forgiveness
Getting Over It
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: somewhere out there
Posts: 110
forgiveness
RAH and I have been seeing a counselor. The counslor seems focused on my lack of forgiveness for what occurred in out marriage because of his drinking. My question is this: Exactly HOW do I forgive him? Are there steps you have taken to forgive your A?
He has been dry for the last 19 months. He was doing the same things, anger issues, tantrums, threats, etc, until a month ago. The counselor finally called him on it. He MAY be seeing the light now, but I am not getting my hopes up yet. He seems a little easier to live with for now.
I thought that I was beginning to forgive him, letting go of the anger, in relation to the things he didnt repeat while sober.
I dont even know that I wnt to continue the marriage, but i do know, that no matter what, I need to find forgiveness.
Any suggestions??
He has been dry for the last 19 months. He was doing the same things, anger issues, tantrums, threats, etc, until a month ago. The counselor finally called him on it. He MAY be seeing the light now, but I am not getting my hopes up yet. He seems a little easier to live with for now.
I thought that I was beginning to forgive him, letting go of the anger, in relation to the things he didnt repeat while sober.
I dont even know that I wnt to continue the marriage, but i do know, that no matter what, I need to find forgiveness.
Any suggestions??
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
So, let me get this straight: AH's actual behavior has only seen a change in the last 1 (ONE!) month and you feel like your therapist is pressuring you to forgive him?????? And this after he/she had allowed your AH to do the dry drunk thing for 18 months before calling him out on it????? Something's wrong with this picture.......
To be perfectly blunt, I have to say that my gut reaction is that you need to get a new therapist. I mean, in all fairness, you might want to first point out to the therapist how you are feeling and what you are sensing and see how he/she reacts (A good therapist will react calmly and not get defensive and will answer your questions and address your concerns carefully and thoroughly and in a way that is not condenscending or authoritartian.)....but unless you feel confident that this person has or can develop a more realistic, understanding attitude toward you and the position you are in and what you've been through, I don't really see how his/her approach can actually be helpful to/healthy for you.
Forgivenss -- in the very broad sense of coming to an acceptance of what has happened in the past and not allowing it to continue to hijack your energy or compromise your serenity -- is definitely a good long-term goal......but rushing yourself and pressuring yourself (or allowing yourself to be rushed and pressured) is probably not wise. If you work on taking care of yourself and on your own healing and recovery, you will eventually get to the place where forgiveness in this sense will be possible for you...but you have a lot of healing to do, too, and good healing cannot be rushed.....(and a good therapist should know and respect that).
freya
BTW, a great, realistic book on healthy, self-respectful forgiveness is How Can I forgive You?: The Courage to Forgive, The Freedom Not To, by Janis Spring
To be perfectly blunt, I have to say that my gut reaction is that you need to get a new therapist. I mean, in all fairness, you might want to first point out to the therapist how you are feeling and what you are sensing and see how he/she reacts (A good therapist will react calmly and not get defensive and will answer your questions and address your concerns carefully and thoroughly and in a way that is not condenscending or authoritartian.)....but unless you feel confident that this person has or can develop a more realistic, understanding attitude toward you and the position you are in and what you've been through, I don't really see how his/her approach can actually be helpful to/healthy for you.
Forgivenss -- in the very broad sense of coming to an acceptance of what has happened in the past and not allowing it to continue to hijack your energy or compromise your serenity -- is definitely a good long-term goal......but rushing yourself and pressuring yourself (or allowing yourself to be rushed and pressured) is probably not wise. If you work on taking care of yourself and on your own healing and recovery, you will eventually get to the place where forgiveness in this sense will be possible for you...but you have a lot of healing to do, too, and good healing cannot be rushed.....(and a good therapist should know and respect that).
freya
BTW, a great, realistic book on healthy, self-respectful forgiveness is How Can I forgive You?: The Courage to Forgive, The Freedom Not To, by Janis Spring
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: California
Posts: 164
Your post has made me think. It has been 4 years (5 in March) that my AH has been in AA. I used to say sober but hes not always sober, just dry. He tends to still have the same crappy attitude he had when he was drinking.
I can forgive for a lot of things but I can not forget. Its not easy. When a person spends years, (around 20 in my case) putting up with all the stuff that goes along with progressive alcoholism, to just "forgive" and go on like everything is just sunshine now, is just asking too much.
