Help me reconcile something
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Help me reconcile something
First I'll give my complete story since i don't know if I have done that before...I am divorced from my AH husband. We were married foralmost 9 years and had one child out of wedlock prior to marriage. we were actually engaged to be married when I became pregnant the first time. At that time, I lived approx. 3 hours from him and we saw each other on weekends. When I got pregnant, he wanted to moved the marriage up and move me to his home 3 hours away. I was terrified and couldn't do it. I was in a job with decent pay and had benefits. I wanted to wait until after the baby was born to move. With this situation, his drinking became apparantly out of control and he would show up at my place drunk and clingy. We broke it off completely, and I had my baby while he married another woman one month after the baby was born. Fastforward 2 years. He worked out of town alot on his job and would frequently call me and use our daughter as an excuse. He divorced his first wife and we married approx. 6 months later. He continued to travel frequently on his job and I found out that he visited strip clubs, horse races and and other avenues during his trips. His excuse was he had to entertain clients OTJ. He would also stay up almost all night at our house at least monthly, getting drunk and listening to the Grateful Dead constantly. Needless to say, this put a strain on our marriage. About 1 month after our 2nd child was born, he got his first DWI since we had been married(He already had about 4, but all of them were 10 years old or older). Then he got another one a year later. AXH makes very good money, so he usually paid his way outta things. About a year later, he left me for the first time, saying he wasn't happy. We had two houses at that time in different states, and he agreed to move into one and pay on it till it sold. Well, he got an apt. instead and it foreclosed. My family and I got the other one sold and I bought the one I currently live in with the proceeds of the sale. After about 6 months, he wanted to come home. I let him, and it was then that I discovered or uncovered most of the real story. He ahd taken out some of his 401 K while he was gone and spent it. Come tax time, I got the statement in the mail and was floored. We owed quite a bit that year. Then some mail came in one day for him with a diff. post office box (one we had never had together) that he apparently had taken out years before. My codependency went into full swing then and I was paranoid, suspicious and started investigating him myself. I found out that he used hookers, escort services, lied aout where he really was during business trips, created "fake" business trips, was using hard drugs and sometimes spending up to 2 grand a night on these binges. It devastated me. After kicking him out twice,2 rehab stints during marriage among other things, I divorced him this past fall.
Now, I have been going to Al-anon and reading and researching things for myself since all this transpired. I have been trying to rebuild my self-esteem, self-image and find my part of all of this to avoid repeating the pattern. One of the things that I run across that makes me feel guilty at times is the whole notion of comparing alcoholism to someone with cancer. I frequently see that people say that they wouldn't leave someone with cancer, so why would you leave an alcoholic? Well, I personally have never read about cancer patients running around doing some of the things that my X did. While I am sure alcoholism definitely had some role in his dealings, I was never okay with excusing his behavior because of alcoholism, especially since it kept recurring. Now my X usually felt horrible about all of these things after the fact, but he never developed honesty with me that I needed and he did not stop the behaviors. Does anyone else have a prblem with the cancer/alcohol analogy? If not, why am I seeing this wrong?
Now, I have been going to Al-anon and reading and researching things for myself since all this transpired. I have been trying to rebuild my self-esteem, self-image and find my part of all of this to avoid repeating the pattern. One of the things that I run across that makes me feel guilty at times is the whole notion of comparing alcoholism to someone with cancer. I frequently see that people say that they wouldn't leave someone with cancer, so why would you leave an alcoholic? Well, I personally have never read about cancer patients running around doing some of the things that my X did. While I am sure alcoholism definitely had some role in his dealings, I was never okay with excusing his behavior because of alcoholism, especially since it kept recurring. Now my X usually felt horrible about all of these things after the fact, but he never developed honesty with me that I needed and he did not stop the behaviors. Does anyone else have a prblem with the cancer/alcohol analogy? If not, why am I seeing this wrong?
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Cancer is a disease. Alcoholism is a disease. That's where the analogy ends for me. I take that back. People with cancer do everything they do to put it into remission. I do what is necessary to keep my alcoholism/addictions in remission. My 31 year old AD however chooses to do nothing to put her alcoholism/addictions in remission.
There is nothing I have learned in Alanon that told me to go down with the sinking ship because the captain at the wheel had the disease of alcoholism.
There is nothing I have learned in Alanon that told me to go down with the sinking ship because the captain at the wheel had the disease of alcoholism.
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I certainly have not learned that in Al-anon either. Al-Anon is useful for me because it is helping me own up to my part of the marriage demise and find myself again...
I find these analogies on the internet and in some readings I've done, and they harp heavily on the disease component and the compulsion part. While I understand that, I refuse to believe that they can't help themselves by not putting themselves in the situations to begin with and by not taking that first drink. I guess my guilt is derived from not taking the disease part seriously while it was happening. I focused on what it did to me and not on his problems at all...and I did not like I felt. In fact, truthfully, during those moments, I didn't think about him at all....That is my selfishness side, I guess.
