Social phobic brother in law in crisis. Need advice.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 10
Social phobic brother in law in crisis. Need advice.
Hello,
I also posted on the anxiety board as well. I need help!
I've just spent the last several days calling one crisis line to the next and getting the same answer, there is nothing I can do unless my brother is ready to get "clean" or is at death's door.
He's been living with his dad and his wife on and off for the last twenty years. Both are super-enablers. The longest he could stay clean was for maybe 6 weeks. Then he tried to kill himself and I told everyone (I'm new to the family) that he had to go to rehab, and no one should let him stay with them anymore. He had hit bottom, or so we thought. He went in for 90 days to a co-occuring disorders place. He was ready to go, we didn't need to say "or else".
He'd been diagnosed with panic disorder years before. He got out, spent some time at a sober living facility, started rebuilding his life. We helped him find an apartment to stay in. Helped him pay for stuff while he went to meetings. For a year things seemed very good (Such a long stretch compared to six weeks!).
A few weeks ago he seemed drunk. We couldn't find alcohol, but he was lethargic, slurry. He said he was switching meds. He has problems going on Paxil so it seemed plausible. But two weeks went by and he was still behaving strangely, and he sstarted sucking down the caffeine. And he had to get a hamster, then a guinea pig, then he asked if he could have a dog, but he had to have it RIGHT THEN. Then he started buying all of this non-important cheap stuff.
I just learned 5 days ago that he found several new psychiatrists and got them to proscribe him Xanax and Valium. He got 30 .5 mg Xanax, 51 2 mg Xanax, and 60 10mg Valium in the space of 18 days. He said he'd been clean for 4 days, but then I learned he's gotten 21 of the 2mg xanax 4 days before. So the question is did he use up the rest before he desperately got the xanax 4 days before, and at this point (now 6 days since he got the 21 2mg xanax) is he out? I think he's probably taking 4 or 5 a day. Is that a lot?
His drug of choice was alcohol. I didn't know he used benzos, didn't even know what they were until a few days ago. The doctors scared the living hell out of me, and I took him straight to a crisis center and they sent me away. Then I took him to an ER, and they said he wasn't in critical danger. He refuses to go to detox. We staged an "intervention" but weren't prepared for him to refuse to get clean. I guess I thought it was going to be as simple as last time. Yeah, I know.
From spending the last year with him, I think his panic disorder is mis diagnoised. I think he has social phobia (I described the symptoms of social phobia to his sister and she confirmed that their whole family was just like that... they all have problems to some degree or the other). Not a lot of difference in the drugs they prescribe, but we wouldn't have put him in so many social situations over the past year.
He has this nicotine spray, which you are supposed to do a max of 20 doses a day (10mg of nicotine per dose). I think he's doing about 100 doses a day. He goes from being lethargic, speech slurred, stumbling, red eyed, to completely together, and a little manic. He's started being belligerent. Confused. Gets lost easily. Can't remember things from 5 seconds to the next. He was looking into snorting Xanax. Looking into getting Adderall? (Sp)? He drinks 6 to 10 energy drinks and 5 cups of coffee.
I don't know what all this means. I don't know if this is the tip of the iceberg and there's a whole host of other things out there I don't know of.
We know we have to draw a line in the sand, but the rapidity and intensity of how thigns turn around has left us at a loss. I've called psychologists and psychiatrists and none want to touch us. The doctors tell us to go back to these bozos who gave him Xanax and Valium and coordinate with them to taper him down, but
1) Those psychiatrists are pushers
2) I have a three year old, and I don't think my brother wants to detox, and I can't manage controlling his meds every day while he continues to try to play me.
For now we are at an impasse. He's just taking it second by second. He says he's detoxed himself from years of alcohol abuse and detoxed by himself for benzos as well, and he knows what he's in for and can take it. He says 18 (or 22) days of benzos at these levels are nothing, and he's on two different anti-seizure medications: Neurotin and Remron I think he said, so he'll be okay. I know he's on Paxil too.
He revealed to me that he'd been using benzos since he was 25. I assume he's been off of them for a year, but I know the long term previous use might change the equation.
We told him his options were to go to detox then to sober living. But I can't force him to go to detox and he says he is detoxing himself. He can't be here with my and my child, so for now he is alone. I find this terrifying.
I told him to call 911 and gave him the crisis hotline as well for help. I've tried cutting off all of his suppliers, but if he gets clear headed enough I'm sure he can find another way to get this stuff. He's broke right now, but he has his insurance card because I wanted him to have it if the paramedics were called. But that insurance card opens a lot of doors for him.
I worry that he can't do sober living because he's terrified of people.
I just don't know what to do really. We can't pay for him to be alone and addicted... but we can't make him get clean either. Right now we are living second to second as well. Trying to come up with a plan.
And I really don't know what he's addicted to, and if he really has a panic disorder, or if all of this wild stuff he's doing to himself is just whacking him out.
Do you recognize what he's doing? Can you tell me what's going on?
Sorry for such a long post.
I also posted on the anxiety board as well. I need help!
I've just spent the last several days calling one crisis line to the next and getting the same answer, there is nothing I can do unless my brother is ready to get "clean" or is at death's door.
He's been living with his dad and his wife on and off for the last twenty years. Both are super-enablers. The longest he could stay clean was for maybe 6 weeks. Then he tried to kill himself and I told everyone (I'm new to the family) that he had to go to rehab, and no one should let him stay with them anymore. He had hit bottom, or so we thought. He went in for 90 days to a co-occuring disorders place. He was ready to go, we didn't need to say "or else".
