need new perspective
Rediscovering myself
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 231
need new perspective
I left my AH 3 months ago. I moved to another town, got a new job, and am doing surprisingly well. He comes down every weekend or two to see us, then goes back to the house.
I dropped the bomb this weekend and said I have no intentions of allowing him to move back in with DD and me. He (of course) throws every manipulation tactic at me, along with a LONG list of excuses, blah, blah, blah.
He asked if there was a chance we could work things out and I said Yes, but the likely hood of this happening is nearly impossible. He said to let him know when/if I throw the towel in.
Is this another manipulation? He's just trying to buy more time isn't he?
I dropped the bomb this weekend and said I have no intentions of allowing him to move back in with DD and me. He (of course) throws every manipulation tactic at me, along with a LONG list of excuses, blah, blah, blah.
He asked if there was a chance we could work things out and I said Yes, but the likely hood of this happening is nearly impossible. He said to let him know when/if I throw the towel in.
Is this another manipulation? He's just trying to buy more time isn't he?
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Location: Stumbling toward happiness
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justaboutus,
Congrats on all the tough changes you've made.
Although I'm super-sensitive to manipulation, and this may be it, what I see is him reacting to your statement that "Yes", there's a chance.
Does he KNOW that the likelihood you'd take him back is one in a million? And if he doesn't, why not just tell him? Under what circumstances would you accept him back? Were you clear about your boundaries/needs/limits, or did you just leave it at "maybe, and I'll let you know when" ? Many men -- many PEOPLE, including myself (a non-A) - don't operate well in a gray state like that. They want to know
1) yes, there's a possibility, and to get there I need to work toward specific, measurable lifestyle change X
or
2) no, the door is closed, and I need to accept this new reality.
You may not know these answers. But that appears to me what he's trying to clarify, so that he can either move toward doing something, or move on with his life. What do you want him to do?
Congrats on all the tough changes you've made.
Although I'm super-sensitive to manipulation, and this may be it, what I see is him reacting to your statement that "Yes", there's a chance.
Does he KNOW that the likelihood you'd take him back is one in a million? And if he doesn't, why not just tell him? Under what circumstances would you accept him back? Were you clear about your boundaries/needs/limits, or did you just leave it at "maybe, and I'll let you know when" ? Many men -- many PEOPLE, including myself (a non-A) - don't operate well in a gray state like that. They want to know
1) yes, there's a possibility, and to get there I need to work toward specific, measurable lifestyle change X
or
2) no, the door is closed, and I need to accept this new reality.
You may not know these answers. But that appears to me what he's trying to clarify, so that he can either move toward doing something, or move on with his life. What do you want him to do?
Yield beautiful changes
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: A home filled with love
Posts: 1,695
What could he do, justaboutus?
If you were to give him a list, what would it look like?
It was important for me to really sit down and think about what I would need to SEE in order to feel safe living with my husband again.
In my case, I would need to see at least 6 months of sobriety and active participation in a recovery network of his choosing before I would even consider living with my AH again.
It is OK to have needs. It's OK to require signs of progress. It's OK to voice these needs - but repeatedly stating them, over and over and over - while he continues to drink alcoholically and holds off on making any real changes, well, that's just crazy-making.
Think it through.
Say it once (and try not to say it in anger
).
Watch his actions for a period of time.
Proceed accordingly.
That's the best I've got. I do know that it feeds my ego (in a big, bad way) to have AH groveling about what he can do to keep me. I think that ego trip kept me talking for a long time - when I would have benefited MUCH more from watching and doing.
Take care.
-TC
If you were to give him a list, what would it look like?
It was important for me to really sit down and think about what I would need to SEE in order to feel safe living with my husband again.
In my case, I would need to see at least 6 months of sobriety and active participation in a recovery network of his choosing before I would even consider living with my AH again.
It is OK to have needs. It's OK to require signs of progress. It's OK to voice these needs - but repeatedly stating them, over and over and over - while he continues to drink alcoholically and holds off on making any real changes, well, that's just crazy-making.
Think it through.
Say it once (and try not to say it in anger
).Watch his actions for a period of time.
Proceed accordingly.
That's the best I've got. I do know that it feeds my ego (in a big, bad way) to have AH groveling about what he can do to keep me. I think that ego trip kept me talking for a long time - when I would have benefited MUCH more from watching and doing.
Take care.
-TC
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,888
What can you do, though, if you spell out what you need before you can continue to live with an A and they don't listen? All they hear is you saying yes, we can be together.
I ask this because, there are times when I won't even throw a bone to my ABF when he wants something. I know that when I try to introduce a caveat, he's already tuned me out.
