The Lies
Being Silent so I can Hear
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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The Lies
Just something I've been pondering lately. The lies an alcoholic/addict tells are simply incredible. Maybe I've been away from my AH long enough now that I can see them more clearly.
I've always referred to his lying as a form of mental illness, and I'm not sure that this isn't accurate at this point. I'm not so sure he even knows what the truth is.
I found something interesting out on the internet about this:
This is 100% spot on for my AH, I have observed that he has no social skills to speak of, he mimics others to get along and seem "normal".
Depressing isn't it? So, my question is, when you have someone who has done this all of his life - how in the world do you get past that? I'm not asking for myself, as I don't foresee ever reconciling with my AH - I'm asking for others who may find themselves in similar straits. People who do this are living a lie in every aspect of their lives! Their past is made up, their mannerisms are faked, the only truth in their lives is that it is a lie.
I was aware of this when mine went into rehab, and tried to point this out to the counselors, but they dismissed me. How can you move forward in recovery when you're lying about your past? And I'm not talking about bad things in your past, I'm talking about making up careers and episodes. Maybe it's not a complete fabrication, but a lie with a grain of truth....like an Army corporal would tell people he was a General or something.
Am I making any sense?
ETA: Here's the link to the article I quoted.
I've always referred to his lying as a form of mental illness, and I'm not sure that this isn't accurate at this point. I'm not so sure he even knows what the truth is.
I found something interesting out on the internet about this:
It is important for you to know how the psychology of chemical dependency gets going. In childhood we come to believe in the great lie. This lie is at the core of alcoholism or drug addiction. We do not hear this lie from our parents or from our friends. We don't hear it from our teachers or from television. It is more powerful than that. We hear this lie inside of our own thinking, inside of that most personal part of ourselves. The lie is this: If you tell anyone the whole truth about you, they won't like you.
Once we hear this lie and believe this lie, we know that we will never be loved for who we are. Therefore to get any of the good stuff out of life at all, we have to pretend to be someone that we are not. We try to be someone else. We watch those people who are popular and we copy them. We are very careful about what kind of clothes we wear. We copy people's mannerisms and their fine little gestures. We find ourselves cocking our heads in a certain way when we laugh or smile. We are hoping to fool the people. We hope that they cannot see the real me. We want them to see the pretend me.
Once we hear this lie and believe this lie, we know that we will never be loved for who we are. Therefore to get any of the good stuff out of life at all, we have to pretend to be someone that we are not. We try to be someone else. We watch those people who are popular and we copy them. We are very careful about what kind of clothes we wear. We copy people's mannerisms and their fine little gestures. We find ourselves cocking our heads in a certain way when we laugh or smile. We are hoping to fool the people. We hope that they cannot see the real me. We want them to see the pretend me.
You must look carefully at what is happening. We have fooled people into liking us--but they don't really like us--they don't know us; we are keeping who we are secret. As we keep doing this, making this effort to be loved, our emptiness grows, our pain increases. We try hard. We copy everyone that looks cool. We put on the best false front we can, but in time, we realize it isn't going to work. We feel more and more lonely and isolated. We have known all along, that we weren't going to be loved, not for the real us. No one was going to love us.
I was aware of this when mine went into rehab, and tried to point this out to the counselors, but they dismissed me. How can you move forward in recovery when you're lying about your past? And I'm not talking about bad things in your past, I'm talking about making up careers and episodes. Maybe it's not a complete fabrication, but a lie with a grain of truth....like an Army corporal would tell people he was a General or something.
Am I making any sense?
ETA: Here's the link to the article I quoted.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
My oldest AD is a compulsive liar, and has been for many years. I think she has mental issues that extend far beyond her addictions.
It is what it is, and our communication is very sparse.
Today I concentrate on my recovery.
It is what it is, and our communication is very sparse.
Today I concentrate on my recovery.