What I have desided is that I have got to keep the focus on me. I move forward at my own pace. Sometimes its rapid and sometime a crawl sometimes a back slide.
Somethings might not be forgiveable right now, and if thats the case, then I think thats ok. I just don't let it eat me alive any more. Maybe thats the best I can do at this time and thats ok.
Be easy on yourself.
I can forgive for a lot of things but I can not forget. Its not easy. When a person spends years, (around 20 in my case) putting up with all the stuff that goes along with progressive alcoholism, to just "forgive" and go on like everything is just sunshine now, is just asking too much.
What I have desided is that I have got to keep the focus on me. I move forward at my own pace. Sometimes its rapid and sometime a crawl sometimes a back slide.
Somethings might not be forgiveable right now, and if thats the case, then I think thats ok. I just don't let it eat me alive any more. Maybe thats the best I can do at this time and thats ok.
Be easy on yourself.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
For me, true forgiveness comes in its own due time, not when someone tells me I need to forgive. Sometimes, it doesn't come at all, and then I know I need to move on.
A book I read a long time ago that helped me see the dynamics was "The Dance of Anger." I found it the least offensive about putting the burden on the woman.
Good luck!
A book I read a long time ago that helped me see the dynamics was "The Dance of Anger." I found it the least offensive about putting the burden on the woman.
Good luck!
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Someplace USA
Posts: 415
I think we need to forgive because if we don't that anger keeps us bound to the person we haven't forgiven. So really being forgiving is more about us healing and not about them.
That said I think it's really hard to forgive somebody who has hurt you every year, every month, every day. Especially when you still live with that person and they can still hurt you. It's like constantly picking at a scab; it just takes longer to heal!
I think it's only something time, you and your HP can do. I feel like you; I'm not sure if I even want my marriage to work. There are many times that I feel that true forgiveness is only going to come when I get some distance from the everyday living with my AH.
My feeling is that I can't forgive if the offense is still going on or if the old wounds just keep getting open. But that is just me...
That said I think it's really hard to forgive somebody who has hurt you every year, every month, every day. Especially when you still live with that person and they can still hurt you. It's like constantly picking at a scab; it just takes longer to heal!
I think it's only something time, you and your HP can do. I feel like you; I'm not sure if I even want my marriage to work. There are many times that I feel that true forgiveness is only going to come when I get some distance from the everyday living with my AH.
My feeling is that I can't forgive if the offense is still going on or if the old wounds just keep getting open. But that is just me...
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: TX
Posts: 163
I think that forgiveness is something that we can give for past offenses, BUT....big BUT here....
When the behavior continues, we just get RESENTFUL.
I can forgive my estranged AH. At this moment, I harbor no ill feelings toward him. However, he keeps doing the same thing over and over again (treating me badly) and one can only take so much.
If you need to grant forgiveness, your RAH needs to ask for it AND stop doing things he needs to apologize FOR.
JMHO.
When the behavior continues, we just get RESENTFUL.
I can forgive my estranged AH. At this moment, I harbor no ill feelings toward him. However, he keeps doing the same thing over and over again (treating me badly) and one can only take so much.
If you need to grant forgiveness, your RAH needs to ask for it AND stop doing things he needs to apologize FOR.
JMHO.
Ph.D in insanity!!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 698
You can forgive and not forget. Living with a dry drunk is no fun. I've had the displeasure of that. My husband is not even a month sober and is not at all like he was before. His attitude is nice. He is quick to make amends and do things calmly and he thinks about things. If he does slip with an alcoholic reaction he will correct it. My dh is trying really hard. I've let go of the past.
If I did not see a huge change in him then I could not go on living with him. This misery does not like company. I'd let go in a heartbeat before I was miserable again.
This is my experience
If I did not see a huge change in him then I could not go on living with him. This misery does not like company. I'd let go in a heartbeat before I was miserable again.
This is my experience
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
There is a difference between forgiveness and reconciliation.
I forgive someone in my heart for me, not the person who harmed me. Forgiveness may or may not lead to reconciliation where you can try to repair the damage in a relationship.
I think your therapist doesn't undestand that very important difference.