He wants _____. If I say yes, but ____. He nevers hears the but, just the yes and goes about his merry way completely ignoring what he needs to do to get what he wants. In the end I have to compromise or just keep pushing till he gets it right.
If I just flatly say no, he'll pout and complain and try everything he can to get me to change my mind. Sometimes he stumbles upon what was holding me back, and I can then say yes.
When the time comes, I hope to know what I will need from him in order to stay with him. When/If he asks if I'll ever return to him, will he even hear me beyond yes?
Alice
I ask this because, there are times when I won't even throw a bone to my ABF when he wants something. I know that when I try to introduce a caveat, he's already tuned me out.
He wants _____. If I say yes, but ____. He nevers hears the but, just the yes and goes about his merry way completely ignoring what he needs to do to get what he wants. In the end I have to compromise or just keep pushing till he gets it right.
If I just flatly say no, he'll pout and complain and try everything he can to get me to change my mind. Sometimes he stumbles upon what was holding me back, and I can then say yes.
When the time comes, I hope to know what I will need from him in order to stay with him. When/If he asks if I'll ever return to him, will he even hear me beyond yes?
Alice
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Originally Posted by ItsmeAlice 
I ask this because, there are times when I won't even throw a bone to my ABF when he wants something. I know that when I try to introduce a caveat, he's already tuned me out.
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There were dozens of times I told my AH what I needed in order to stay in the marriage. Or, rather, what I thought I needed. It kept changing. First it was something like not drinking so much. Then it was beer only, no hard liquor. Then it was no drinking at all. He always did what I wanted, for a short time (once as long as four months), then slowly went back to the old ways. And he would be angry with me. "I did what you wanted, and you still aren't happy!"
The last time we separated, I simply told him that I needed six months to sort myself out and figure out what I wanted. He asked what he needed to do. I told him I didn't really care what he did for those six months--it was entirely up to him to decide how to proceed. He knew what he needed to do, he just wanted me to take responsibility for it. Instead, I said we will not talk about getting back together until six months has passed. At that time, we can talk and see how we both feel about it.
L
The last time we separated, I simply told him that I needed six months to sort myself out and figure out what I wanted. He asked what he needed to do. I told him I didn't really care what he did for those six months--it was entirely up to him to decide how to proceed. He knew what he needed to do, he just wanted me to take responsibility for it. Instead, I said we will not talk about getting back together until six months has passed. At that time, we can talk and see how we both feel about it.
L
Yield beautiful changes
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: A home filled with love
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Originally Posted by ItsmeAlice
When/If he asks if I'll ever return to him, will he even hear me beyond yes?
I say "I don't know" a lot.
'Cause I don't know.
Even if my husband did EXACTLY what I asked of him - it still might not be enough.
I like the phrase "necessary but not sufficient."
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,888
justaboutus,
See when he asked you if there was a chance of you all working it out and you said Yes it sounds to me like he shut off at that point and then told you to let him know when/if you've thrown in the towel. As though he has no idea there is something he could be doing to make that yes actually happen.
That is the kind of response I've gotten in the past from my ABF, and I'm trying to approach dealing with him in a new way.
I imagine him saying the same thing your AH said, blaming me for never letting anything go and walking out on him, and never do anything to get himself better.
I suppose if I put what I need from him out there as best I can, and he shuts off and won't hear me, then will just have to accept that my leaving will be a permanent end, and as you say the chance of reconcillation at that point with be miniscule.
**
I read this, and it certainly sounds like I'm still hoping something I say or do will get him to seek recovery. That makes me sad.
See when he asked you if there was a chance of you all working it out and you said Yes it sounds to me like he shut off at that point and then told you to let him know when/if you've thrown in the towel. As though he has no idea there is something he could be doing to make that yes actually happen.
That is the kind of response I've gotten in the past from my ABF, and I'm trying to approach dealing with him in a new way.
I imagine him saying the same thing your AH said, blaming me for never letting anything go and walking out on him, and never do anything to get himself better.
I suppose if I put what I need from him out there as best I can, and he shuts off and won't hear me, then will just have to accept that my leaving will be a permanent end, and as you say the chance of reconcillation at that point with be miniscule.
**
I read this, and it certainly sounds like I'm still hoping something I say or do will get him to seek recovery. That makes me sad.
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Originally Posted by ItsmeAlice
I read this, and it certainly sounds like I'm still hoping something I say or do will get him to seek recovery. That makes me sad.
Tough pill to swallow, I know.
L
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 444
It reminds me of that scene in the movie Dumb & Dumber:
Lloyd: What are the chances of a guy like you and a girl like me... ending up together?
