cassandra2

How do you know that an addict is lying not only to you but to themselves. If they really believe something then to them its truth.

I guess what I am asking is if the addict in our lives really believes that they are moving forward in their life (even though it may be in a million directions) how do we know that that is NOT the truth for them? How do we know that they really arent moving forward? Is is because they are so busy saying they are moving forward and so therefore they are in serious denial of their problem?

Is it because the road that their on only has 2 destinations (death or jail)? Is it because they are NOT living in reality and we are? I have read here where some addicts say that they think their thinking is completely logical when in the throughs of addiction. How do we know that it isnt logical?

I might be over thinking this and if so say so. But I guess what I really am wondering is this:

Xabf is getting apartment with his sister. Borrowed money from grandma to get this place. Gonna move all this stuff out and into the new place. Thinks this is what is best for him. Sister and him dont really see eye to eye on ALOT of issues. Everyone around them sees that and is making comments like "oh cant wait to see how this is gonna turn out". Xabf is getting a job and gonna work to support the kids and take care of himself. Wants to have regular visitation. And of course LASTLY when thats all done THEN I am gonna go get help!!!!!

In some ways it would make sense. It would make sense if you were clean but if you seriously have a drug addiction, which he does, then is all of that just quack quack????

cmc

I've never been much of a mind reader...although I used to claim to 'just know' what somebody thought or 'really meant by that' or know what would happen next. I was right sometimes too, which all the more reason to stay in denial about it. The truth is that I don't possess those special powers over people, places and things.

What I do now is make judgements based on the facts of what I see happening. It amounts to observing actions over time. I'm finding it's a very good rule of thumb for me to use in all aspects of life.

Live

this is kind of off topic and kind of not.
My husband just did the same thing. He and his sis don't get along, except when the are mad at me. LOL
Only difference is that my hubs in not an addict, he was in a car accident and has a head trauma, which has him thinking as screwy as if he were an addict and is in complete denial that there is anthing wrong with him.

I will be interested to follow this thread.

Well, I had him Baker-acted and he is hating me about that, so when he got out he called and told me he was leaving me and going to sis's.

Still, I know it is the accident trauma and we have talked on the phone several times because there are alot of practical matters...such as what am I supposed to do with your stuff LOL and etc.
I have actually found all his plans and such amusing!

This was ornery of me but I sent him an email about how I hoped he would cheer up soon since he was living in a great big house almost like a mansion, with the big 52 inch tv, sis doing the home cooking for him, all sorts of ice cream (his favorite treat), free computer and etc..blah, blah....and that it sounded to me like a vacation.

I am NOT advising this.
It is just that I all ready have my ducks in a row mostly...no matter what he does. So I can view it with detachment.

live

Neverwanted

I have learned they dont mean a damned thing they say when addicted. Not at the time and not later on.


Sorry - I am very depressed and struggling after some more revelations from the addict who I allowed destroy my life.

Live

Actions speak SO much louder than words. That's how you know.

OhBrother

My sister has been backsliding the last few months in some of the progress she made since she first started therapy and rehab from her perc/oxy addiction, and is about to start again with the counsellor on Monday.

Her bf and I have had long talks about her take on reality. Its baffling sometimes. She'll tell him (they live together) the most baldfaced lies about where she's been, if she went to work that day, how she lost her money, etc...and if you call her on them she'll defend the lies on and on and on. You practically have to show her video evidence of being somewhere she said she wasn't. It makes us wonder if she tells herself things and she makes herself believe them.
What makes it more complicated is that despite the relapsing the last few months, she still really has made SOME progress. There are times where she is quite honest about her failings. And there are a lot of things I can bluntly talk to her about now that she'd try to hide before. It makes it a lot harder to accuse her of lying if you have any doubts, because you don't want that to be the one of the times she is telling the truth.
I try to do what people here have recommended: believe what you see, not what they say. If she is lying deliberately or because her addiction is causing her delusions...I guess its all the same. What's really bizarre though is when she lies about minor things she doesn't even need to lie about. That makes me think there's a lot of constructing of reality going on...maybe some coping mechanism that helps them hide from what their life is really like.
God, can't wait to get her back in the therapy on Monday!

cece1960

I think the addicts do believe their plans are valid...but to us, reality sneaks in. And I do believe they want things to work out, and that they will magically hit that point of never using again.

To me much of it seems like overcompensating...like delusions of grandeur.

I used to equate it to listening to a child talk about what they were going to do, or be when they grow up.

I'm not making fun, in fact its sad to me. They're reality is really warped and understandably.

Did you ever notice there's no SMALL steps toward getting back on their feet?

I'm not sure I'll ever understand.

Live

I am humbled, you are of course right CeCe.

Thank you.

Abundance

I totally relate to this! It's as though their reality is so skewed! My guy drug tested ME today because he says he found a syringe in my van - in the trunk..... and says I've been acting funny! He actually is accusing me of doing opiates or coke! WOW!!!!!!!!! So I took a drug test! Negative......... except it was an inaccurate reading so he is sending it to the lab. I told him that THIS is exactly what I'm talking about when addiction makes the ones who love them have addict behavior........ but here is the kicker ...... we are NOT using!

So...... how twisted is THAT?! Does he really believe I'm using ...... OR is he just trying to be manipulative and prove a point about how it feels when the shoe is on the other foot!!!?!!!! And before he tested me he said calmly...... I don't know if this is such a good idea to do the test...... I think I would just prefer for you to come to me when you are ready to let me know you have a problem. I took the test...... because there is NO problem with drugs that I am having!!!!!!!! And what the heck is this syringe business?

It's all wrong....... SO wrong!

SO..... here is what I have come to......

