LaTour

Hi again, all

Thought I'd ask your advice on a thorny issue.

First, background. Monday night was a disaster. I was at work and AW's mom (Gramma) was supposed to be watching the kids, but AW smooth talked Gramma out of the house and then hit the bottle.

Child services found out through AW's counsellor that AW was alone with the kids, and all heck broke loose. I got raked over the coals and now I'm supposed to ensure that AW is never alone with the kids, or they'll take them away.

With the help of AW's sister SAW and Gramma we got AW to agree to stay with SAW across town. Grandma has moved in to help me with the kids. Good news is that AW is going to AA meetings now.

But, AW wants me to push Child Services so she can get back to overseeing the girls, alone, as soon as possible, but I don’t think the girls share her urgency. Last few weeks, AW has been scaring the living you know what out them.

I tried many times to persuade AW that when the girls saw her drunk it was traumatic for them, but she maintained that the only traumatic part was me making a big deal out of her drinking, and that I was the one freaking them out.

Well, with Gramma in the house, the girls aren’t even asking about Mummy. It’s a happy house again, sad to say (ironically). The girls are sleeping better, more relaxed, laughing. Now they can come home from school and not be scared -- they were avoiding AW by hiding in the basement. They don’t want to go back that, obviously.

I still don’t think AW gets how much the girls have suffered. On the one hand, telling AW the above might cause her to reach for the bottle; on the other hand, this might be more incentive to stay sober and try to undo the damage (provided she accepts that damage has been done).

What do you think?

Thanks so much.

Freedom1990

You didn't create her alcoholism, you can't control it, and you can't cure it.

What is your motive for telling her of the damage?

When it comes to her 'pushing' you about CS and having the girls alone, 'NO' is a complete sentence, yes?

LaTour

My motive would be that she hasn't taken her drinking seriously because "it wasn't doing anybody any harm." according to her.

Thanks for reminding me of the three C's.

GiveLove

And if you tell her, do you think she'll believe you?

Alcoholics have amazing powers of denial.

Me? I would tell her, in as clear and undeniable terms as possible, the proof of the damage already done. BUT I would do it for me. I would not expect her to take it seriously and I would not expect it to work any miracles. If you want to see some amazing denial and manipulation, go ahead and have that conversation with her....but be prepared first.

And as for her pressuring you: NO is a complete sentence. You know what's best for your kids and she isn't it. A few AA meetings will not save you from losing your kids and will not save your kids from growing up with the horror they've already seen. I'm glad you have taken steps to stop their bleeding.

Good luck with everything LaTour -

laurie6781

You telling her would NOT change a thing, she is still in DENIAL. As Freedom said NO is a complete sentence.

Her getting back with her children is between her and CPS. If you have to expand on the 'NO' become a broken record:

"It's not up to me, it's up to CPS, talk to CPS." Over and over and over.

Good for you for protecting your children!!!!!!

Love and hugs,

Barbara52

Yeah, well I want someone to give me a billion dollars. That ain't gonna happen and I hope you think of your children first when it comes to dealing with you AW and Child Services. They will take your children away from you if you put them at risk. Rightfully so. And being left with an A mother puts them at risk no matter what she wants to pretend.

As for telling AW, she knows, she just wants to belittle the information she has. That is her right. Denial is strong in As and those of us who live with As.

Personally I would require she find sobriety and stay in recovery for a long time before I would even consider allowing her back in the house with young kids. Maybe if she can stay sober for a year and is working on recovery for that year, maybe then I would consider changes the present arrangement. But as long as she is drinking, nope, not welcome back in the house. Let her stay out and deal with her issues without causing any further damage to those kids. Or you.

Lilyflower

Just to say I agree 100% with all the above.

Protect your children and let her deal with the consequences of her drinking, which is not for you to explain over and over to her, she has eyes, she has ears, she has a brain. She knows what she is doing and is choosing to ignore and remain in denial.

Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

LaTour

You guys are worth a billion bucks.

Freedom1990

I'm going to just settle for another cup of coffee!

Barbara52

I'll PM you with my address so you can send me the check.

Freedom1990

DeVon-cleaning up the coffee she just spewed all over

sailorjohn

Yeah, I've gone that route, trying to convince her of the truth-my truth, anyways. Have to agree with the others, I think they really do get it, I believe my trying to convince her was just another attempt at control, should have stopped contributing to the problem instead.

Barbara52

Well I had stated early I wanted a billion dollars ya know! Obviously LaTour wants to take care of meeting that particular need I have. He's gonna be my new best friend. :ghug3

dothi

Chiming in a little late here, but here goes...

GiveLove has said it perfectly: Alcoholics have amazing powers of denial.

Your post reminds me of when my mom used to tell my AF that I was upset with him as a teenager. She even told him for me that I felt I couldn't talk to him. He denied it, and even said to my mom that "dothi doesn't have trouble talking to me."

He didn't ask me, of course, because that could have entailed facing the truth.

The few times he and I did get to talking about it, I got a lecture about how much more difficult his life is than mine, so basically I should suck it up and let him drink. To this day he is still very skilled at turning conversations about my feelings (e.g. dad, it really upset me when you drank at [function]) into conversations about how tough his life is (therefore, he deserves to drink). It doesn't matter what I have to address (complain about), because his feelings always take precedence over mine.