Forgiveness frees me from the control of the person who harmed me also. As long as I hold onto that harm, that person is retainling control of me to some extent or another. If I forgive (not forget or remove consequences BTW), I let go of something and can move on in whatever way seems best for me. Forgiveness cannot be forced on any timetable either as Denny said. You fogive when you are able, however long that takes.
I forgive someone in my heart for me, not the person who harmed me. Forgiveness may or may not lead to reconciliation where you can try to repair the damage in a relationship.
I think your therapist doesn't undestand that very important difference.
Forgiveness frees me from the control of the person who harmed me also. As long as I hold onto that harm, that person is retainling control of me to some extent or another. If I forgive (not forget or remove consequences BTW), I let go of something and can move on in whatever way seems best for me. Forgiveness cannot be forced on any timetable either as Denny said. You fogive when you are able, however long that takes.
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
I got angry with Richard for simple things (like not doing his share of household chores) and sometimes more serious offenses (like lying to me on occassion), but I was never angry at him for being an alcoholic. And my anger for the other offenses was always fleeting and short lived and I always forgave him just as quickly.
When I took a good, long look at my relationship with Richard it became clear to me that he simply couldn't live without drinking and I simply couldn't live with a drinker. He didn't drink to make me miserable. He drank to get through life. I can't imagine someone finding life so difficult that they need to numb themselves on a daily basis. But I didn't have a window into his childhood or his life before I met him. Who knew what demons he was fighting. He didn't share them with me. He was a quiet, reflective, and introspective man and he had trouble opening up to others.
Ultimately, I realized that his drinking had nothing to do with me. It wasn't personal. Richard was an alcoholic. He drank. He didn't do it to hurt me. He did it to protect himself from undisclosed demons and childhood wounds.
My mother always told me that one of my best qualities was that I could forgive anybody anything and I believe she's right. Richard was human, fallible, and imperfect. Just like I am.
I hold no anger towards him just as I hold no anger towards myself for hanging on to a broken relationship for way too long. We were two imperfect people who for a time loved each other very much, grew apart, and went our separate ways.
I don't regret having loved him.
When I took a good, long look at my relationship with Richard it became clear to me that he simply couldn't live without drinking and I simply couldn't live with a drinker. He didn't drink to make me miserable. He drank to get through life. I can't imagine someone finding life so difficult that they need to numb themselves on a daily basis. But I didn't have a window into his childhood or his life before I met him. Who knew what demons he was fighting. He didn't share them with me. He was a quiet, reflective, and introspective man and he had trouble opening up to others.
Ultimately, I realized that his drinking had nothing to do with me. It wasn't personal. Richard was an alcoholic. He drank. He didn't do it to hurt me. He did it to protect himself from undisclosed demons and childhood wounds.
My mother always told me that one of my best qualities was that I could forgive anybody anything and I believe she's right. Richard was human, fallible, and imperfect. Just like I am.
I hold no anger towards him just as I hold no anger towards myself for hanging on to a broken relationship for way too long. We were two imperfect people who for a time loved each other very much, grew apart, and went our separate ways.
I don't regret having loved him.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
I agree, FD. Any anger I occasionally feel for xAH is in response to his actions, drunk or not. I do know some of his demons. I also have some pretty nice ones. I used to wish I could drink to numb the pain of it all - but I get sick after 2 drinks. I am grateful for that.
Awakening
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beautiful Texas hillcountry
Posts: 1,272
There have been several threads lately where spouses have expressed that they weren't even sure if they really wanted to save their marriages.
Man, I can remember being exactly at that crossroads a few years ago. My XAW drank to self medicate, at first, because of all her demons, and that is truly very sad.
The realization I came to, after all the alcoholic crap that I allowed myself to be dragged thru (kept forgetting to "let go" of the rope!), was this....
If she stopped drinking RIGHT NOW, TODAY, it might still take years of hard work, therapy, AA meetings, ad infinitum, for both of us to try to repair the damage on both sides. :wtf2
I was TIRED. It just wasn't worth it to me, at best it would have been a crap shoot.