Yield beautiful changes
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: A home filled with love
Posts: 1,694
Originally Posted by Still Waters 
Their past is made up, their mannerisms are faked, the only truth in their lives is that it is a lie.
I lied to everyone, including myself, for a long time.
I lied so much, that I didn't even know what was true anymore.
"He'd love to go with us, but he's tired."
"He wants to spend time with me, but he's busy."
"He'd like to visit my family, but he's working."
I knew that my husband lied about drinking (and probably some other stuff, too.)
I started to get better when I began to recognize just how dishonest I had been.
-TC
Being Silent so I can Hear
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,521
Excellent point ToughChoices. I didn't tell lies, I simply didn't communicate with people, total isolation. And when I did speak with family I avoided the issue.
Lie by omission I suppose.
Lie by omission I suppose.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 52
Wow. Thanks for that info. Sad stuff. Something to ponder for sure since my XABF lied so much about everything it makes my head spin. I think the compulsive lying is easily as damaging as the drinking/drugs. And I do agree that it quite possibly is a symptom of a mental illness, but that fact doesn't make it any more tolerable.
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: looking for the sun in cold MN
Posts: 775
Same here TC.
My STBXAH was and still is a masterful liar- in the obvious ways.
My form of lying was harder for me to see. I didn't realize it at the time, but I just so badly wanted that picture I had in my mind of us as the "perfect family." I wanted to be like my (seemingly) more adjusted, successful friends. Unfortunately, my STBXAH wasn't working within my plan- No, no, no- alcoholism? That isn't what I wanted! So, I hid it too. I hid it from my friends and family because I was ashamed, and I wanted HIM to change. Now I realize how dishonest I was with everyone- including myself. Now, I focus on what is real. I try to be honest with myself about who I am, what I want- and what is realistic. I can't be perfect. And my life is what it is- with all the ups and downs.
My STBXAH was and still is a masterful liar- in the obvious ways.
My form of lying was harder for me to see. I didn't realize it at the time, but I just so badly wanted that picture I had in my mind of us as the "perfect family." I wanted to be like my (seemingly) more adjusted, successful friends. Unfortunately, my STBXAH wasn't working within my plan- No, no, no- alcoholism? That isn't what I wanted! So, I hid it too. I hid it from my friends and family because I was ashamed, and I wanted HIM to change. Now I realize how dishonest I was with everyone- including myself. Now, I focus on what is real. I try to be honest with myself about who I am, what I want- and what is realistic. I can't be perfect. And my life is what it is- with all the ups and downs.
Being Silent so I can Hear
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,521
Interesting bit of additional reading I found on another thread here about addicts and lying:
Korsakoff's syndrome
Korsakoff's syndrome
There are six major symptoms of Korsakoff's syndrome:
1. anterograde amnesia and
2. retrograde amnesia, severe memory loss
3. confabulation, that is, invented memories which are then taken as true due to gaps in memory sometimes associated with blackouts
4. meager content in conversation
5. lack of insight
6. apathy - the patients lose interest in things quickly and generally appear indifferent to change.
1. anterograde amnesia and
2. retrograde amnesia, severe memory loss
3. confabulation, that is, invented memories which are then taken as true due to gaps in memory sometimes associated with blackouts
4. meager content in conversation
5. lack of insight
6. apathy - the patients lose interest in things quickly and generally appear indifferent to change.
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Join Date: Dec 2006
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Posts: 4,706
Still Waters, your original post was so sad and true. Not long ago, our own Ago posted a terrific a-ha about a similar topic, only from a different slant -- a lot of us, not just alcoholics, go to great lengths to control what others know about us & our lives, because we think we will not be lovable if someone really knows "the truth" about us. I have seen people stay in bad relationships because they're convinced they've found the only human in existence who can love them, because this human knows "the truth" and still stays with them.
Usually, "the truth" seems to be this: That we're human. We make mistakes. We're still works in progress. We have imperfections that we're still working on.