Mary: Well, that's pretty difficult to say.
Lloyd: Hit me with it! I've come a long way to see you, Mary. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?
Mary: Not good.
Lloyd: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Mary: I'd say more like one out of a million.
[pause]
Lloyd: So you're telling me there's a chance.
Lloyd: What are the chances of a guy like you and a girl like me... ending up together?
Mary: Well, that's pretty difficult to say.
Lloyd: Hit me with it! I've come a long way to see you, Mary. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?
Mary: Not good.
Lloyd: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Mary: I'd say more like one out of a million.
[pause]
Lloyd: So you're telling me there's a chance.
Rediscovering myself
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 231
I very well could be married to Lloyd. I think he is shutting off once I say yes.
He does ask what he can do and I've stated them previously to him (it's a bit of a laundry list), so I'm hesitant to go through it again.
Since then, AH called saying he lost his part time job. I knew this was coming. I asked what he was going to do and he talked about resurrecting an old (not profitable) company he owned (so he could still keep his drinking all day self employment ways). I lost it. I was angry. I finally caught myself saying "I need you to..." then I said "No. I take it back. I don't need you to do ANYTHING. I'll handle it one way or another." He knew what I meant. He gave me a few more excuses and some begging. I hung up the phone, disgusted.
So it wasn't my proudest codie moment, but at least i wasn't falling for the manipulation and let him know what was unacceptable.
He does ask what he can do and I've stated them previously to him (it's a bit of a laundry list), so I'm hesitant to go through it again.
Since then, AH called saying he lost his part time job. I knew this was coming. I asked what he was going to do and he talked about resurrecting an old (not profitable) company he owned (so he could still keep his drinking all day self employment ways). I lost it. I was angry. I finally caught myself saying "I need you to..." then I said "No. I take it back. I don't need you to do ANYTHING. I'll handle it one way or another." He knew what I meant. He gave me a few more excuses and some begging. I hung up the phone, disgusted.
So it wasn't my proudest codie moment, but at least i wasn't falling for the manipulation and let him know what was unacceptable.
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,888
I think you should be proud of yourself! Don't minimize the strength it takes to pull away from the vortex created by an A's behavior. I struggle every single day with it!
I was about to tell you that IMO, he is pushing to see how much will take before you will release him or as he put it "throw in the towel." and that then he doesn't have to come down to see you and DD every weekend or so...
BUT there is absolutely no reason to listen to any of it. It doesn't matter what he says or what he does. He could do A, he could do B, little fairies could fly out of his behind, it makes no never mind to you unless you had fairies on your laundry list, right?
Stay strong! You cut the conversation off at a critical moment, and you should be proud of that.
Peace.
Alice
I was about to tell you that IMO, he is pushing to see how much will take before you will release him or as he put it "throw in the towel." and that then he doesn't have to come down to see you and DD every weekend or so...
BUT there is absolutely no reason to listen to any of it. It doesn't matter what he says or what he does. He could do A, he could do B, little fairies could fly out of his behind, it makes no never mind to you unless you had fairies on your laundry list, right?
Stay strong! You cut the conversation off at a critical moment, and you should be proud of that.
Peace.
Alice
Rediscovering myself
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 231
I've been marinating all evening. He knows what I want, he just doesn't think I'm willing to call it quits because I'm not getting it. My problem is enforcing the boundary not setting it. I've never followed up. Now that I am he's all shocked, and rightfully so.
I think what I'm going to do (in a very calm cool collected way) is tell him the chances of us reconciling are slim and I'm not sure he can ever make me happy... which is the truth.
I think what I'm going to do (in a very calm cool collected way) is tell him the chances of us reconciling are slim and I'm not sure he can ever make me happy... which is the truth.
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Join Date: May 2008
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Originally Posted by ToughChoices
It is OK to have needs. It's OK to require signs of progress. It's OK to voice these needs - but repeatedly stating them, over and over and over - while he continues to drink alcoholically and holds off on making any real changes, well, that's just crazy-making.
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Originally Posted by blessed4x
So how is it that you can give yourself permission to have needs and really believe it.....much less voice them?
The trick- however- is to realize I can have needs and voice them, but that doesn't mean STBXAH (for instance) will validate them. He actually doesn't. When we were together I struggled to get him to understand what I wanted. It didn't occur to me that he may have understood but just didn't want to or couldn't give me what I wanted. Now I have to accept he may not like what I need and ask for/choose to do, but that's ok. I'll get my needs met elsewhere. And BTW- I am "evil" for stating my truths, for being honest about what I want/need. . . so what? Healthy for me is about doing the next right thing, and believing in myself regardless of what anyone else says.