I had to decide that MY time was short (18 yrs her senior) and would be better spent on my own recovery, and enjoying what precious time Hp has left for me. My greatest fear is not having time to finish rearing DD, having to go before she's ready.:praying
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
P.S. The forgiveness thing, I still harbor a lot of stuff because my kid has no mom to speak of, guess if I'm honest it's my own guilt. I'm not so mad anymore. That, anger stuff just really sucks the life right out of me.
The saying, "they're not doing stuff TO US, they're just doing stuff", helps me to not take all that alcoholic crap so personally.
Man, I can remember being exactly at that crossroads a few years ago. My XAW drank to self medicate, at first, because of all her demons, and that is truly very sad.
The realization I came to, after all the alcoholic crap that I allowed myself to be dragged thru (kept forgetting to "let go" of the rope!), was this....
If she stopped drinking RIGHT NOW, TODAY, it might still take years of hard work, therapy, AA meetings, ad infinitum, for both of us to try to repair the damage on both sides. :wtf2
I was TIRED. It just wasn't worth it to me, at best it would have been a crap shoot.
I had to decide that MY time was short (18 yrs her senior) and would be better spent on my own recovery, and enjoying what precious time Hp has left for me. My greatest fear is not having time to finish rearing DD, having to go before she's ready.:praying
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
P.S. The forgiveness thing, I still harbor a lot of stuff because my kid has no mom to speak of, guess if I'm honest it's my own guilt. I'm not so mad anymore. That, anger stuff just really sucks the life right out of me.
The saying, "they're not doing stuff TO US, they're just doing stuff", helps me to not take all that alcoholic crap so personally.
Getting Over It
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: somewhere out there
Posts: 110
Sorry its taken so long to respond. Its been a busy week.
I didnt mean to insinuate that our counselor is "pressuring" me to forgive. He just asks weekly what I have done to work on it. He is a RA himself, and thats why we were referred to him. We have only been seeing him since July, I think.
RAH and I have been together over 18 yrs. Thats a lot of hurt.
Initially,I reread a book I have on forgiveness. I didnt get much out of it, so I made a list of RAH wrongdoings towards me and our sons, that I could remember. I prayed over it and asked for a healed heart.
Thats when I realized many of those things, he still did. A little differently and without alcohol, but he still did them. Manipulation, coercion, tantrums, uncontrolled anger, threats...
The counselor told RAH he needed to stop putting more stuff on my resentment pile or I would never get to the bottom of it. RAH seems to have quit or cut down on most of the behaviors. So, I need to get back to forgiveness. I wasnt sure if there was something I was missing to achieve it.
RAH and I spent the whole day together today. Ive lost count of how many comments about sex or my body he made. Annoying and a turn off. He just doesnt get it. Probably never will. UGH!
I didnt mean to insinuate that our counselor is "pressuring" me to forgive. He just asks weekly what I have done to work on it. He is a RA himself, and thats why we were referred to him. We have only been seeing him since July, I think.
RAH and I have been together over 18 yrs. Thats a lot of hurt.
Initially,I reread a book I have on forgiveness. I didnt get much out of it, so I made a list of RAH wrongdoings towards me and our sons, that I could remember. I prayed over it and asked for a healed heart.
Thats when I realized many of those things, he still did. A little differently and without alcohol, but he still did them. Manipulation, coercion, tantrums, uncontrolled anger, threats...
The counselor told RAH he needed to stop putting more stuff on my resentment pile or I would never get to the bottom of it. RAH seems to have quit or cut down on most of the behaviors. So, I need to get back to forgiveness. I wasnt sure if there was something I was missing to achieve it.
RAH and I spent the whole day together today. Ive lost count of how many comments about sex or my body he made. Annoying and a turn off. He just doesnt get it. Probably never will. UGH!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Keepin' my side of the litterbox clean
Posts: 2,136
Originally Posted by daisyjen 
RAH and I spent the whole day together today. Ive lost count of how many comments about sex or my body he made. Annoying and a turn off. He just doesnt get it. Probably never will. UGH!
He no longer bothers with me at all. I imagine it's a combination of the disease progression and my requesting he leave me alone for about a year before he got it through his head THAT I WANTED TO BE LEFT ALONE.
If your AH never "gets it" you may consider, in time, that living apart would be the best route to go. I've lived through stuff that other people tell me that cannot imagine living through.
But, hey, there IS a light at the end of my tunnel - and it ain't a train! Thank goodness!!!!
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