bragi

I notice I spend a lot of time fearing that someone "might be" angry at me, and trying to avoid peoples' anger and judgment (which in turn probably keeps me out of a good deal of social situations, which saddens me).

I feel like this must be a common trait. Can anyone point me to any resources or books on this topic?

Thanks

guiab

Bragi,
I go through a lot of those thoughts myself. Only lately, going through the Steps, have I seen how much thoughts like 'what bad things are they thinking about me' take up a big amount of my brain's bandwidth.
It is definitely an ACOA trait - You learn to presume that the family's problems are somehow your fault, that you are the one making the mistakes. There is an addiction, sort-of, to thoughts of guilt and self-blame.

Unlike true addictions, with this one it is a little harder to put down the bottle, since its in our heads!
And as sure as hell there was no point at which the addiction could have been called 'fun' - As in 'Damn, that was one tasty pint of Guilt'!
It's an obsessive thought, nonetheless, and I am using the Steps to work through it like its an an addiction.

This is only my experience, but all these thoughts make me realize how unbelievably self-centered I am. And not in a good way, like a diva or pro athlete. It made me a very good one-person Guilt factory. If guilt could be harnessed for energy we alanon-ers could outdo nuclear fusion, hot or cold.

But if you are like me you kinda know that you are probably have not done anything that could get you on anyone's list of irritants. Actually, I am only capable of doing really bad things to a small handful of people who wouldn't let me be ignorant of my misdeed for more than 24 hours.

From this forum I got a very good piece of advice:
'I am not that f****** important'

Really, If I disappeared tomorrow, everyone in my little world would still go around with their same little collection of worries and pleasures. Roofs will leak, no one will win the lottery, mud season will come, and mid-terms will suck.
I am capable of doing some very good things for my own recovery, and I can do alot to support all those I know who are also walking their own path of recovery.
I hope this helps. Other will likely have good suggestions for books and other places to go for more help.

bragi

grewupinabarn,

Your post was very valuable. It's good to have some validation, y'know?

It's surprising how long it takes to figure out (and re-figure out! )these issues.

What you said about how we "probably don't ever irritate everyone" is fantastic. It can feel like it though, can't it? Standing up for myself, or bringing up a problem or a need I have, or getting mad at someone can feel so dangerous. And even though, time after time, nothing happens and everything's fine, everything feels so treacherous and inches away from busting at the seams. Why is that?

You mentioned that the root of this is in blaming ourselves for our family's condition. I know that my mom (the raging alcoholic of the family) is (and was) very controlling, and many times would get really mad at everyone if we didn't feel or think the way she wanted us to. Many, many times she would say how our family was horrible, and how she gave up her life (career) for us, and we were letting her down and everything was terrible.

My mom also spent a lot of time telling me and my sister how terrible our father was, and what a deadbeat he was, etc. So I grew up hating him. It's true he wasn't the best father, and he was distant, and should've done something for us kids, or stopped my mom's drinking, but if there was one "enemy" in the family, it was my mom. It's taken almost 29 years, but I'm finally coming to peace with who my dad is.

As far as my mom goes, a week or two ago I finally read her the riot act. All of the pent-up rage, hatred, anger and resentment came out in one phone call. The story is that I heard from my sister that my mom - drunk of course - started screaming at, swearing at, and berating my sister's boyfriend for no reason. I had had enough: I was not going to let my mother get in the way of my sister being able to have a relationship. I called up my mom and tore into her, and at the end of the call, told her that she drove our dad away, our dad's family away, her side of the family away, and now she was driving her own children away, and if she didn't stop drinking, she'd never see me again.

Phew, this sort of turned into a brain dump :P

Anyway, regarding blaming myself for all of that, I don't have a whole lot of conscious awareness of doing that, but I'd like to read more about it. Is there one book that talks more about how that works than others?

Thanks!

guiab

Wow, Bragi, that does say it well. I had been thinking that my fears resulted in my anger at others. (And this means that I am still struggling with it.) It actually may be the other way around - a need/desire to express anger, or even resentment, creates fear. Given how risky expressing anger could be growing up with AF or AM (I had both), your view makes more sense. There may even be a bit of a vicious cycle - anger creates fear, that creates more anger (as you can't express that anger safely), and so on.