I find these analogies on the internet and in some readings I've done, and they harp heavily on the disease component and the compulsion part. While I understand that, I refuse to believe that they can't help themselves by not putting themselves in the situations to begin with and by not taking that first drink. I guess my guilt is derived from not taking the disease part seriously while it was happening. I focused on what it did to me and not on his problems at all...and I did not like I felt. In fact, truthfully, during those moments, I didn't think about him at all....That is my selfishness side, I guess.
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Take those things like 'not leaving the alcoholic because it's a disease' with a grain of salt, hon. As I grew in my own recovery, I became more confident in that small quiet voice within that told me I was indeed moving in the right direction.
When we were enmeshed in the insanity that came with loving an active alcoholic, we did the best that we could with what we had at the time. Now we are striving to become healthier people, more aware, learning from our mistakes!
In this day and age, even though you will still find some stigma attached to alcoholism/addiction, there is no excuse for an alcoholic/addict not to find help. Hell it's damned near on every street corner. I went through rehab in a tiny town of 3000. We have 3 AA meetings a week here, and an intensive IOP program too.
We don't live in the dark ages anymore.
You just keep doing what you are doing for yourself and that precious little one! :ghug :ghug
When we were enmeshed in the insanity that came with loving an active alcoholic, we did the best that we could with what we had at the time. Now we are striving to become healthier people, more aware, learning from our mistakes!
In this day and age, even though you will still find some stigma attached to alcoholism/addiction, there is no excuse for an alcoholic/addict not to find help. Hell it's damned near on every street corner. I went through rehab in a tiny town of 3000. We have 3 AA meetings a week here, and an intensive IOP program too.
We don't live in the dark ages anymore.
You just keep doing what you are doing for yourself and that precious little one! :ghug :ghug
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Take the alcoholism out of the equation. The things he did would have led me to divorce that man any way. How about you?
His using alcoholism as the excuse/reason for his intolerable behaviors doesn't change the fact that they are intolerable ya know.
His using alcoholism as the excuse/reason for his intolerable behaviors doesn't change the fact that they are intolerable ya know.
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Originally Posted by Barbara52 
Take the alcoholism out of the equation. The things he did would have led me to divorce that man any way. How about you?
His using alcoholism as the excuse/reason for his intolerable behaviors doesn't change the fact that they are intolerable ya know.
His using alcoholism as the excuse/reason for his intolerable behaviors doesn't change the fact that they are intolerable ya know.
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I agree with what has been said in that the cancer/alcoholism analogy only goes so far with me. It is not that I dismiss the severity of the disease of alcoholism, I just believe that it falls more in the line of a mental disease or disorder rather than a systemic one.
In the case of mental disease or defect there is still a legal requirement of those affected to seek the appropriate care whether it is therapy or pharmacological help, to control destructive behaviors brought on by their disease or disorder. (I do not know of a cancer, maybe a brain tumor?, that causes destructive behaviors.)
A common issue with some sufferers of mental illness is the delusion that with meds or therapy they are well (no voices, no destructive impulses) so they believe they no longer needs the meds and stop taking them putting themselves and other at risk. In some cases mandatory treatment or committment to a hospital is required.
I think this relates to alcoholism more so than cancer. My ABF drinks because he enjoys it and it numbs negative feelings. When he drinks he feels fine so he is in complete denial that he has a drinking problem or any negative feelings that need to be addressed.
I'm sick so I take medication. When I take medication, I'm not sick so I stop the medication.
I'm unhappy so I drink too much. When I drink, I'm happy and don't notice that I drink too much.
Would I leave a mentally ill individual who refused to take care of their illness and it threatened my well being? Yes.
Would I leave a person sick with cancer who refused to take care of their illness? No. If it threatened my well being (how, I don't know)? Yes.
Would I leave either that sought treatment and never wanted to be ill again? No.
Just my thoughts on it.
Alice
In the case of mental disease or defect there is still a legal requirement of those affected to seek the appropriate care whether it is therapy or pharmacological help, to control destructive behaviors brought on by their disease or disorder. (I do not know of a cancer, maybe a brain tumor?, that causes destructive behaviors.)
A common issue with some sufferers of mental illness is the delusion that with meds or therapy they are well (no voices, no destructive impulses) so they believe they no longer needs the meds and stop taking them putting themselves and other at risk. In some cases mandatory treatment or committment to a hospital is required.
I think this relates to alcoholism more so than cancer. My ABF drinks because he enjoys it and it numbs negative feelings. When he drinks he feels fine so he is in complete denial that he has a drinking problem or any negative feelings that need to be addressed.
