RobinsFly

So I realize that AH will follow his own path to recovery, and I will do the same.

But....
I'm struggling with the fact that I am the one diving into information/resources about alcoholism, and AH is not.
He has been sober for five months, vowed to stop drinking, is seeing a counselor, and is rekindling old hobbies and interests. AH will not go to AA, he is not a reader, and he will not utilize online support boards. He has no sponsor and no buddies to talk to about this.

I look at him and think "do you really get it?"
How can you become sober if you don't learn about alcoholism? :scratchhead:

I know, I know....all I can do is focus on me. I am. And part of that focus is trying to figure out if I want to stay married to someone who doesn't appear to be taking the "necessary" steps.

make sense?

LaTeeDa

My husband got sober about 4 or 5 months after I kicked him out of the house. I agonized over his choices, his steps, whether he was doing what I thought he "needed" to do. What finally helped clear things up for me was taking the alcoholism/recovery out of it all together. Ask yourself if his behavior is acceptable? Is he the partner you want in your life? Step back from all the minutia of what he's reading, how many meetings he's attending, etc. Can you accept him exactly as he is? Assuming what he is doing or not doing is the best he has to offer, is that enough for YOU? Making him "get it" is not an option, but you can choose to "get it" if you want.

L

miss communicat

yes, it does make sense to listen to, question, and eventually reconcile these strong inner messages.

what you are describing sounds like what someone here recently wrote about in another thread, the concept of one partner being the over functioning partner in a relationship.

i have often followed that pattern myself. eventually, i'd find myself resentful of the inequities on all levels. so, why did i do it over and over again?

it gave me a sense of role and purpose. my caretaker role, my brilliant successes defined me. i measured my self worth by my knowledge and expertise, my busy-ness and overdoingness. i made myself needed and indispensable. perhaps i was insecure.

in your case, these awarenesses are going to help you see who and what you are all about in the marriage. keep posting here. there are so many of us who can relate to you.

RobinsFly

Oy, these are really scary questions.

I'm not sure if I can accept him, if (in my eyes) he is doing a bare minimum to learn about his addiction.

Can I say to him, "If this is the best you have to offer, then I don't know if I can continue in the marriage" ??

His typical response has always been, "I'm not doing enough for YOU"


Yes, yes and yes. I am becoming very resentful of this inequality.

I don't know if I'm a caretaker, but I have controlling tendencies. Why don't you read, or seek support, or go to meetings?!!!

I am also in the middle of a graduate program that is forcing me to do self-inquiry. I feel like my brain will explode with so much new insight.
AH is content to simply stop drinking and go about life as usual. We are very different this way. He is a hard-working 'salt of the earth' type of person and I have this hunger for knowledge and connection.

I'm scared because I desperately want more engagement.

RobinsFly

I appreciate the honesty.

What was I hoping to see? Good question.
I was hoping a light would go on. He would dive into information and resources. He would become actively involved and would stop being passive.

I'm starting to get it.
If this marriage is to survive, I will have to accept him as he is. But, the hard part is figuring out if I can do this. He has so many positive qualities. But, we do feel like strangers. :sigh:

miss communicat

when i was ever in a relationship with someone that i was hoping to see certain tangible and measurable changes in, it became a fast and slippery slope from there to utter craziness (on my part). when said measurable changes failed to manifest on my timetable to the degree that i approved of, the subtly controlling digs, the passive-aggressive underhanded remarks that I've heard myself say are cringewothy from where i am today, looking back.

i was as addicted to controlling as the A in my life was to alcohol. I was as addicted to being right, as the A was content in maintaining his own viewpoint.

somewhere, along the way, I got it. I no longer required him to "get it".

i got that I needed to accept people, places and things as they are. that i cannot conttrol people, places and things. that the one i can control is me, and my attitude.

RobinsFly

Now my brain really is going to explode. yikes.

I probably continued w/ the relationship for several reasons:
-Besides the drinking, AH always tried to please me. I took this as care and support. Now, I see his co-dependence.
-We experienced long-term infertility, and I thought THIS was a main reason for so many of our problems.
-I didn't know anything about alcoholism or co-dependency
-I became attached.
-He is a good person
-Now, we have two young kids together

A part of me thinks, I am too judgmental and want things to be "just right". So, I should learn to fully accept him. No one is perfect.
Then, another part thinks, AH and I are simply too different. Perhaps I value self-awareness and desire for growth/insight too much. Thing is, he may just go about it very differently from me.

Sorry, this is very confusing.

RobinsFly

Clouds parting. Bells ringing. Light going on !!!

I don't know if you're familiar w/ the Enneagram and 9 personality types, but I am a classic One. Can you tell?
I just never equated my need to be "right" with his alcoholism. Now I see it.

So, the question becomes, what happens in the relationship once this passive/control dynamic dissipates?
It feels like we are starting from zero.

miss communicat

this discussion reminds me of a lightbulb discussion i had with a sponsor a few years back. after i outlined all the things i found unacceptable about my bf at the time, like how he was codependent, ambivalent, not insightful enough, etc...she said to me, '"good observations. now, for 1 week, make HIS inventory your inventory, and see what comes up". Basically, she was gently (or not so gently) suggesting that i look inside me, to see where I contributed to the problem. What was MY role in the co-dependence? What was MY role in the ambivalence?....etc....