I've noticed that I am not giving power to my EMPOWERING MOVEMENTS! I think it's great to process through it all though..... that is important...... so is to ALLOW myself time to see it for what it is ..... and to mourn....... but pick myself up and shake myself and give myself back the power to control only me...... and to as always - have gratitude for all the good that is around me!!

It's not so much that I "deserve" better....... but I do have so many things to be grateful for.... and if there are things that we are giving power to that are not so healthy and good or "grateful worthy"........ then why are we giving our power to it? Actually ..... the "why" part doesn't even matter...... just DON'T DO IT!

I had an absolutely SHITATY day today........ BUT.........I got my hair cut and I got bangs! Switching it up a bit!!!

HUGS to every single one of you dealing and coping and managing and healing!!!!!!!!

Peace and Love xoxoxoxo

BayAreaPhoenix

Cassandra

I have learned, with my AH, he does believe his reality at that moment. He wants it to be what he says it is. I used to say to him, when he rewrote history - Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. That made him absolutely crazy, and of course I had no idea how close I was to the truth and how seriously delusional he really was at the time. I thought he was as Cece described, just a grown up with arrested emotional development that never learned to tell the truth or something.

I have heard, from recovering A's, that they do mean what they say at the time (sometimes), and they do think at that moment they can follow-thru, etc. But, then, somehow - things get in the way.

He's talking big about getting a place, a job, supporting the kids, etc. Well, that's just hunky dory - let's see him do it - for more than a minute, if at all.

Actions, actions, actions - if he tells you the sky is green with purple polka dots would you believe him without looking up first?

Oh they can spin our heads - but soon, no more spinning!

Latte

I got questioned about my being clean the other day when I was singing into the toilet brush.

Hey, I was having a great day.

I watch what people do more than what they say. I got reminded of that this last summer when my Afather came to visit. He said he quit drinking (he has been since he was 19, he is 66 now) and I believed him. Looking back I knew better. I don't allow him to drink in my home. He stopped off at my sisters house (he lives in Mexico and he was visting the states) and got drunk there. I wasn't angry, but it did remind me to watch rather than listen.

Abundance

Normally...... I really could care less what people think about me........ but when there are LIES or exaggerations about me are being told to people we both know - but are from his side of the fence...... I really get a pining sensation to set the record straight! THAT drives me insane when that happens!

For example - he tells me that it's my fault he doesn't have any more friends!!!!! MY FAULT? How exactly is it my fault when those friends stood by their boundaries whether in fear of dealing with a drug user (sometimes dealer)..... and / or friends who said in the intervention........ get clean or I will not be your friend!!!!!! How is that MY fault?

His reality/perception is so different from mine in many cases. What he sees/hears at the same time that I do - is sometimes different. And philosophically speaking that is true in MANY cases........ however, with an addict it's just whacked!

Ann

I think we cannot expect a rational answer from someone incapable of being rational.

Like Cece, I think they believe they can do it this way, as complicated as this way may be, but until they stop using the insanity continues. How sad it is.

Hugs

winnie12

My AS is young and I think we all remember those things we said when we were young that never happened. I'll never do that - I'm going to do that. I do believe that my son has truly believed a lot of the things he said and therefore they were truth to him. He was going to clean up - never do drugs again. As time went on and he fell he started realizing that its harder then he believed (so his truth changes) - but he had to learn that on his own.

Its like this - all his life he wanted to be a Rock Star. To me that's a pipe dream but who am I to tell him that he cant have that - its not impossible just improbable. So even though I knew the chances were slim I never told him he couldnt. So when he said he was going to fly through some program he was in - who was I to tell him he couldnt. I never tell him its going to be easy and explain that its up to him. Yes you could fly through this program if you really set your mind to it and do the work.

When they are making steps and thinking about change I think we have to give supportive words - they may fall on this step but as long as they are moving forward and thinking about these things its good.

You wouldnt tell your toddler not to take a step because they were going to fall. You let them walk, fall, walk, fall until finally they are walking. Sure there may be the rare addict who does it the right way the first time but I think that most addicts have to take a few steps, fall, take a few steps, fall.

We learn more our mistakes then our successess. I for one will allow my son to make mistakes and put faith in the fact that my HP has control of his final destination.

beegee

I found that they tell you mostly what you want to hear and then when you step back and see Actions speak louder then words you know it is BS.
I sometimes wanted to test my daughter but after reading the posts here I never bought the kit.

Alaia

Exactly what I was going to say.

sknyfats

This is so sad. My A-ex-GF is now my AGF again...and I'm struggling with practically everything she says & trying to decide if I believe her or not since I caught her in some massive lies a few weeks back. Broken trust sucks. Broken trust with an addict you care about sucks 100 times worse. In my mind, you can't have a relationship of any sort with trust; otherwise, you've just got an aquaintance. <sigh> This place helps answer many questions - but also gives so many more I never thought of . . .

hello-kitty

If their lips are moving...

I don't trust people on drugs. I think it is a bad idea and it sabatoges my own growth. I need to focus on me and taking care of my family. If I have to spend time determining when a person is lying to me and when a person is telling the truth, then that is not a person I want in my life.

Dishonesty is NOT a value I hold dear, therefore, I will not surround myself with people who have been known to lie to me.

NeedingHelp7

Cassandra, I did this many times over.... you will drive yourself crazy trying to sort through everything he says, whats the truth? whats a lie? Don't do this if you want to keep your sanity.

yes....I feel the same way.

:chatter.......... honestly yes.

Live

Thanks to each and every person who responded to this thread and to Cassandra for starting it.

I really needed to read this today and it has been extremely helpful to me.

I have been doing that, keeping score on the lies from someone I love.

I realized what's the cut off point...12? 30? 100? 15,000?.

I am being lied to and I know that.

Thanks again!!