Confused - am I out of line??
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Confused - am I out of line??
Newbie here. Middle aged widow.
I have a close friend (male middle aged batchelor) who is like family to me and my (grown) kids. He is very soft hearted and, I think, a bit niave in some ways. He is very sociable and has a wide variety of acquaintances and friends. He's been an acquaintance for years but I've just begun a perhaps romantic relationship with him.
Recently, I was over at his place when he received a call from a friend (lets call her susie) that upset him greatly. Off the phone, he says that this woman has cut her wrist, wants him to come over. (I've never met her or her husband - who, it turns out, is out of town and not available.)
My instant response is anger at what I immediately sense is a huge, unhealthy, manipulative play.
I suggest that perhaps he should call an ambulance as this kind of thing needs a professional response and who knows what else she may have done.
To make a long story short, we get there, she is drunk, belligerent, controlling, angry that an ambulance has been called and has a superficial cut on her wrist (that still worries my completely non-medical friend) and is PO'd at me because I won't come in and sit down. EMT's and police arrive and she goes to the hospital. (While I was downstairs letting them in, she actually asked my friend what he would have done if she hadn't actually cut her wrist? He said that he would have kicked her a** around the block.)
After all this, I was still PO'd at her because I could see that my friend was still horribly worried. He, in turn, was ticked off at me for being callous when he thought that I was a 'good person.' I say that people like susie create nothing but trouble for others - notice that we are arguing about her for starters!! (He says, perhaps so, as it turns out she (but not her husband) has been banned from the neighbourhood pub where he met them.) But he says that she has a history of depression and he thinks that this happened because she got depressed. I maintain that not all depressed people are manipulative drunks and he thinks that calling her a 'drunk' is harsh. I say that anyone who gets drunk by themselves and pulls this kind of nonsense qualifies as a potential 'drunk' in my view.
I mentioned this in passing to another acquaintance who said semi-jokingly that if my friend wants to befriend susie, that he should check out alanon - which I googled and found this forum.
Am I out of line? If a romance with this fellow comes with these kinds of friends I'm thinking that this would be more baggage than I could handle.
Maybe because he didn't ever raise kids, he didn't ever have to completely cut such people out of his life???? Or have I become just a callous snob?
If I hadn't had the beginnings of romantic feelings for this fellow who I know is a good person and whom I've known for years, I would just shrug it off. As it is, though I'm not angry any more, I am still in a bit of a stew over this incident.
I have a close friend (male middle aged batchelor) who is like family to me and my (grown) kids. He is very soft hearted and, I think, a bit niave in some ways. He is very sociable and has a wide variety of acquaintances and friends. He's been an acquaintance for years but I've just begun a perhaps romantic relationship with him.
Recently, I was over at his place when he received a call from a friend (lets call her susie) that upset him greatly. Off the phone, he says that this woman has cut her wrist, wants him to come over. (I've never met her or her husband - who, it turns out, is out of town and not available.)
My instant response is anger at what I immediately sense is a huge, unhealthy, manipulative play.
I suggest that perhaps he should call an ambulance as this kind of thing needs a professional response and who knows what else she may have done.
To make a long story short, we get there, she is drunk, belligerent, controlling, angry that an ambulance has been called and has a superficial cut on her wrist (that still worries my completely non-medical friend) and is PO'd at me because I won't come in and sit down. EMT's and police arrive and she goes to the hospital. (While I was downstairs letting them in, she actually asked my friend what he would have done if she hadn't actually cut her wrist? He said that he would have kicked her a** around the block.)
After all this, I was still PO'd at her because I could see that my friend was still horribly worried. He, in turn, was ticked off at me for being callous when he thought that I was a 'good person.' I say that people like susie create nothing but trouble for others - notice that we are arguing about her for starters!! (He says, perhaps so, as it turns out she (but not her husband) has been banned from the neighbourhood pub where he met them.) But he says that she has a history of depression and he thinks that this happened because she got depressed. I maintain that not all depressed people are manipulative drunks and he thinks that calling her a 'drunk' is harsh. I say that anyone who gets drunk by themselves and pulls this kind of nonsense qualifies as a potential 'drunk' in my view.