It sounds like some of that anger came out in that phone call.

It is difficult but we can makes steps to stop the madness. As I said I am reading a lot of the 12 Step material on this forum (some really good stuff) and attending Alanon meetings.
As for books, there are many specifically written for ACOAs. With all the other work-related reading I do I haven't gotten to them. (or, ummm, it could be procrastination!)
Those written by Janet G. Woititz (Adult Children of A's, and Self-Sabotage) are very useful from what I have read here.
There is also a good list of books, plus a really good acoa blog, at
Guess What Normal Is
The blogger has lots of good insights, including a good dose of 'get going' assertions.
Have you read over the 'Guilt' stickie? I recently re-read it and it was helpful.

SerenityGirl

Bragi, have you ever read any of melody beattie's Books on co-dependency..I grew up in an alcoholic home also...I find her books very helpful...

bragi

Ha! One of our favorite passtimes, right?

A book on procrastination (Procrastination: Why You Do It, What to Do About It) is how I first figured out that my mother (and maybe father) was an alcoholic, and how I got started down this path. That's a great book.

bragi

I do have Codependent No More, and that's a great book. I first started reading it before I fully came to grips and accepted that my mom (and maybe father) was a bad alcoholic. I'm reading it again now, after the fact, and it's even more helpful -- I'm past the point of questioning whether it applies to me, and now I'm just letting it help me.

Can you recommend any of her other books? I noticed she has a brand new "sequel" to Codependent No More out. Is it any good?

tromboneliness

Ya! I wanted to jump into this thread, but you pretty much covered it like a blanket! I'm extremely confrontation-averse, which makes it difficult to deal with situations at work, in the business world, dealing with landlords, store owners, tax clients... anyone! Instead of tackling things head-on, I avoid them.

The dispose-all in our apartment has not been working for a year and a half or so. I mentioned it to our landlord at the time, but haven't brought it up since. He's a totally nice guy, and I'm sure if I bugged him about it at all, he'd say, no problem, I'll send my guy up to replace it. But I can't even bring myself to take on even that minor a "confrontation." Pathetic, isn't it?

Time for another dramatic reading of When I Say No, I Feel Guilty, by Manuel J. Smith, which has been helpful in the past -- it's about assertiveness training and contains discussion of the problem, and exercises you can practice (that work!) to develop assertiveness and be more direct with people.

T

Tish28

Wow!! Everything that you all have said on here is so eerily TRUE!!

I am a pill addict and an ACOA. I have never known anything else. My alcoholic mother terrifies me. She seems to have all the ready replies that cut me to the quick, and I am 43 for goodness sake. Today I have a partner, who frightens me ( non alcoholic or substance user) too. I am afraid of his tempers and losing him. And tonight I am afraid of being afraid. It stinks. I literally start to sweat and panick if I have to confront someone. I want to confront my partner, but he will always have the last cruel word.I am putting off him getting angry with me.
The bottom line is that I am afraid of confronting him. Confronting him feels so dangerous.
Any ES&H for me?

Tish28

I'm sorry, my post wasn't very clear. It's way over bed time here in France!!
Sleep deprivation never allows me to express anything very well.

Any insights would gratefully received.

Bonne nuit,
Tish

dothi

Hey Tish28, welcome to the forums. Please feel free to start a new thread introducing yourself (otherwise your questions might go unnoticed buried in this thread)

I have found that before I could address my well-being in the present, I had to find perspective on my past. I'm also an ACoA and was a blossoming control-freak for a while. I was ridden with so much anxiety that I just could not relax at get-togethers and did not know how to have fun. When I looked back on my childhood, it was plagued with instability. My codie mom tried to leave my AF numerous times, and there were many christmases where she decided not to celebrate (so no decorations or gifts) because she was angry at AF, who was binging too much to notice that his kids were sitting at home, scared, miserable, and forgotten. I was the oldest child and constantly trying to compensate for the instability me AND my siblings were experiencing. As an adult in relationships, I came off as domineering because I was so used to not trusting other adults to take care of me or themselves (so I might as well be in charge, right?). I was also very confused when people would get frustrated with my controlling nature, because in my mind I was doing what had always worked for me as a child.