I'm sick so I take medication. When I take medication, I'm not sick so I stop the medication.
I'm unhappy so I drink too much. When I drink, I'm happy and don't notice that I drink too much.
Would I leave a mentally ill individual who refused to take care of their illness and it threatened my well being? Yes.
Would I leave a person sick with cancer who refused to take care of their illness? No. If it threatened my well being (how, I don't know)? Yes.
Would I leave either that sought treatment and never wanted to be ill again? No.
Just my thoughts on it.
Alice
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Originally Posted by baileyboop
I also come from a very strong Christian background where divorce is highly frowned upon.
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Originally Posted by baileyboop
This is exactly how I feel when I step back from the situation. But when I do this, I feel selfish. I have two daughters from this relationship. I also come from a very strong Christian background where divorce is highly frowned upon. Maybe I need to re-evaluate why this analogy makes me feel guilty. Obviously, I have more work to do...Thanks for the replys thus far.
There was a thread here on SR not too very long ago that actually got into the subject of divorce and where the actual wedding vows originated from. I'll do a search and see if I can find it. For better or worse does NOT include bringing children up in a home with active alcoholism addiction for the sake of those vows.
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Found the thread! If you go to page 2, and after a few posts, you'll see where the wedding vows originated:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...sion-time.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...sion-time.html
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Originally Posted by Barbara52
Even Christ saw divorce as a valid option in the case of adultery dear. And the rest of the Bible gives other acceptable reasons. Please do not think all divorce is a sin. It is not. Perhaps talk to your pastor about your fears on this? {hugs}
Last edited by BohemiMamaof3; 03-21-2009 at 02:27 PM. Reason: clarity
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Hi there gang, and what a wonderful thread
I'll toss in my .02 worth. I don't like the cancer analogy either, the one that works for me is "heart disease".
I actually have a serious heart condition. Got lots of doctors, meds and been hospitalized many times. I have been told quite clearly that I am _not_ allowed to fly an airplane. In the USA, it is illegal for people with my condition to fly, no excuses.
I am also not allowed to eat pizza, although legally I can. I happen to _love_ pizza. In fact, pretty much everything I love to eat I'm not allowed to have.
What if I were to ignore the law, and my doctors? Get in a plane, take it up for a ride, and have chest pains while I'm up there. The plane crashes, several people get killed on the ground, but I miraculosly walk away with minor injuries.
Would you feel sorry for me cuz I have a bad heart? Would you forgive me for flying an airplane because it's not my fault I have a bad heart?
You _can_ feel sorry for me cuz I have a bad heart, nothing wrong with that. But what would be completely insane would be to allow me to keep flying airplanes. Having a bad heart does not excuse me from being a responsible member of society.
Suppose I insisted on eating pizza, lying around on the couch and never went to see my doctor. I'd end up in the hospial again, and again, and again. I'd lose my job, lose my home, and my spouse would have to pay the medical bills, the rent, the groceries. And for what? So I can enjoy eating pizza?
Having a bad heart does not excuse be from being a responsible member of a marriage.
The way I understand marriage it's supposed to be a partnership. Both people give 100% effort to be the best spouse they can be. Otherwise it's no longer a marriage, it's just a roomate arrangement.
As long as _I_ give 100% effort to be the best I can be, to follow docs orders, take my meds, do my physical therapy, eat healthy, go to lots of meetigs, talk to my sponsor, work the steps, and tread my lady with respect and dignity then I can expect the same 100% in return.
If I'm not getting back 100%, then I'm not in a marriage. With my ex-wife I was in denial, and I _thought_ I was in a marriage. But it wasn't.
I have a bad heart, and if my lady left me in the hospital because she didn't want to deal with it, then it would be bad on her part. If I quit working on my recovery, both for my heart condition and my addiction conditions, then she has every right to leave, because I am no longer a partner.
Mike
I'll toss in my .02 worth. I don't like the cancer analogy either, the one that works for me is "heart disease".
I actually have a serious heart condition. Got lots of doctors, meds and been hospitalized many times. I have been told quite clearly that I am _not_ allowed to fly an airplane. In the USA, it is illegal for people with my condition to fly, no excuses.
I am also not allowed to eat pizza, although legally I can. I happen to _love_ pizza. In fact, pretty much everything I love to eat I'm not allowed to have.
What if I were to ignore the law, and my doctors? Get in a plane, take it up for a ride, and have chest pains while I'm up there. The plane crashes, several people get killed on the ground, but I miraculosly walk away with minor injuries.
Would you feel sorry for me cuz I have a bad heart? Would you forgive me for flying an airplane because it's not my fault I have a bad heart?
You _can_ feel sorry for me cuz I have a bad heart, nothing wrong with that. But what would be completely insane would be to allow me to keep flying airplanes. Having a bad heart does not excuse me from being a responsible member of society.