I mentioned this in passing to another acquaintance who said semi-jokingly that if my friend wants to befriend susie, that he should check out alanon - which I googled and found this forum.
Am I out of line? If a romance with this fellow comes with these kinds of friends I'm thinking that this would be more baggage than I could handle.
Maybe because he didn't ever raise kids, he didn't ever have to completely cut such people out of his life???? Or have I become just a callous snob?
If I hadn't had the beginnings of romantic feelings for this fellow who I know is a good person and whom I've known for years, I would just shrug it off. As it is, though I'm not angry any more, I am still in a bit of a stew over this incident.
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What is it that you are pissed off about?
That he responded to the call for help? Or that he didn't see things the way you did?
I'd give him a bit of a break - you had a very clear idea of how you thought the situation must be handled and how this woman's behavior should be assessed. That's your right. But he seemed to have a slightly different take and reaction to the situation.
Can you allow for a world where there is no "right" answer? I mean, he has a right to respond however he chooses to situations. And you can choose your response - but you can't choose his response for him! Same with AlAnon - you can mention it to him if he has lots of alcoholic friends and he seems to be struggling with co-dependent issues - but then you have to just step off - it's up to him if he decides he is ready or needs it or wants to go or whatever...
It was hard feeling for me to give up in dealing with alcoholics - to accept that I wasn't always "right!" If I'm keeping my side of the street clean and working on MY problems all is well. If I start trying to tell others how to manage their lives and getting myself upset when they "don't listen" I am asking for trouble.
Another good thing I learned was how to accept people for who they are, just as they are TODAY, no wishing they were different, or remembering them as diffeent, or worse "knowing" they could be different.
I don't know if this helps - good luck!
Peace,
B.
That he responded to the call for help? Or that he didn't see things the way you did?
I'd give him a bit of a break - you had a very clear idea of how you thought the situation must be handled and how this woman's behavior should be assessed. That's your right. But he seemed to have a slightly different take and reaction to the situation.
Can you allow for a world where there is no "right" answer? I mean, he has a right to respond however he chooses to situations. And you can choose your response - but you can't choose his response for him! Same with AlAnon - you can mention it to him if he has lots of alcoholic friends and he seems to be struggling with co-dependent issues - but then you have to just step off - it's up to him if he decides he is ready or needs it or wants to go or whatever...
It was hard feeling for me to give up in dealing with alcoholics - to accept that I wasn't always "right!" If I'm keeping my side of the street clean and working on MY problems all is well. If I start trying to tell others how to manage their lives and getting myself upset when they "don't listen" I am asking for trouble.
Another good thing I learned was how to accept people for who they are, just as they are TODAY, no wishing they were different, or remembering them as diffeent, or worse "knowing" they could be different.
I don't know if this helps - good luck!
Peace,
B.
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Originally Posted by canuckEH 
If a romance with this fellow comes with these kinds of friends I'm thinking that this would be more baggage than I could handle.
I wouldn't worry about the friends, when it's he who is being considered as a possible romantic relationship. What does it say that he becomes involved in this type of drama?
FWIW I think your take on the entire episode was spot on.
A question I'd ask myself is, when Al Anon was suggested for him, why did I go and do the googling?
Keep posting!
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Originally Posted by Bernadette
What is it that you are pissed off about?
that he didn't see things the way you did?
Can you allow for a world where there is no "right" answer?
he has a right to respond however he chooses to situations
you can't choose his response for him!
It was hard feeling for me to give up in dealing with alcoholics - to accept that I wasn't always "right!" If I'm keeping my side of the street clean and working on MY problems all is well. If I start trying to tell others how to manage their lives and getting myself upset when they "don't listen" I am asking for trouble.
Another good thing I learned was how to accept people for who they are, just as they are TODAY, no wishing they were different, or remembering them as diffeent, or worse "knowing" they could be different.
a quote I found helpful was:
And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment. BB 1st edition
it goes on to say how I've proven I don't know what's "best for me" and if I don't know what's best for me, I don't know what's best for you or for anyone, if I criticize you I am saying I know better then God, I am criticizing God's handiwork, so it's best if I don't "give advice".
I find that helpful when I'm getting all up in someone else's bi'ness.
plus i just end up unhappy, and they get mad at me.
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Thanks so much for the responses!!