One thing that always amazes me about SR is the beauty of the people here, many of whom are trying hard to craft their life into something happier. It brings tears to my eyes sometimes...I don't think of these people (alcoholic or not) as imperfect. I see them as impossibly brave for putting their truth out there.
Thanks for your post, not only because of what it says about alcoholism but also about what it says about a bigger slice of life. Sad for your husband, that he has chosen this road; happy for you, that you're finding a different way to see things.
Usually, "the truth" seems to be this: That we're human. We make mistakes. We're still works in progress. We have imperfections that we're still working on.
One thing that always amazes me about SR is the beauty of the people here, many of whom are trying hard to craft their life into something happier. It brings tears to my eyes sometimes...I don't think of these people (alcoholic or not) as imperfect. I see them as impossibly brave for putting their truth out there.
Thanks for your post, not only because of what it says about alcoholism but also about what it says about a bigger slice of life. Sad for your husband, that he has chosen this road; happy for you, that you're finding a different way to see things.
Yield beautiful changes
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: A home filled with love
Posts: 1,694
Korsakoff's dementia is an incredibly sad, severe consequence of long-term alcoholism.
I'm sure that in some cases the common-place lying, sneaky, embellishing behavior that is so text-book for active addicts is an early sign of this terrible form of chronic amnesia. For many it's not.
Today, for me, why my alcoholic lies doesn't matter all that much.
He just does.
Maybe it's an early sign of neurological impairment. Maybe he just can't face the truth (I've been there!).
It was much more helpful to me to examine why I lied, omitted, etc....
I don't know what goes on inside anyone else's head.
I'm sure that in some cases the common-place lying, sneaky, embellishing behavior that is so text-book for active addicts is an early sign of this terrible form of chronic amnesia. For many it's not.
Today, for me, why my alcoholic lies doesn't matter all that much.
He just does.
Maybe it's an early sign of neurological impairment. Maybe he just can't face the truth (I've been there!).
It was much more helpful to me to examine why I lied, omitted, etc....
I don't know what goes on inside anyone else's head.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 517
Originally Posted by ToughChoices
I am not an alcoholic. I lived with and loved one.
I lied to everyone, including myself, for a long time.
I lied so much, that I didn't even know what was true anymore.
"He'd love to go with us, but he's tired."
"He wants to spend time with me, but he's busy."
"He'd like to visit my family, but he's working."
I knew that my husband lied about drinking (and probably some other stuff, too.)
I started to get better when I began to recognize just how dishonest I had been.
-TC
I lied to everyone, including myself, for a long time.
I lied so much, that I didn't even know what was true anymore.
"He'd love to go with us, but he's tired."
"He wants to spend time with me, but he's busy."
"He'd like to visit my family, but he's working."
I knew that my husband lied about drinking (and probably some other stuff, too.)
I started to get better when I began to recognize just how dishonest I had been.
-TC
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,582
I lied about mine too.
I wanted others to see what a great guy he was, and build up his self esteem. I would brag about how smart, funny or handsome he was. I would talk about what job he would have in the future. He was a lawyer, but hasn't practiced in 3 1/2 years, so I would always talk about his future plans.
We also traveled a bit, so we always talked about that. I would research and plan all of the trips. He now travels with his new fiance to those same places and stays in the same hotels... I guess even after I am gone, I am still helping him score points. (not very funny)
I wanted others to see what a great guy he was, and build up his self esteem. I would brag about how smart, funny or handsome he was. I would talk about what job he would have in the future. He was a lawyer, but hasn't practiced in 3 1/2 years, so I would always talk about his future plans.
We also traveled a bit, so we always talked about that. I would research and plan all of the trips. He now travels with his new fiance to those same places and stays in the same hotels... I guess even after I am gone, I am still helping him score points. (not very funny)
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
My xAh never lied about his drinking. He saw absolutely nothing wrong with his drinking. But I lied to cover for him numerous times. I didn't allow that fact to enter my consciousness for a long time. I'm glad I don't lie to cover for him or anyone else anymore. I'm even more glad I no longer lie to myself about reality.