The problem with ACoAs is that as adults we still react like children to situations that trigger those strong emotions of fear, abandonment, guilt, blame, you name it. Those reactions don't always work in the adult world, but changing those old habits is challenging because they've been reinforced by YEARS of upbringing. Check out the stickies at the top of the forum, and below are a couple of books I found very helpful. They really helped me sort out my childhood reactions and help me troubleshoot areas that I needed to improve on.


The Complete ACOA Sourcebook: Adult Children of Alcoholics at Home, at Work and in Love by Janet Woititz and Robert Ackerman.
Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life by Susan Forward and Craig Buck

GingerM

Hi all,

I've been away (mentally) for a while, but got a bit of nudge to pull my head out of my orifice and get back into the process of living.

For the new folks, I'm an ACoA of two alcoholic parents, both still living, and in contact with both of them still. I've just recently left therapy after about 5 straight years of it (which was preceeded by on again-off again therapy for about 15 years before that).

As for guilt, the first step for me was to acknowledge and really *believe* that I do not control how other people feel. I am a scientist by trade, and I have this need to test things, so I have tested this 'theory' by saying something to one person with one personality type, then saying the exact same thing in the same tone of voice to someone else with a radically different personality type. Guess what? They reacted quite differently to what I said! It wasn't me, it was them!

You may say something to one person and it may make them angry. You could say the same thing to me, and I might say "huh, I'll have to think about that" with no anger at all.

Which is all by way of saying that fear of someone getting angry is really fear of the unknown. And even if they do get angry, it is their *choice* to be angry.

Another way to think of this (and the one that caught my attention the most) is that to assume you have the power to make someone angry is to assume you are all powerful and have mind-control over other people. This is much like saying "I am God. I can control the will of others." I suppose this caught me because I'm normally a fairly humble person, and the realization that I was assuming I had this kind of control over someone was so out of keeping with who I think I am that it was ludicrous.

Once you can accept that you do not have the power to make someone angry, the next step is to accept that people will be angry. It happens. And to accept that you don't have to like it when people are angry, but that you have no control over whether they are or are not angry. Thus, the responsibility lies not with you, but with them.

For instance, you could tell me I'm out of line and a complete idiot, and I *could* get angry with you. I could also say "well, that's your opinion and I don't happen to share it with you." But the choice as to how I react is mine, not yours.

All that being said, I still cringe and have an intense desire to hide when people start raising their voices. When that happens I go into "observer" mode. There is a psychological phenomenon by which one can not simultaneously observe and experience. So when I start "experiencing" too much, I force myself to go into "observer". I note how the persons face is distorted, how their tone indicates their state of mind, I listen to their words and try to ferret out where the anger is actually coming from. This takes the edge off of my desire to flee, and I can look at them much as I'd look at a nature documentary.

The first step - recognizing that I could not control the behavior or feelings of those around me - was the hardest. We've been trained that other people's emotional states are somehow our faults. But they are not. We are not that powerful. Interestingly, I have used this with a coworker who claimed I made her angry - I asked her (she's a devout born-again christian - the kind with the lower case 'c' as in she does a lot of talking but not much behaving like one) if she thought I was God. She got snotty with me and said "Not hardly!" So then I asked her what made her think I had the power to make her do or feel anything - was I so powerful that I could force her to think things she wouldn't otherwise be thinking? She had no retort for that.

Yes, people will get angry. I was angry last night. I was angry at life, at the fates, at my current situation (health problems that limit my ability to do what I want to do and be who I want to be). But I was not angry at my spouse, even though he could hear the anger in my voice. I explained to him that I was angry at life, not at him. He doesn't like it when I'm angry, but he understood where I was coming from.

Just some things to ponder.