He had told her he had company (me) and she had asked him to bring me along so I was angry at being manipulated by someone I had never met - not to mention that this seemed really wierd to me.
I'm angry that this situation involving someone I'd never met has left me feeling used on the one hand or potentially like a heartless snob on the other hand. Or that maybe my friend sees me as a heartless snob.
My way of dealing with an alcoholic is to avoid them. I really cannot see this changing - and this situation confirms this. This whole thing was upsetting and exhausting. I'm afraid that trying to help such a person would suck me into a whirlpool.
I cannot imagine suggesting Al Anon to him - it seems like complete overkill over one incident and feels inappropriate.
He says that this woman, while more than an acquaintance, is not a close friend.
But I found this whole thing surprisingly upsetting and when I found this forum, I wanted to see what you would have to say about the whole thing.
See above - you can bet that I wouldn't go over to her apt a second time.
Thanks so much for the comments.
I have typed and re-typed various responses and as I do, I see the whole thing much more clearly. I guess that must be why I posted here.
This whole situation is confounding because I have so many conflicting emotions about it.
I want a romantic relationship. I thought my friend might become a romantic friend. Now - maybe or maybe not. This is a let down.
I thought I was a "good person" but this situation makes me think I'm a heartless snob. Perhaps I'm a little of each. Maybe if I'd met suzie when she was being charming and entertaining, I'd have had more sympathy. I'm a bit shocked at how revolting I found her. The whole incident creeped me out. My reaction is to stay as far away as possible.
My social life has revolved around family for years. The last time I remember dealing with anything like this was back in my single twenties. I think suzie is my age, give or take. I don't think she has children. Perhaps single or childless folks can maintain the partying twenties stuff for longer though I don't know why anyone would want to.
My batchelor friend seems to have a few mutually exclusive groups of friends. I guess I do too but to a much lesser extent. Perhaps he can do this because he is single. He says that he wants a more family oriented lifestyle than he has had and when he is with me, he realizes what he has been missing.
I guess it will boil down to whether he is OK with my not adopting these friends and how much time and energy he spends on them. Certainly, having been a widow for quite a few years, I have friends who might not convert to 'couple friends' and I'd like to keep up with them.
I guess time will tell.
Originally Posted by Bernadette
What is it that you are pissed off about?
That he responded to the call for help? Or that he didn't see things the way you did?...
That he responded to the call for help? Or that he didn't see things the way you did?...
I'm angry that this situation involving someone I'd never met has left me feeling used on the one hand or potentially like a heartless snob on the other hand. Or that maybe my friend sees me as a heartless snob.
Originally Posted by Bernadette
It was hard feeling for me to give up in dealing with alcoholics - to accept that I wasn't always "right!" If I'm keeping my side of the street clean and working on MY problems all is well. If I start trying to tell others how to manage their lives and getting myself upset when they "don't listen" I am asking for trouble...
Originally Posted by denny57
A question I'd ask myself is, when Al Anon was suggested for him, why did I go and do the googling?
He says that this woman, while more than an acquaintance, is not a close friend.
But I found this whole thing surprisingly upsetting and when I found this forum, I wanted to see what you would have to say about the whole thing.
Originally Posted by londonvanpelt
If it were me, I would have went home instead of going over this woman's house. As far as this man goes, I would just let him be and take care of myself.
Thanks so much for the comments.
I have typed and re-typed various responses and as I do, I see the whole thing much more clearly. I guess that must be why I posted here.
This whole situation is confounding because I have so many conflicting emotions about it.
I want a romantic relationship. I thought my friend might become a romantic friend. Now - maybe or maybe not. This is a let down.
I thought I was a "good person" but this situation makes me think I'm a heartless snob. Perhaps I'm a little of each. Maybe if I'd met suzie when she was being charming and entertaining, I'd have had more sympathy. I'm a bit shocked at how revolting I found her. The whole incident creeped me out. My reaction is to stay as far away as possible.
My social life has revolved around family for years. The last time I remember dealing with anything like this was back in my single twenties. I think suzie is my age, give or take. I don't think she has children. Perhaps single or childless folks can maintain the partying twenties stuff for longer though I don't know why anyone would want to.