Suppose I insisted on eating pizza, lying around on the couch and never went to see my doctor. I'd end up in the hospial again, and again, and again. I'd lose my job, lose my home, and my spouse would have to pay the medical bills, the rent, the groceries. And for what? So I can enjoy eating pizza?
Having a bad heart does not excuse be from being a responsible member of a marriage.
The way I understand marriage it's supposed to be a partnership. Both people give 100% effort to be the best spouse they can be. Otherwise it's no longer a marriage, it's just a roomate arrangement.
As long as _I_ give 100% effort to be the best I can be, to follow docs orders, take my meds, do my physical therapy, eat healthy, go to lots of meetigs, talk to my sponsor, work the steps, and tread my lady with respect and dignity then I can expect the same 100% in return.
If I'm not getting back 100%, then I'm not in a marriage. With my ex-wife I was in denial, and I _thought_ I was in a marriage. But it wasn't.
I have a bad heart, and if my lady left me in the hospital because she didn't want to deal with it, then it would be bad on her part. If I quit working on my recovery, both for my heart condition and my addiction conditions, then she has every right to leave, because I am no longer a partner.
Mike
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I have a bad heart, and if my lady left me in the hospital because she didn't want to deal with it, then it would be bad on her part. If I quit working on my recovery, both for my heart condition and my addiction conditions, then she has every right to leave, because I am no longer a partner
Interesting that you say this particular stance, because this is how he and his family see me....I left him when he was trying....Well, what constitutes trying? How do you draw that line? He went to AA mettings at times...he went to rehab a couple of times...He did seem sincere in trying to beat it at times.....And yet, the same 'ol same 'ol eventually came out....here's what I saw....he went to rehab the first time when I kicked him out.....I evntually let him come back home with conditions-conditions he agreed to. When he chose to break those conditions, he did so without ever consulting me-he did it cause he wanted to. The second time he entered rehab was after I had kicked him out the second time and he was going to be terminated from his jobs because of the excessive binging. He went cause he was not gonna have a job if he didn't.. I guess to make a long story short..he tried only when he wanted to try and usually when he felt threatened...He was allowed to "change his mind"-yet I'm not suppose to break my vows cause he had a sickness and I knew he did and married him anyway(according to his family) BTW, I knew AXH drank when we married...We certainly did not have a conversation about his tellig me he was an alkie and would I be okay with it kinda thing.....The thing is you really don't know what you are getting into until you experience it and learn from that experience. I had no idea was alcoholism really was until I married to one and had to deal with it on a daily basis. And I cetainly didn't attribute alcoholism to some of the behaviors that he engaged in while we were married...Kinda like that saying you live and learn....I definitely learned the hard way.
Thanks for the responses.
Interesting that you say this particular stance, because this is how he and his family see me....I left him when he was trying....Well, what constitutes trying? How do you draw that line? He went to AA mettings at times...he went to rehab a couple of times...He did seem sincere in trying to beat it at times.....And yet, the same 'ol same 'ol eventually came out....here's what I saw....he went to rehab the first time when I kicked him out.....I evntually let him come back home with conditions-conditions he agreed to. When he chose to break those conditions, he did so without ever consulting me-he did it cause he wanted to. The second time he entered rehab was after I had kicked him out the second time and he was going to be terminated from his jobs because of the excessive binging. He went cause he was not gonna have a job if he didn't.. I guess to make a long story short..he tried only when he wanted to try and usually when he felt threatened...He was allowed to "change his mind"-yet I'm not suppose to break my vows cause he had a sickness and I knew he did and married him anyway(according to his family) BTW, I knew AXH drank when we married...We certainly did not have a conversation about his tellig me he was an alkie and would I be okay with it kinda thing.....The thing is you really don't know what you are getting into until you experience it and learn from that experience. I had no idea was alcoholism really was until I married to one and had to deal with it on a daily basis. And I cetainly didn't attribute alcoholism to some of the behaviors that he engaged in while we were married...Kinda like that saying you live and learn....I definitely learned the hard way.
Thanks for the responses.
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You know, people who DON'T live with the alcoholic have no idea what it is really like. I don't understand why they think we would have to stay ONE DAY in a marriage where someone chose booze over our love and committment to each other. I don't care how "badly" we were treated or to what degree. Any choice for something other than honoring each other as lovers, friends and partners is wrong and we do not deserve to be treated as "second". It's wrong, period, and we have every right to say "No More" and treat ourselves with the love and respect we deserve. If that means saying I've had enough of this treatment, no matter how bad it was or to what level, it is nobody else's business. They aren't living our life and really have no idea how soul-damaging a bad marriage or an alcoholic marriage is. You deserve to be treated lovingly and respectfully. There is nothing wrong with YOU. Please don't allow anyone to make you doubt your saving yourself.
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