Awakening
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beautiful Texas hillcountry
Posts: 1,272
When my DD was in kindergarten she was getting into alot of trouble at school, of course she was, she was living in an alcohol induced hell. My wife and I were summoned to school for a sit down with her teacher, principal, counselor etc.
I lied to cover for my grown alcoholic wife, and in doing so, allowed my precious, innocent 5yo daughter to fade all that heat on her own.
NOT my proudest moment.
I will never lie for anyone again, not myself or even my daughter.
Thanks and God bless us all, :praying
Coyote
I lied to cover for my grown alcoholic wife, and in doing so, allowed my precious, innocent 5yo daughter to fade all that heat on her own.
NOT my proudest moment.
I will never lie for anyone again, not myself or even my daughter.
Thanks and God bless us all, :praying
Coyote
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Location: where the streets have no name
Posts: 1,078
I have discussed the "lie" issue with many recovering addicts. Basically they say it became automatic and you "just lie" the doctors can cite psychological mechanisms and that can be interesting to study, however it doesn't change the bottom line.
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
This is actually a huge part of recovery from alcoholism and I hear about various forms of "If they know who I am, they won't like me" nearly daily at meetings and from friends.
The Alcoholic is very much an "Actor" and he has a "stage persona"
The first time I saw this was from a roommate, when we were out, he was a jolly well met outgoing fellow that absolutely "put on a show" at home he was actually very pleasant to be around.
Then for me, I invited some friends to my birthday party about twenty years ago (two brothers) and they didn't come. I had been friends with them for many years, and when they didn't come, my feelings were very hurt.
I asked one why he didn't come, and he said, "Andrew, we don't like you when you are around all your "friends" that's not the Andrew we know and Love.
That hurt a lot, but I knew it was true.
When I got sober shortly thereafter that was one of the things I (we) faced, first by doing a full fifth step and telling all our "deep dark secrets we would take to our grave" and hearing others do the same, really made me begin to get comfortable in my own skin.
After a few years telling the truth became second nature, it just became part of who I was.
Now it got tricky when I got involved with both my family and an active alcoholic at the same time.
They all had either completely distorted views of reality and the truth was they were all pathological liars, not because they wanted to, but because that was literally their reality.
After a period of time, their reality became mine, whenever I would "tell the truth" and either demand accountability or just "pull their covers" the repercussions were immediate and severe, very severe, so after a year or two of this I got really sick as well.
My xagf constantly accused me of being a "chronic discloser" in order to protect her own lies and the web of deceit she had built around her own "persona" after a few years I began to doubt my own reality, then I started making excuses about her behavior, first to myself, then to my friends, then I had to start lying to myself in a very real way just to stay with her.
"we" drink to make the "unacceptable" acceptable as alcoholics (among other reasons, but it's one reason, it's part of the disease) but as a codependent I began lying to myself for the same reasons, and it was a lot more subtle because with alcoholism "drinking" is the problem, it took me quite a few years to realize I was the problem, not drinking, with my "co'ing" "they" were the problem, it was much more difficult to see "my part" when "the problem" was so obvious....them.
The truth of the matter is "my problem" might have your name on it, but "my solution" always has my name on it, and being with an active alcoholic, your problem soon becomes mine, I just can't see it, because "you" are the problem, it's the "frog in the boiling water" deal...it happens slow...but after a while I was just as sick as anyone else "in the picture".
"self delusion" is absolutely insidious and comes in many forms, but for me, if I am drinking, or concentrating on someone else's "problem" such as drinking, or someone else "is" the problem (if I am being codependent) I am doing the same thing, finding ways to avoid looking at myself....it's two sides to the same coin.
I was told once if I was actually "working my own program" I would be so busy I wouldn't have time to be "taking someone else's inventory" because I would be so busy working on myself I wouldn't even "see" that other person, it took me nearly fifteen years to understand that.