My batchelor friend seems to have a few mutually exclusive groups of friends. I guess I do too but to a much lesser extent. Perhaps he can do this because he is single. He says that he wants a more family oriented lifestyle than he has had and when he is with me, he realizes what he has been missing.
I guess it will boil down to whether he is OK with my not adopting these friends and how much time and energy he spends on them. Certainly, having been a widow for quite a few years, I have friends who might not convert to 'couple friends' and I'd like to keep up with them.
I guess time will tell.
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I am perceived as heartless by many people who have never had to go through recovery, and/or have never had to deal with the addictions of a loved one. Detachment and refusal to engage in alcoholic psycho-tricks is often perceived as cruel by the uninitiated.
My choices, when they act in a way that implies they haven't learned the lessons I (painfully) have, are two:
1) I can get mad and write them off as ignorant, clueless, and/or codependent
or
2) I can try to tell them WHY I react the way I do, and show them that indeed I am not heartless, but have actual case studies in real life (mine and others') that show why it is not wise to involve one's self in alcoholic chaos.
Over time, I've seen my responses move away from #1 toward #2. It's a very difficult situation you've described. Only you know whether he might be open to a gentle conversation explaining why you choose to avoid the chaos. It may even be an opportunity for him to see a strong and admirable side of you, and for you two to grow just a smidgen together. Who knows?
Good luck,
GL
My choices, when they act in a way that implies they haven't learned the lessons I (painfully) have, are two:
1) I can get mad and write them off as ignorant, clueless, and/or codependent
or
2) I can try to tell them WHY I react the way I do, and show them that indeed I am not heartless, but have actual case studies in real life (mine and others') that show why it is not wise to involve one's self in alcoholic chaos.
Over time, I've seen my responses move away from #1 toward #2. It's a very difficult situation you've described. Only you know whether he might be open to a gentle conversation explaining why you choose to avoid the chaos. It may even be an opportunity for him to see a strong and admirable side of you, and for you two to grow just a smidgen together. Who knows?
Good luck,
GL
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 80
Originally Posted by canuckEH
Newbie here. Middle aged widow.
I have a close friend (male middle aged batchelor) who is like family to me and my (grown) kids. He is very soft hearted and, I think, a bit niave in some ways. He is very sociable and has a wide variety of acquaintances and friends. He's been an acquaintance for years but I've just begun a perhaps romantic relationship with him.
Recently, I was over at his place when he received a call from a friend (lets call her susie) that upset him greatly. Off the phone, he says that this woman has cut her wrist, wants him to come over. (I've never met her or her husband - who, it turns out, is out of town and not available.)
My instant response is anger at what I immediately sense is a huge, unhealthy, manipulative play.
I suggest that perhaps he should call an ambulance as this kind of thing needs a professional response and who knows what else she may have done.
To make a long story short, we get there, she is drunk, belligerent, controlling, angry that an ambulance has been called and has a superficial cut on her wrist (that still worries my completely non-medical friend) and is PO'd at me because I won't come in and sit down. EMT's and police arrive and she goes to the hospital. (While I was downstairs letting them in, she actually asked my friend what he would have done if she hadn't actually cut her wrist? He said that he would have kicked her a** around the block.)
After all this, I was still PO'd at her because I could see that my friend was still horribly worried. He, in turn, was ticked off at me for being callous when he thought that I was a 'good person.' I say that people like susie create nothing but trouble for others - notice that we are arguing about her for starters!! (He says, perhaps so, as it turns out she (but not her husband) has been banned from the neighbourhood pub where he met them.) But he says that she has a history of depression and he thinks that this happened because she got depressed. I maintain that not all depressed people are manipulative drunks and he thinks that calling her a 'drunk' is harsh. I say that anyone who gets drunk by themselves and pulls this kind of nonsense qualifies as a potential 'drunk' in my view.
I mentioned this in passing to another acquaintance who said semi-jokingly that if my friend wants to befriend susie, that he should check out alanon - which I googled and found this forum.
Am I out of line? If a romance with this fellow comes with these kinds of friends I'm thinking that this would be more baggage than I could handle.
Maybe because he didn't ever raise kids, he didn't ever have to completely cut such people out of his life???? Or have I become just a callous snob?
