, grandmother, and the woman I was in a relationship with when I got sober originally as well as the relationship I was ending when I arrived here at SR. (see a pattern???..NO hush, go away, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain)

To see some examples of this behavior, read around some threads here when AH/AW gets sober. The daily litany for months and years is "quit drinking quit drinking quit drinking" then the spouse quites drinking and the problems really begin. It would be funny were it not so tragic and painful.

I got to see this behavior first hand when I got sober. It was incredibly illuminating.

Like dealing with an alcoholic, we didn't cause it, can't cure it or control it.

Like you, I had to completely cut off all contact.

Will you and your husband consider therapy? Adult Children of Alcoholics?

Will you consider Alanon?

In my opinion and experience the codependents in my childhood then in adulthood caused as much damage or more then the alcoholics in my life and upbringing.

Because so much of this behavior is cloaked in respectability, the damage is extremely difficult to see or "get to", it takes time and work.

A LOT of time and work.

All I could do was say "No more, This stops here." and start doing the work on myself to make that the truth.

Then of course I found out it was a journey, not a destination, 17 years later, I'm still plugging away.

Good for you for getting some distance, good luck on the next step of healing from it, the resources are out there if you should decide to avail yourself of them.

:ghug

respektingme

Thank you all. Ago, I worded that wrong. I didn't mean to say the abuse is more reprehensible when it comes from someone cloaked in religion. I think I meant to say, in my case, my DH was raised to believe is mother is a "God-fearing, Christian woman". To argue with her is to argue with the Word, and ultimately God himself. She's equivalent to the Pope in DH's family. Truth is, she has limited intellect, no formal education, was raised on a dirt farm and has lived her entire life in a very small midwest town. But based on her behavior, she acts like she's Hitler and Jesus all wrapped up in one. My DH swims in guilt. So I don't know how much he'll really ever open his eyes. Judging from the outside, her house is spotless (literally and figuratively). I guess I'm just saying, if she were a non-church going smoker, whose house was in disarray and she swore every once in a while, I wonder if my DH wouldn't be so blind. Honestly, he's almost 50 and kept saying his childhood was "perfect" until just a few years ago. This woman woke him up by beating him. She claimed to think that he'd be better behaved if she got his beatings in first thing. Of course, half the time my DH talks about it, that was a simple error in judgment and she meant nothing by it.

Of course, she and I have tangled a few times and she whips out the bible in no time. She's like arguing with a jar of peanut butter. You can't get her off.

To compound matters, DH has 3 now grown daughters who she primarily raised. She found both my DH and his ex incompetent to raise the girls and used money to manipulate them all. Long story, but now there are 3 adult children of his who treat him just like his mother does. He's good for his money and that's about it. Sad, but I have little to do with them either.

I am glad he's not drinking, truly I am. But I can see now that the drinking was equivalent to a tear in a major vein. I've been too focused on stopping the bleeding. Now that it's stopped, the realization that we have a major cancer in our marriage is startling but not surprising. I do feel better since I've started being more honest about my feelings. I used to hold back because I didn't want to insult his mother. I told him yesterday that I despise her and have often wished her dead. Felt good to get it off my chest. And he understood! Oddly enough. When he was drinking, he would have been highly insulted. I just hope he continues to search for the truth in his relationship with her. And I hope we're able to work through this cancer and make it out in once piece.

We just started marriage counseling. I have been to Al-Anon and I need to make it more of a priority. Our church offers free Christian Counseling. I'm leery of Christian Counseling. The last time we went, the counselor whipped out the "Women are to submit to their husbands" bit. I want honest counseling. We need it.

Freedom1990

Perhaps with you opening up about your feelings in regards to her, the door has been opened up for him in looking at his feelings too.

I'd be leery too of the Christian counseling for the exact same reason you mentioned!

Get yourself involved more with Alanon. It's been a lifesaver for me!

:ghug :ghug

dothi

Repeated for truth (thanks Ago!). I have seen this in my own family, who uses my sister as a scrapegoat. They push, smother, question her ideas, are oblivious to her achievements, and run her down behind her back. If I had a quarter for every time I heard, "I don't know about your sister, I just worry about her sometimes..." > prelude to one-sided discussion about how shi$$y her decisions are... Talk about an environment where someone is set up to fail.

She lived a very unstable lifestyle for a while, but somehow miraculously and on her own volition, she pulled through. Now she is living on her own and going back to school. This has been hard on my AF, because now no one is doing worse in their life than he is. You would not believe some of the alcoholic "logic" he tries to use to pull his own family down (no of us have addiction issues, but we share ACoA traits). I think he is afraid that if we get too healthy, we will leave him. Ironically, we might actually want to stay and support his health if he didn't try to control so much. It's a lose-lose situation. Sounds like there could be some parallels here with your MIL.