For me today, finger pointing, blame, getting wrapped up in someone else is in a very real way no different then picking up a drink, in a very short period of time I get sick and all I am trying to do is avoid looking at me anyway, which never works.
The Alcoholic is very much an "Actor" and he has a "stage persona"
The first time I saw this was from a roommate, when we were out, he was a jolly well met outgoing fellow that absolutely "put on a show" at home he was actually very pleasant to be around.
Then for me, I invited some friends to my birthday party about twenty years ago (two brothers) and they didn't come. I had been friends with them for many years, and when they didn't come, my feelings were very hurt.
I asked one why he didn't come, and he said, "Andrew, we don't like you when you are around all your "friends" that's not the Andrew we know and Love.
That hurt a lot, but I knew it was true.
When I got sober shortly thereafter that was one of the things I (we) faced, first by doing a full fifth step and telling all our "deep dark secrets we would take to our grave" and hearing others do the same, really made me begin to get comfortable in my own skin.
After a few years telling the truth became second nature, it just became part of who I was.
Now it got tricky when I got involved with both my family and an active alcoholic at the same time.
They all had either completely distorted views of reality and the truth was they were all pathological liars, not because they wanted to, but because that was literally their reality.
After a period of time, their reality became mine, whenever I would "tell the truth" and either demand accountability or just "pull their covers" the repercussions were immediate and severe, very severe, so after a year or two of this I got really sick as well.
My xagf constantly accused me of being a "chronic discloser" in order to protect her own lies and the web of deceit she had built around her own "persona" after a few years I began to doubt my own reality, then I started making excuses about her behavior, first to myself, then to my friends, then I had to start lying to myself in a very real way just to stay with her.
"we" drink to make the "unacceptable" acceptable as alcoholics (among other reasons, but it's one reason, it's part of the disease) but as a codependent I began lying to myself for the same reasons, and it was a lot more subtle because with alcoholism "drinking" is the problem, it took me quite a few years to realize I was the problem, not drinking, with my "co'ing" "they" were the problem, it was much more difficult to see "my part" when "the problem" was so obvious....them.
The truth of the matter is "my problem" might have your name on it, but "my solution" always has my name on it, and being with an active alcoholic, your problem soon becomes mine, I just can't see it, because "you" are the problem, it's the "frog in the boiling water" deal...it happens slow...but after a while I was just as sick as anyone else "in the picture".
"self delusion" is absolutely insidious and comes in many forms, but for me, if I am drinking, or concentrating on someone else's "problem" such as drinking, or someone else "is" the problem (if I am being codependent) I am doing the same thing, finding ways to avoid looking at myself....it's two sides to the same coin.
I was told once if I was actually "working my own program" I would be so busy I wouldn't have time to be "taking someone else's inventory" because I would be so busy working on myself I wouldn't even "see" that other person, it took me nearly fifteen years to understand that.
For me today, finger pointing, blame, getting wrapped up in someone else is in a very real way no different then picking up a drink, in a very short period of time I get sick and all I am trying to do is avoid looking at me anyway, which never works.
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Someplace USA
Posts: 415
There's a great book called the Addictive Personality (or something close to that). In that it said that the addict has to lie to protect the addiction and create an altered reality. That's my paraphrase.
That I really believe. There are many times my AH husband will be lying to my face and I'll know the truth. Even shown the truth he'll fight me that his lie IS the truth and I'm wrong. I told my therapist once that I thought the only person in the house that believed his BS lies anymore was him and she did try to explain what I wrote above. It kind of took me reading that book until I got an "AHa" moment.
That book is really worth reading.
That I really believe. There are many times my AH husband will be lying to my face and I'll know the truth. Even shown the truth he'll fight me that his lie IS the truth and I'm wrong. I told my therapist once that I thought the only person in the house that believed his BS lies anymore was him and she did try to explain what I wrote above. It kind of took me reading that book until I got an "AHa" moment.
That book is really worth reading.
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