If I hadn't had the beginnings of romantic feelings for this fellow who I know is a good person and whom I've known for years, I would just shrug it off. As it is, though I'm not angry any more, I am still in a bit of a stew over this incident.
I have a close friend (male middle aged batchelor) who is like family to me and my (grown) kids. He is very soft hearted and, I think, a bit niave in some ways. He is very sociable and has a wide variety of acquaintances and friends. He's been an acquaintance for years but I've just begun a perhaps romantic relationship with him.
Recently, I was over at his place when he received a call from a friend (lets call her susie) that upset him greatly. Off the phone, he says that this woman has cut her wrist, wants him to come over. (I've never met her or her husband - who, it turns out, is out of town and not available.)
My instant response is anger at what I immediately sense is a huge, unhealthy, manipulative play.
I suggest that perhaps he should call an ambulance as this kind of thing needs a professional response and who knows what else she may have done.
To make a long story short, we get there, she is drunk, belligerent, controlling, angry that an ambulance has been called and has a superficial cut on her wrist (that still worries my completely non-medical friend) and is PO'd at me because I won't come in and sit down. EMT's and police arrive and she goes to the hospital. (While I was downstairs letting them in, she actually asked my friend what he would have done if she hadn't actually cut her wrist? He said that he would have kicked her a** around the block.)
After all this, I was still PO'd at her because I could see that my friend was still horribly worried. He, in turn, was ticked off at me for being callous when he thought that I was a 'good person.' I say that people like susie create nothing but trouble for others - notice that we are arguing about her for starters!! (He says, perhaps so, as it turns out she (but not her husband) has been banned from the neighbourhood pub where he met them.) But he says that she has a history of depression and he thinks that this happened because she got depressed. I maintain that not all depressed people are manipulative drunks and he thinks that calling her a 'drunk' is harsh. I say that anyone who gets drunk by themselves and pulls this kind of nonsense qualifies as a potential 'drunk' in my view.
I mentioned this in passing to another acquaintance who said semi-jokingly that if my friend wants to befriend susie, that he should check out alanon - which I googled and found this forum.
Am I out of line? If a romance with this fellow comes with these kinds of friends I'm thinking that this would be more baggage than I could handle.
Maybe because he didn't ever raise kids, he didn't ever have to completely cut such people out of his life???? Or have I become just a callous snob?
If I hadn't had the beginnings of romantic feelings for this fellow who I know is a good person and whom I've known for years, I would just shrug it off. As it is, though I'm not angry any more, I am still in a bit of a stew over this incident.
So you know this guy pretty well? Is he often letting himself be dragged into things like this? Is it just the one woman that does it?
I used to know this woman (ex-girlfriend) that started getting into trouble with drugs (after we broke up), and I told her family and let them take care of it. I wanted to help, but once she would relapse, I decided that "I was done" with her. I won't put up with people who refuse to clean themselves up.
So that's my perspective; and I'd certainly be annoyed if someone I cared about kept getting mixed up with someone who would relapse in behavior like that. Is that what you're going through?
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No you are not uncaring or a snob, just someone who recognised a situation for what it was and handled it. Your friend saw it differently possibly because he was in a friendly relationship with her, and it worried him.
Only you can decide if you can have your own relationship with him, and that means looking at the problems you may be involved in because of his friendships with others.
God bless
Only you can decide if you can have your own relationship with him, and that means looking at the problems you may be involved in because of his friendships with others.
God bless
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Originally Posted by GiveLove
...Detachment and refusal to engage in alcoholic psycho-tricks is often perceived as cruel by the uninitiated.
...
Only you know whether he might be open to a gentle conversation explaining why you choose to avoid the chaos. It may even be an opportunity for him to see a strong and admirable side of you, and for you two to grow just a ...
...
Only you know whether he might be open to a gentle conversation explaining why you choose to avoid the chaos. It may even be an opportunity for him to see a strong and admirable side of you, and for you two to grow just a ...
If I had an explanation I would offer it but I don't. But it's good to know that there is an explanation, even though I don't know it.
I think I will wait a bit and then suggest that perhaps he should suggest to her that she get help dealing with what is clearly a problem with alcohol.
Originally Posted by anvilhead
... as i read thru this thread a couple times, i kept seeing lots and lots of red flags...