Boy oh boy, I feel for your husband because that need to ESCAPE the pressure is very heavy. And I hear what you're saying about the manipulation tactics - it's the kind of stuff you can only believe if you live with it. Otherwise trying to explain it just makes you sound crazy.


Keep in mind that not every Al-anon group fits quite the same way, so if you and your husband aren't comfortable, keep looking for another one. Send your husband towards this forum - there's also an Adult Children of Alcoholics forum that he could flip through. He can also feel free to post as he's working through his memories and trying to make sense of them. Reading other people's stories might also help off-load some guilt.

Ultimately, for your husband, I would recommend seeing a counsellor for a while. Childhood stuff goes too deep to figure out on your own, and as his wife, you are limited in how much you can help him. It sounds like he needs to do some self-work, and talking one-on-one with a professional can really facilitate the process. I shudder to think of where I would be in my life now had I not sought a counsellor a few years ago when family issues (many alcohol-related) came to a head.

I also highly recommend the following books. Worse come to worse if you feel stuck and can't find anyone to talk to, just reading these books might help calm your anxiety.

The Complete ACOA Sourcebook: Adult Children of Alcoholics at Home, at Work and in Love by Janet Woititz and Robert Ackerman.
Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life by Susan Forward and Craig Buck

Ago

I got what you were trying to say as far as "cloaked in religion"

My experience with abuse has been it's always been cloaked in "righteousness" of some sort or another, whether hidden behind religion or pseudo "societal acceptable norms". I'm not saying this is how it always is, but it's the form it's always appeared in my life.

The abusers in my life have always been well liked, charming, intelligent people, that no one would ever believe could be abusive.

A few things that helped me recognize verbal abuse and the tools used for manipulation were found in this sticky http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...bal-abuse.html and especially this article Physical & Emotional Abuse Forum: Worth Reading and re-posting... - DailyStrength

I have found people abused as children tend to have a few patterns in common, and although the second article is slanted towards male abusers as they are more common, reading it was eye opening to say the least.

The "smoke and mirror" tactics used by abusers to return the focus on "you" are highly effective, only by reading about it was I able to start recognizing them as not being specific to "the abuser", in her case it happens to be religion and the Bible she uses as her vehicle to justify her behavior.

Anyway, generally speaking, the advice given here is to keep the focus on ourselves, but I found by reading about the patterns of abuse and manipulation and recognizing it for what it was allowed me to start moving forward and working on myself.

One of the over riding patterns of abuse is to make the victim question their sanity and perceptions (Gaslighting)

It sounds like your MIL uses her religion as her "gaslighting" vehicle

Anyway, for me, I needed to see what was being done to me before I could start taking steps in order to walk away from it and start doing the work to heal from it.

It's "crazy-making"...literally, so once I realized that, I could start beginning to trust my own perceptions and "gut" feelings again because that's the first thing that gets "broken down" in an abusive relationship in my experience.

At some point the victim believes they deserve to be treated like that at the same time thinking "it's not so bad" all the while doubting it's even abuse, and then part of the dynamic is the "double bind" where the abuser behaves so sweetly part of the time, and especially to outsiders, so you doubt the abuse is even taking place.

It's a very confusing thing, then, for me what happened, was I began to have a deep underlying rage but not understand why, I mean I could point at events that angered me, but.....hard to explain, but suffice it say, after a period of time I started displaying the characteristics of my abuser.

I had no idea I was even angry until I attended my first therapy/couples counseling session shortly after getting sober, my therapist poked around a bit and within five minutes had me crying helplessly in anger and rage I didn't even know I had.

(I had been the designated patient and practicing alcoholic in a relationship. My girlfriend had a dog once that wouldn't "mind" or "listen" to her, she tied it up on a rope about a foot long and beat it horribly with a two by four, by the time I got sober, I felt like that dog)

No one ever believed this woman was capable of that behavior, years later, after we broke up, she even tried to "clean her side of the street" by telling people that "Andrew was the emotional adult behind closed doors" and that she had been incredibly abusive towards me, that behavior was seen as her trying to cover for me and further evidence what a great gal she was (she's the one that told me this by the way, she had quite a few years of therapy and CODA meetings at this point, she was working on her own recovery by then)

I also use the "peanut butter" analogy as well, except I say it's like sticking your head in a jar of peanut butter, you can't think, or see, and nothing works (like sticking clockworks in peanut butter)
Ummm.....yeah.....the abuse always seems .....hard to explain, like "she punched my teddy bear" or something, you tell people and see 'the look"....but she knows you love that teddy bear or something, you know? Very insidious

Anyhooo, I am just coffee yammering at this point, congratulations on getting away and for taking the steps you are taking, I know how hard that family of origin stuff can be, prayers your way.