My point is that so long as the alcoholic is in denial, they will fabricate/twist/invent reasons for why the drinking isn't the problem. Just like my AF, your AW doesn't want to know that her drinking is damaging her kids. And because they can't stand up to her as adults yet, she'll either laugh it off or assert that they are just kids and don't know what they're talking about. Please don't give your girls the expectation that bringing their pain forward (directly or indirectly through you) will cause that big change you've all been waiting for in mom. It will just let them down.

FlwrofFrgttng

It's been my personal experience with my father, my sister and now my H that it doesn't matter what you say. They will believe otherwise. I tend to save my breath to cool my porridge with now.

Mr B

Wow, LaTour, I've been on the receiving end of a very similar threat from social services here in the UK. It scared the heck out of me, because I knew they'd do it. Don't underestimate their conviction on this - they will take the children away if they think you're not being compliant.

Deja vu again - my XAGF wanted me to phone up Social Services and say that it was all a mistake, and that she was fine and didn't have a drinking problem. It was 10:30 in the morning when she was telling me all this, and she was drunk as a skunk. At the time I was outraged at her presumption but, later on, her disconnection with reality and belief that she could just click her fingers and I'd do what she wanted made me laugh...

Okay, now I'm getting spooked - are you living my life from 2 years ago? My XAGF said exactly the same. According to her they weren't scared when she drank herself unconscious (oops, sorry, not drank herself unconscious but "fell asleep on the floor") and they couldn't wake her up, it was just that I "put them up to be scared". :wtf2

You know what, out of everything you wrote I'd say this is the most important paragraph. Your girls are happy and relaxed. Well done you and Gramma! All you need to do now is make sure that, as much as possible, your girls continue being happy and relaxed. And as it's fairly clear that the more time they spend with mummy the less happy and relaxed they are, that should really tell you a lot about which direction you need to go from here.

I think that telling her is a waste of time and will only cause an argument. You've already tried to explain, and she's not been in the slightest bit receptive. It's not your responsibility to make her understand the impact of what she's done. One day she might, but it won't be through your efforts - it will need a big change in her. Let it go.

LaTour, as I say, what you're going through is pretty much identical to where I was a couple of years ago. Since then my kids have been living full-time with me and, sure, at times it's been tough. My career is now just a part-time job, I don't have much money and even less spare time, and I still have to deal with XAGF at times. But you know what? I'm happy. More importantly, my kids are happy. I can't ask for more than that.

My XAGF is continuing to alternate between sobriety and all-out drinking. She's been to one-on-one counselling, AA, rehab etc. She generally lasts 2-3 months between resumption of drinking. My best guess is that she'll continue cycling between drunk and sober forever. Certainly, that's what I'm basing my plans on.

All the best,
Mr B.

HoopNinja

From experience--there is no point in telling her how much she is hurting your kids. She is in denial and will be until she decides to get into treatment.
AH scared the living daylights out of our 8 year old 3 days before Christmas with his ranting and raving at me (I had the audacity to open up my own account--the horror, the horror). Then a month later I got a call from the same son who was begging me to come home from work. He had locked himself in the bathroom because "Daddy was going crazy again". Why--my son would not answer the phone when AH asked him to because he did not recognize the name on the caller ID. AH may have even been sober at the time. I came home and AH was still all in a lather and I told him he was way out of control--needed to get into treatment ASAP and not only for alcohol and drugs but also for anger management. Do you think he has done it or even moved that direction-nope! Even told him our son is afraid of him. Denial, denial, denial.
Something extremely telling happened this week at my son's therapy. The therapist had him fill in some open ended statements. One was "I am afraid. . ." He put in that my dad will kill me someday. Another "I know I am loved by. . ." my mom and dad, well maybe not my dad. Would it make any difference if I told AH this--doubt it. He would probably say the therapist and I were in collusion to turn his son against him. As far as he is concerned he did not do it, and if the did it was OK because he had a reason, and I am always over-reacting about everything.
I would say don't bother telling her how much she is and has been hurting the kids. Keep your kids away from her. AH is often gone at night and it is amazing how calm and peaceful the house is when he is not around. My kids are adopted and have reactive attachment disorder and PTSD and they feel safest when he is not around. When he is, all they try to do is make daddy happy.
But AH is living in la la land. This morning he told me we should get a house out in the country with 10 acres so our dog could run around. He hates the dog--why would he want to do something nice for the dog? Because he knows which way the wind is blowing and instead of just doing what needs to be done he is practicing his smoke and mirrors tricks. It's all smoke and mirrors--then you won't see what is really going on (and eventhough they are the ones performing the smoke and mirrors--somehow they start to believe it themself).

janet1965

Ok i was reading these post and was laughing so hard and crying at the same time. Now i have to add something. My ABF is now in the hospital wow has he finially got it? Maybe! Maybe not! I have been telling him for years that he needs therapy, lots of it he has suppressed issues from childhood. stay away from his family because they give him Drug ect. bla bla bla bla bla bla!!! well he called me and told me everything i have been telling him for almost 4 years and his Ex has been telling him for 10 or more yrs. ya just want to slap them silly. my point is you can tell them all day long everyday for years and years but unless they addmitt they have a problem and want to get help for them and know that they are hurting not only who they love but themselfs. you can't fix them they can only fix themselfs. Only you can protect you and your children from the uglies.