I think that's what put me in such a stew. I see red flags even though I don't want to see red flags.
Thank you all so much for so many helpful comments!!!!!
I am feeling much more settled about this now! Really!! I just posted here to see what your take would be on this. I didn't expect that the result would be so helpful to me personally!!
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Middle aged dating is still dating and seems to hold some of the same pitfals as college dating does. But in college, we all had other single girlfriends to lean on and to point out the obvious that we were blind to. And, I had more energy back then 
to deal with all these complications!
How humbling to discover that this dating game is still just as perplexing as ever!!
to deal with all these complications!How humbling to discover that this dating game is still just as perplexing as ever!!
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
Am I out of line? If a romance with this fellow comes with these kinds of friends I'm thinking that this would be more baggage than I could handle.
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
My choices, when they act in a way that implies they haven't learned the lessons I (painfully) have, are two:
1) I can get mad and write them off as ignorant, clueless, and/or codependent
or
2) I can try to tell them WHY I react the way I do, and show them that indeed I am not heartless, but have actual case studies in real life (mine and others') that show why it is not wise to involve one's self in alcoholic chaos.
1) I can get mad and write them off as ignorant, clueless, and/or codependent
or
2) I can try to tell them WHY I react the way I do, and show them that indeed I am not heartless, but have actual case studies in real life (mine and others') that show why it is not wise to involve one's self in alcoholic chaos.
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Someplace USA
Posts: 415
Remember just because your middle aged and are dating middle aged men doesn't always mean they are all grown up especially guys who never have had families. My husband is a good deal older then me. I thought I was getting the perfect mature older guy. Well now he's middle aged and my 17 year old son is more mature!
Watch for those red flags! Some of the guys who turn out the worst in the end where almost too good to be true in the beginning. That great guy that you really wanted to get to know.
Hugs.
Watch for those red flags! Some of the guys who turn out the worst in the end where almost too good to be true in the beginning. That great guy that you really wanted to get to know.
Hugs.
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Seconding denny57 - I'd say your perspective was spot on. But I also agree with what other have said about the "uninitiated". People who haven't been through substance-abuse-attention-seeking behavior aren't necessarily equipped to recognize it. So unfortunately, while I can agree with my ACoA goggles on, it sounds like your prospective partner won't be able to.
I'd agree that if this is what his friends are like, the stress isn't worth it, but it sounds like you've been dating for a while and this is the first time this has come up. What have his other friends been like? Is this woman more of an outlier, or does she seem to be the norm?
Either way, if I were in your shoes, I'd (A) wait until things have calmed down to try and discuss what happened, or (B) create a boundary (e.g. I don't want to be involved next time susie has a crisis). He'll either understand - fully, partially, or not at all. Then you'll be able to assess better whether this will really be a problem for you. I totally 100% agree that if you don't want to be dealing with this kind of drama, then you have the right not to - whether it makes sense to him or not. I also have the same kneejerk "heartless" reaction when affronted with similar people. Don't worry - it's not you.
I'd agree that if this is what his friends are like, the stress isn't worth it, but it sounds like you've been dating for a while and this is the first time this has come up. What have his other friends been like? Is this woman more of an outlier, or does she seem to be the norm?
Either way, if I were in your shoes, I'd (A) wait until things have calmed down to try and discuss what happened, or (B) create a boundary (e.g. I don't want to be involved next time susie has a crisis). He'll either understand - fully, partially, or not at all. Then you'll be able to assess better whether this will really be a problem for you. I totally 100% agree that if you don't want to be dealing with this kind of drama, then you have the right not to - whether it makes sense to him or not. I also have the same kneejerk "heartless" reaction when affronted with similar people. Don't worry - it's not you.
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Originally Posted by FormerDoormat
I don't have to explain my responses to anyone. When people make me feel cold-hearted or bad about myself for protecting myself and my life from the drama and chaos alcoholics can bring to it, it's time to make new friends.
And if explaining myself happens to make one less enabler in the world, then so much the better.
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Originally Posted by GiveLove
I don't HAVE to do anything either, FD. I CHOOSE to educate (receptive) people on what they can expect if they continue to get sucked into this kind of alcoholic chaos, by telling my own stories....
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