Gin

bragi

dothi,

I think that's a great observation. I think "Step 1" is understanding that that's what you're doing -- and I think that takes a little while.

Thanks so much for the book recommendations too!

bragi

Tish28,

Are you scared of your partner? Do you feel unsafe? I think all of us on the forum are worried first and foremost for your safety.

If you're scared to confront your partner, please be in a safe place before you do that

bragi

dothi,

I was looking through the Toxic Parents book, and I came across a chapter entitled "You Don't Have to Forgive." That really piqued my interest. Granted, I haven't read the book, but I have all sorts of feelings about that already.

I'm tired of the attention people pay to the addicts. On shows like Celebrity Rehab and Sober House, people bend over backwards to help them, only to have them say "**** you!" and walk out the door and get drunk or high and be gone for days. I don't feel bad for my AM, and I certainly won't forgive her before she apologizes -- and who knows if I will then.

dothi

bragi,

When I saw that chapter entitled, "You Don't Have To Forgive", I knew it was going to be a good book for me. It's such a taboo in society to be angry at your parents. People who haven't walked in your shoes will call you bitter, selfish, and say that you're holding a grudge - which reinforces all that good ol' ACOA guilt and shame (cause, once again, you are the one with the problem, right?).

I'm at a point with my AF that until he can acknowledge - even acknowledge - how his drinking has hurt me, I don't have the strength to forgive him nor can I stand to physically be in his presence. Maybe I am a bitter, vindictive person, but that bitter vindictive rage is serving as my reminder to stay out of that unhealthy environment. It is letting me know that I am hurting and I need to do something about it.

What has been your experience with forgiveness?

GingerM

Mike had a very good post on here, which I'm unable to find now, about forgiveness. The jist of it was that forgiving people doesn't mean removing from them their responsibility in the situation, it means we've let go of expecting anything from them.

He likened it (and this part I thought was brilliant) to a bank forgiving a loan. When a bank forgives a loan, it does not say the person wasn't responsible for the loan in the first place. Actually, having a loan forgiven by a bank dings your credit rating pretty severely. All the bank is saying is "we don't expect to ever get any money back from you and we're tired of dealing with trying". They don't say "Oh, you never owed us any money to begin with."

In other words, forgiveness does not have to include the component of releasing someone from their initial responsibility, only that you don't expect the person to every fulfill their responsibility.

By no longer carrying that expectation with me, I have found that much of my stress and anxiety in dealing with my parents has gone away. I don't feel that they weren't responsible for giving me a reasonable childhood, but I do feel that I can't expect them to ever fulfill their responsibility and I give up on trying to "collect".

Gin

bragi

GingerM,

Your post (the first one; the long one) was awesome. I might just have to clip it out and save it! There's a lot of good stuff in there. Thank you so much for sharing

And welcome back to the forums! We're all happy to see you.

bragi

dothi,

If you are feeling bitter and vindictive toward your AF, then I totally sympathize with that. You could probably describe my feelings towards my AM that way. I'd describe them as "anger and intolerance" -- intolerance in that I'm totally unwilling to put up with her crap. Other people seem to be able to, and my fiancée will once in a while suggest that I keep trying to talk to her, and do an intervention and whatnot, but yknow what? I really don't care at this point. Why should I throw together a big, elaborate intervention to take care of the poor addict? Nobody did an intervention on my ****** parents and got me and my sister out of there. **** 'em.

So, in that respect, my experience with forgiveness is, "not so much"

In a way, I've at least partially forgiven my father, though; for years and years and years (until recently, actually), I thought my father was terrible -- because my mom spent her entire life convincing me and my sister that he was. But as it turns out, my AM drives everyone away; it's just that, as her kids, my sister and I put up with it and sided with her, since she was sort of brainwashing us.

Being able to let go/forgive my father has been the big win so far; I don't have to be so guarded around him, and I don't curse him for everything he does wrong.

bragi

Well, in that way, maybe I have forgiven my AM? I certainly don't expect her to do anything to make amends, or stop drinking, or to be nicer or anything like that.