Be prepared- you may rock the boat once you stop paying so much attention to what everyone else wants and start paying attention to yourself!
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blessed,
I guess that is what codependency does to us. It makes us forget that we are people with needs and wants too. We become conditioned to put our needs aside because having them and expressing them would not be what an A wants or needs, which is their drug of choice and only their drug of choice.
To overcome this it seems we have no choice but to dig through all the onion layers that we have built over our own wants/needs to find them. To give them a voice we have to pull away from always doing what will "keep the peace" or "keep our A from crashing" and pursue those wants/needs.
It sounds as though justaboutus has dug down and found her wants/needs, but she is still working on pursueing them, which in her case would mean running right over her AH who is trying every bit of quacking he has in him to block her path.
I wonder when I find my wants/needs down there somewhere, and I'm ready to pull out of the station with them if my ABF will tie himself to the tracks or hop on board the train with me.
Alice
I guess that is what codependency does to us. It makes us forget that we are people with needs and wants too. We become conditioned to put our needs aside because having them and expressing them would not be what an A wants or needs, which is their drug of choice and only their drug of choice.
To overcome this it seems we have no choice but to dig through all the onion layers that we have built over our own wants/needs to find them. To give them a voice we have to pull away from always doing what will "keep the peace" or "keep our A from crashing" and pursue those wants/needs.
It sounds as though justaboutus has dug down and found her wants/needs, but she is still working on pursueing them, which in her case would mean running right over her AH who is trying every bit of quacking he has in him to block her path.
I wonder when I find my wants/needs down there somewhere, and I'm ready to pull out of the station with them if my ABF will tie himself to the tracks or hop on board the train with me.
Alice
Rediscovering myself
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 231
My wants/needs have always been there. Typically they're the things I whined, begged, pleaded, AH for. I've always voiced them and AH would say "Okay, but first..." and we'd never get around to my needs. It was always "if you just wait" or "just a bit longer", well I've waited 7 years and I'm done waiting. I can't force him to meet my needs, but I can leave the situation and find someone else that would be happy to meet my needs. Even if I don't find someone else... at least I'm not being emotionally ABUSED on a daily basis.
When I first moved away from AH I started seeing more of my brother. He said that I wasn't as much fun as I once was and I wasn't a badass anymore. This weekend he's been warning people about the 'fire in my eyes' and saying I was saucy. I've felt like Super Woman the past few days. I think I'm getting my old self back.
When I first moved away from AH I started seeing more of my brother. He said that I wasn't as much fun as I once was and I wasn't a badass anymore. This weekend he's been warning people about the 'fire in my eyes' and saying I was saucy. I've felt like Super Woman the past few days. I think I'm getting my old self back.
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 25
The best way that someone explained to me how to express your needs/wants, etc. was the "broken record" way.
Repeat your statement three times... write it down if you have to and read it straight from the piece of paper... "I will not do "X" because of your drinking. It makes me feel X. I do love you, but this is not negotiatable. I will not do X because..." (or whatever variation of the statement you want to make) and repeat the whole thing once more. After the third time, be finished with the conversation and either hang up the phone (I've said what I have to say and I'm hanging up now) or, stand up and walk away/leave (I've said what I have to say and now I'm leaving). This process leaves no room for barganing, begging, pleading, etc. It makes your statement final and draws a hard line that you are serious and your statement/feelings/thoughts/needs/wants should be taken seriously and until they are, you are not open to discussion or negotiation.
Repeat your statement three times... write it down if you have to and read it straight from the piece of paper... "I will not do "X" because of your drinking. It makes me feel X. I do love you, but this is not negotiatable. I will not do X because..." (or whatever variation of the statement you want to make) and repeat the whole thing once more. After the third time, be finished with the conversation and either hang up the phone (I've said what I have to say and I'm hanging up now) or, stand up and walk away/leave (I've said what I have to say and now I'm leaving). This process leaves no room for barganing, begging, pleading, etc. It makes your statement final and draws a hard line that you are serious and your statement/feelings/thoughts/needs/wants should be taken seriously and until they are, you are not open to discussion or negotiation.
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: MO
Posts: 743
justaboutus......you really have come a long way! I so appreciate it when you folks who are further along in recovery share your questions/frustrations/road blocks and are willing to have a dialogue. You really gave me some food for thought. I have gotten so lost I couldn't even tell you what my needs are. Having 4 kids in the best of situations would make one susceptible to forgetting their own needs, but add an AH in the mix and it's no wonder.
Baby steps.
Baby steps.
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