JenT1968

gosh: this runs so deep in my family, not one of us say/does what we mean, it's just all of us....

My brother has split up with his girlfriend of 13 years. the details aren't important, but he rings me to tell me last night. I was surprised, said I was sorry for them both and then started on the whole "have you considered counselling etc", anyway half way through this sentence, I realise that this is unsolicited advice, he's an adult, he doesn't neeed my suggestions, so I say that, apologise, and tell him I love him....

his girlfriend is someone I care about but he asks me not to text her or ring her because he doesn't want her thinking that as soon as he split up with her he's gone around telling everyone about it.... (so I agree not to contact her just yet as this is about him, her and their daughter, not me), however it seems a bit strange, he's sad, confused, hasn't really processed the whole thing, hasn't really phoned me for support or anything, and wants me to pretend that I don't know?

He then says that the only reason he is ringing me to tell me this RIGHT NOW (a few hours after they have split up), is because Mum thinks I ought to know RIGHT NOW.... ???? (my brother is 34, I am 37 and live 200miles away from them, there's pretty much no reason I need to know right now....).

anyway he gets off of the phone: within MINUTES my mum is on the phone, wanting to talk about my brother's break-up, should she contact his "ex" despite the fact that he doesn't want her to?, how she thought there was something wrong all this week, how his poor ex must be feeling, will she ever see her grandchild again.....?
then she gives me another run-down on how she's running my Step-Brother's divorce (she travels 150miles to attend my step-brother's meetings with his divorce lawyer, my SB is 45, she changed his children's access rota, she has input into the financial settlement discussions? she has the lawyer on speed-dial ??? why??? she married my step dad 10 years ago: its not like my SB was ever her dependent, let alone now)

basically she persuaded my brother to tell me when he didn't want to just yet, (because who knows what will happen as the dust settles...) just so she could ring me and twitter about how awful this is for her????

and my brother does what she wants despite the fact that it is not what he wants and he thinks it will amke his relationship with his ex/stbex/whatever difficult.

and I sit there and listen despite feeling really uncomfortable about the WHOLE conversation, and a day later its still praying on my mind....

I made non-comittal noises, said I was going to leave them both to it unless they asked me for something and told her she has to do whatever she feels comfortable with and got off of the phone.

but honestly, its no surprise I have no idea what healthy relationships look like, I know its not her fault, because she doesn't either but gee...the drama.

dothi

Funny how once you sit down and think about the drama, how ridiculously blown out of proportion it really is.

This reminds me of my family. My AF likes to make ALL the decisions (where his kids are going to live, who's going to take care of him, etc.). When someone makes a choice outside of his thinking, he employs a battery of manipulation tactics to pull them back in line. He'll start by having discussions with everyone else about how wrong "family member X" is for making this choice and come up with [often flawed] supporting arguments. My codie mom will repeat his ideas word-for-word simply because she does not know how to think for herself. You really have to watch in my family where "helpful suggestions" are coming from. Most of my family is still locked in this passive-aggressive whirlwind of codependence. The women in particular tend to wander in circles if he's not there to make the call. No support for independent thinking whatsoever.

Example of a flawed supporting argument? Last year my sister's wisdom teeth started coming in, causing flaring infections and great pain. Though AF agreed that her wisdom teeth needed to be removed, he strongly discouraged her from seeing a dentist. He argued that she was wasting money getting her teeth cleaned prior to the operation. He has a big conspiracy theory that the sole purpose of dentists is to rip you off; hence, none of his children ever saw a dentist (lucky us). When he was in his late 30s this man had all his teeth extracted at a hospital (infection and decay were so bad they all had to be removed). So he decided for my sister that a hospital was where she needed to go.

Thankfully my sister has grown up a bit and held her ground (not without a fair share of heated conversations and tactless criticism). After 8 months of ongoing antibiotics and painful infections, she finally got in to see a dentist and had the wisdom teeth removed.

Ceridwen, I'm amazed you have the patience to even listen to it. These days when my AF chimes in about how "family member X" is making a mistake, I'll listen to the preliminary arguments, but once it's clear passive-aggressiveness, I shut it down. It's not caring - it's controlling, IMO. There is no respect for people in my family to make their choices. When I'm irritable I usually respond to the effect of, "Is there some reason you can't respect X's decision? No? Then leave it."
I know it's rude, but it gets the point across and minimizes the energy I waste in trying to "solve" the perceived problem.

dothi

Sorry, I went off on a rant there and couldn't edit in time. I think my point was...

Shouldn't family members be judged by their actions and NOT someone's opinion? Even if that someone is family?

Your mom is very busy trying to fix something [from her past], and your SB is on the receiving end of it. I wouldn't be surprised if she had an alcoholic/mentally ill/otherwise disabled role model growing up. Maybe she's simply avoiding what's wrong in her own life by focussing on SB. Maybe she was taught that men can't make their own decisions. Either way, she's not showing your SB any respect. Funny how that works, cause it looks caring and helpful, but the underlying tone is very pronounced: she does not respect your SB to make his own decisions. Is there a good reason for that?

There's a big difference between support and smothering. One is genuinely helpful, the other perpetuates helplessness.

Bernadette

Ugh ceridwen--
It took me a long long time to accept that my mom was NEVER going to be the Mom I needed...I often struggle with acceptance and that was a real toughie.