Barbara52

Which is not the same as settling for less than you want in life.

I accept that my xAH is an alcoholic with no recovery likely to happen and who leeched off first me and now his mother. I accept that his choices are not ones I would make but they are what he wants for himself.

I also know that I wanted and now have ever so much more in my life.

Yup. Sometimes people just grow in different directions. That is what happened with my first marriage. Neither of us were at fault. We married young and became people who went in different directions. My kids were young when we divorced.

miss communicat

this point is very important. Acceptance is not settling.....

Ago

makes perfect sense to me

"quitting drinking" is not "recovery" and actually has very little to do with actual "recovery", it's a necessary component but that's all.

For me I actually had to get to the point where my happiness didn't hinge on someone else's choices about alcohol.

I don't know.....it's just for me, I have been in relationships where "I did all the work" and that failed miserably, not only did the break up go poorly, but the relationship itself sucked, I have been in a relationship where we "did the work together" that seemed to work a lot better, and the break up (because I moved) was amicable and she is my best friend today.

I just can't be in a relationship where we don't have a "common language" any more, many are able to "pull that off" but I just don't happen to be one of those people.

I'm seeing someone now that has done a "ton" of work on herself, and the relationship appears "effortless" because we have the same "tools", we have both spent quite a bit of time on ourselves so when something comes up we navigate it using "fair fighting", "Time outs", offering each other "what do you need from me?", "what can I do for you around this?" setting healthy boundaries, all these granola sounding concepts that I hated for so long but that actually really work.

When she is "vulnerable" I am supportive, and vice versa, If I say "this scares me" or "I don't understand this, can you explain" she will...

It's so good it's scary, I have literally had panic attacks and thought I was going crazy because it seemed "too good to be true" and had to reach out to my support group...it's really frightening sometimes, like you think to yourself, "OK this has to be the most elaborate hoax since Orson Welles did War of The Worlds, no one can be this nice, this loving, this communicative, this all has to be a lie, what does she really want, when is the "real her" going to rear it's ugly head, when is she going to "destroy me", hurt me, punch me and run away?"

It's not "effortless" as in it "doesn't require effort" it's "effortless" because all things seem to flow, and even our "conflicts" if you want to call them that bring us closer together rather then driving a wedge between us. It's "effortless" because of all of the years we have spent "working on ourselves".

The other thing iss by doing this we create a "safe place" where we can absolutely tell each other the truth, be vulnerable...that's like....crazy......we can literally be "on each other's side" The greatest complimest I had ever recieved was "you are the first Boy I ever met that is actually "on my side" prior to this relation (my best compliments now are too personal to share yet hee hee) that safe place expands and keeps expanding to where I am now talking about things I never even knew were there in so many areas it's not even funny.

My first experience with that was in a long term relationship with my BFF, when she refused to "fight" she would "hold still" and "state her truth" and be so amazingly vulnerable that it literally changed who I was as a human being. It really does take "two to tango" and she "modeled" that behavior for me for years. Now when people talk about how much "work" a relationship takes, and how it's a "struggle", and that you can't expect things like 100% honesty, and love, and understanding in a relationship, I can respond "that's not my experience" I have had all of these things in a relationship, and that's what gives me "hope" I guess for lack of a better word, confidence is a better one I guess, that this thing is in fact possible, that wonderful healthy relationships are possible, and that it's not a "pipe dream" or a "fantasy".


Like someone said here "Life is too long to spend it with someone I don't like" and something like "I refuse to make someone the most important thing in my world when all I am to them is an option"

My Father is about half smart, and about half spiritual, and we were talking about life, love, sculpting, surfing etc. and he said "Son, if it's easy, it's right, and if it's hard, it's wrong."

Now, the only way I can "relate" this to my life is by talking about "surfing" the first few years you surf, it's amazingly difficult, the waves toss you around, hold you under, the board hits you in the face, it's a miserable experience with enough "bright moments" to keep you coming back.

After 20 years of surfing, it's effortless, the waves that wash everyone else under and make them panic, and wash them all the way back to shore, you ride in a beautiful and graceful manner.

It took many years of pain and suffering to achieve this and if you have never surfed, you will never understand...to me, healthy relationships are like this.

I got sober over 16 years ago in order to be able to have a relationship with those around me. I have been working on this ever since, I have suffered setbacks, I drank twice, I have taken side roads, I have had all my dreams come true, I have lost everything.

What I carry with me now is "interior" and doesn't rely on others to work, but now I am back in this place, I don't have time to be with anyone that hasn't put the same time and effort into themselves. Laurie talked about not getting into a relationship with an alcoholic unless they had at least ten years of "sobriety", well I expand on that here, I feel that way about alcoholics or codependents, and when I found that person, my life became magic.

It has been magic before, so I know it's real, well it's magic again, and this time I plan on not "losing my focus" and showing a little more appreciation, it came too easily last time, this time it cost me a little more pain and suffering, I will continue to "work" on myself, and "work" on doing "my part" and work on "growing closer" so I don't "grow apart".

They talk about "being willing to go to any length" to get sober, I have shown that willingness for 16 years, for both "sobriety, and an "ability to commit" in a relationship, I'll be damned if I spend my life with anyone that doesn't show, not talk about, but show that same willingness to be in a relationship.

sorry this was so long, it was important to me

RobinsFly

breathe....


Not totally.
But, part of his work in counseling is to find thing/activities that HE enjoys. And I believe he is becoming aware of his need to speak up, and say NO when needed. Yes, I can take a NO!

A big part of his personality is this need to merge and please others. On the surface this appears so "nice". But, in the end, resentment builds because he goes along with things he doesn't want to.
He must learn to have a stronger self. IMO, he used alcohol as a way to hide from himself (and life).

One thing I have decided - if his passivity continues, the relationship will most likely end.

miss communicat

ago

thank you for all your good words and offerings of possibility!

LaTeeDa

I will share my story, not because I assume it is the same as yours, but because there may be parts of it you can relate to.

After I kicked him out, he went on drinking for several months. He was relieved to be able to do whatever he wanted without me nagging him. Then, after it got to be not so much fun, he decided to quit. I was cautious. He had quit a number of times before, some for several months, so I didn't get all happy about it. Then, once it appeared he was serious about being sober, we talked about reconciliation. We decided not to rush into anything because it would be harder on the kids to let him go *again* if it ultimately didn't work out.

During the time we were trying to get our marriage back, I found myself asking the questions you are asking. Why isn't he doing more? How come he doesn't go to AA? Why won't he read the books I keep suggesting? (LOL)

Over time, I came to realize that those were excuses--for me. He used to say to me all the time "no matter what I do, it will never make you happy." He was right. I was the only one who could make me happy, only I didn't quite realize it yet. We had grown apart over the years, in many ways. The drinking only made our differences bigger, but the differences were there nonetheless.

In a relationship, you either grow together, or you grow apart. We had grown apart. Our life's ambitions, goals, ideals, values, were no longer the same. When I was picking apart his recovery, what I was really doing was looking for reasons to end the marriage. I did not want to admit that I had changed (probably even more than him) and that we were no longer on the same page of life. I wanted to justify ending the marriage because of him rather than own the responsibility of wanting out.

Eventually, I did admit that it was me who wanted something different. That I had changed so much I could no longer accept who he was as my partner in life. There was a time he was exactly who I wanted in my life. That time had passed. In a way, I guess I "outgrew" him, sad as that sounds.

I'm so happy and grateful that I didn't stay married out of guilt. We have a nice, amicable relationship now and co-parent our children free of the tension and resentment of an unhappy marriage. I have a man in my life who respects me and cares about me. He also keeps me honest by calling me on it when my thinking starts to get twisted. He is a wonderful *part* of my life. But, my life is my own. It doesn't revolve around him or anyone else. Three years ago, I never could have imagined my life would be like this. I have learned that living only takes place in the present. Fretting about the future or agonizing over the past robs me of today.

Maybe just doing what is right for you today is enough. Maybe tomorrow you will do something else. Can you just take today at face value and wait for tomorrow to come before you decide what you will do tomorrow?

L

Pajarito

I second that ago. . . I think a lot about what I want in a relationship, and you nailed it. Thank you.

RobinsFly

wow, thanks for all the feedback and personal stories. I can't tell you how much it helps.

I'm having a hard time right now. (even crying)

I'll post more later....

GiveLove

hi robins,

Such great thinking above. Gosh, I love this place

I once lived with a man who, it turned out, was extremely passive. I was unhappy, and told him so. We worked at finding common ground. But he had no interest in changing - nor ability to change - his basic nature. He wanted an aggressive partner to make things go.

Several years ago, I met and began a relationship with a man who was also fairly passive (too busy being "in love," I didn't notice the pattern again) When the glow wore off and I began a huge program of self-exploration, I found myself unhappy again. And again we worked on finding common ground.

This is the man I'm still married to. And his passivity is only a fraction of what it once was. He was actually interested in an equal partnership, but never having had it modeled for him when young, he didn't know what it looked like or felt like. We worked together to create something new that worked for both of us.

Just to say that he might be perfectly happy with who he is and how he does things, and your E1 perfectionism might be making you both miserable. Or he might be adventurous enough to work with you on this and establish some new groundrules. Sounds like your answer may lie in here somewhere. Can you do counseling together to try to come closer to an answer for yourselves?

By the way, not to be grumpy or anything but these are words that only someone who's never struggled with addiction would say:
You're jamming an enormous effort into a tiny thimble there...y'know?

This from an enneagram 4 - your worst nightmare - so please don't hold it against me

GiveLove

P.S. Robins.........hugs to you right now. I know this cliff you're staring over all too well.

miss communicat

quick hijack: me, too. E4.

okay, back to regularly scheduled posting....