You did well catching yourself in your discussion with your brother. Your recovery shining a little beam of health right there!! And just letting mum know you were going to respect brother's wishes and keep your nose out of it...sadly it's all you can do.

Because my father was truly in recovery and sober for the last 20 years of his life he really changed. My Mom on the other hand - although she has some glimmers of rational thought - is still stuck in the same severe codependent behavior patterns that she has employed all my life. It is crazy-making to be around. It actually scares me the level of control my mother tries to exert. It's ugly and overwhelming and dumbfounding.

All I can do is redouble my efforts to clean every codependent cobwebby corner of my brain!!! Don't wanna be like that!!!!!

peace,
b.

Ago

Wow,

Another great thread....

What was frightening for me was after 25 years of living away from these folks, after many years of sobriety and "inner work", how fast I regressed to fit right in with the "family dynamics", how fast I got sick too when I "engaged" with them.

I was out to dinner with a friend the other night, he mentioned that he'll travel to visit his family, and after three days he just "ain't right" and 3 days of interacting with his family wipes out 20 years of "work" and all his years of sobriety.

I mentioned "Of course Mom knows how to push my buttons, she's the one who installed them."

Family stuff is......interesting....to say the least, and too big to tackle for me alone.

They are better at it then I am.... they really are...for me some distance is necessary, and then, it's best if I think of them as a concentrate, like....plutonium...a little goes a LONG way and it's poisonous and toxic.

I could have written any one of those posts....

Thanks Guys

ICant

I really appreciate the posts that look at the family dynamics because it just floors me how one acoholic in a family has a ripple effect in every family member. Which then affects the children's choice in partner and how they parent. Their children then also learn poor behaviour. There was no alcoholism in my parents and so when a therapist suggested there might be some in my family because I married an alcoholic, I was insulted. Now I'm coming to terms with the fact that my father's branch of the family tree is swimming in alcohol, same as my husband's.

My father's brother and his adult children are particularly enmeshed. All three children (my first cousins) married within the culture, moved 5minutes away from their parents, all now divorced and never remarried. I'm not saying divorce is bad because it is definetely still an option for me if my husband doesn't stick with recovery but I don't feel any of them grew in the process of separation. Years later, they are all still blaming the other person in the marriage, still leaning on their parents.

JenT1968

LOL,
I am instantly somewhere around 12 whenever I am with my dad, I really need to take the bull by the horns there and just grow-up when I am in his presence.

My family are lovely people, and I'm certainly not blaming anyone, my mum is only doing what she was taught, by people who didn't know any different themselves. There is no concious effort to control, and the thing with my SB is (I believe) her trying to not let him be treated the same way she believes she was treated by my dad. He's a grown man, if he wants her to butt out he can tell her. But its a lesson to me on how insane "loving" control and intervention can look from the outside (i.e. when I'm not the one trying to bend people and situations to my will because *I know best*).

When I am uncomfortable hearing all the details, I should just say so really.

I really am trying to get a handle on the whole thing because I am finding it very difficult to parent my son, I keep catching myself doing a whole load of unhealthy stuff: shame inducing, not validating his feelings, not listening but I have *nothing* to replace them with (I'm not the worst parent in the world, but I don't want to teach them the same things I was taught).

There is no direct alcoholism addiction in my immediate family growing up, or in my parents as far as I can tell, although its definately around, my aunt is an alcoholic, my mum's cousin just died of an alcohol-related disease at 40-odd, my bro had a brief speed problem in his early 20's. Sometimes I wonder about my dad: he no longer drinks, I *believe* because of stoumach condition, and I've seen him drink-drive, once, a long time ago. guess it doesn't matter either way.


But given that we are disfunctional, I'm just wondering where the naturally* functional families are? I don't think I've ever seen any.

** by which I mean people who learned at the parent's feet a healthy way to live their lives, partner and parent and that is passed down the generations, rather than going to therapy/classes/groups to learn it.

ICant

Ceridwen, I'm with you on asking about are there any functional families out there? Well, they wouldn't be on this board at any rate...

Bernadette

I really am trying to get a handle on the whole thing because I am finding it very difficult to parent my son, I keep catching myself doing a whole load of unhealthy stuff: shame inducing, not validating his feelings, not listening but I have *nothing* to replace them with (I'm not the worst parent in the world, but I don't want to teach them the same things I was taught).

hi ceridwen--
I felt the same way when my kids were small - it's like my "default-mode" of parenting was just NOT what I wanted:

2 books (along w/ all the AlAnon and therapy!!!!!!!) that really helped me were
Liberated Parents Liberated Children
and
How to Talk so Kids will Listen and LIsten so Kids Will Talk
both by Faber & Mazlisch

I also was helped a lot by the Your 7 Year Old , Your 8 Year Old, etc., series of books on child development by Louise Bates Ames and Carol Haber
The last one is 10-14 yr old, so they cover right through the early adolescent period. They are slim little volumes you can read in a single evening but are chock full of great insight. My library has all the above books - maybe yours does too.

I found these books especially reassuring because they come from a straight up child development view - and they helped me to relax and meet my boys with some understanding. A lot of the times my mother treated me really really badly was when I was just doing what say a 9 year old does...and her controlling nature just would flip out instead of offering non-shaming guidance...

Good luck-
b

JenT1968

Thanks Bernadette,
I had a quick .skim on amazon's read-through and they look good, as soon as I am pid I'll get those and the the development ones. I definately need those as I am never sure if I am expecting too much or too little from DS!