He'd been diagnosed with panic disorder years before. He got out, spent some time at a sober living facility, started rebuilding his life. We helped him find an apartment to stay in. Helped him pay for stuff while he went to meetings. For a year things seemed very good (Such a long stretch compared to six weeks!).
A few weeks ago he seemed drunk. We couldn't find alcohol, but he was lethargic, slurry. He said he was switching meds. He has problems going on Paxil so it seemed plausible. But two weeks went by and he was still behaving strangely, and he sstarted sucking down the caffeine. And he had to get a hamster, then a guinea pig, then he asked if he could have a dog, but he had to have it RIGHT THEN. Then he started buying all of this non-important cheap stuff.
I just learned 5 days ago that he found several new psychiatrists and got them to proscribe him Xanax and Valium. He got 30 .5 mg Xanax, 51 2 mg Xanax, and 60 10mg Valium in the space of 18 days. He said he'd been clean for 4 days, but then I learned he's gotten 21 of the 2mg xanax 4 days before. So the question is did he use up the rest before he desperately got the xanax 4 days before, and at this point (now 6 days since he got the 21 2mg xanax) is he out? I think he's probably taking 4 or 5 a day. Is that a lot?
His drug of choice was alcohol. I didn't know he used benzos, didn't even know what they were until a few days ago. The doctors scared the living hell out of me, and I took him straight to a crisis center and they sent me away. Then I took him to an ER, and they said he wasn't in critical danger. He refuses to go to detox. We staged an "intervention" but weren't prepared for him to refuse to get clean. I guess I thought it was going to be as simple as last time. Yeah, I know.
From spending the last year with him, I think his panic disorder is mis diagnoised. I think he has social phobia (I described the symptoms of social phobia to his sister and she confirmed that their whole family was just like that... they all have problems to some degree or the other). Not a lot of difference in the drugs they prescribe, but we wouldn't have put him in so many social situations over the past year.
He has this nicotine spray, which you are supposed to do a max of 20 doses a day (10mg of nicotine per dose). I think he's doing about 100 doses a day. He goes from being lethargic, speech slurred, stumbling, red eyed, to completely together, and a little manic. He's started being belligerent. Confused. Gets lost easily. Can't remember things from 5 seconds to the next. He was looking into snorting Xanax. Looking into getting Adderall? (Sp)? He drinks 6 to 10 energy drinks and 5 cups of coffee.
I don't know what all this means. I don't know if this is the tip of the iceberg and there's a whole host of other things out there I don't know of.
We know we have to draw a line in the sand, but the rapidity and intensity of how thigns turn around has left us at a loss. I've called psychologists and psychiatrists and none want to touch us. The doctors tell us to go back to these bozos who gave him Xanax and Valium and coordinate with them to taper him down, but
1) Those psychiatrists are pushers
2) I have a three year old, and I don't think my brother wants to detox, and I can't manage controlling his meds every day while he continues to try to play me.
For now we are at an impasse. He's just taking it second by second. He says he's detoxed himself from years of alcohol abuse and detoxed by himself for benzos as well, and he knows what he's in for and can take it. He says 18 (or 22) days of benzos at these levels are nothing, and he's on two different anti-seizure medications: Neurotin and Remron I think he said, so he'll be okay. I know he's on Paxil too.
He revealed to me that he'd been using benzos since he was 25. I assume he's been off of them for a year, but I know the long term previous use might change the equation.
We told him his options were to go to detox then to sober living. But I can't force him to go to detox and he says he is detoxing himself. He can't be here with my and my child, so for now he is alone. I find this terrifying.
I told him to call 911 and gave him the crisis hotline as well for help. I've tried cutting off all of his suppliers, but if he gets clear headed enough I'm sure he can find another way to get this stuff. He's broke right now, but he has his insurance card because I wanted him to have it if the paramedics were called. But that insurance card opens a lot of doors for him.
I worry that he can't do sober living because he's terrified of people.
I just don't know what to do really. We can't pay for him to be alone and addicted... but we can't make him get clean either. Right now we are living second to second as well. Trying to come up with a plan.
And I really don't know what he's addicted to, and if he really has a panic disorder, or if all of this wild stuff he's doing to himself is just whacking him out.
Do you recognize what he's doing? Can you tell me what's going on?
Sorry for such a long post.
Rest peacefully Sonny Boy
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Florida, Tennessee
Posts: 840
((starreyz))
Welcome to SR. I'm sorry for the circumstances that brought you here, but I'm glad you found us.
You are looking for answers for him. I know that it's not what you want to hear, but there is no answers for him. What's going on with him physically and mentally and emotionally is complicated even for the professionals, and the only way any of it will get worked out is if he decides he's had enough and gets the help he needs himself. As long as other people hold him up and makes his life easier, the longer it takes for him to hit a bottom bad enough that he takes control of his own life.
There are some answers for you. Learn about co-dependancy. Read, read and then read some more. You will see yourself and your brother, over and over again. But the more you learn, the more you arm yourself with tools to deal with this nightmare. Find meetings in your area just for friends and family, those meetings bring you face to face with other people just like you, people who understand and have been down the same path you are traveling.
Read about our 12 step study, we need to do the same recovery that we are asking them to do, and it's not easy. You think at first, why do I need to do this, he's the one with the problem. Our actions, our "help" can actually do more damage and help prolong their outcome.
My prayers are for both of you, I lost a brother to this disease, I wish I had known then what I know now about my part in it.
B
Welcome to SR. I'm sorry for the circumstances that brought you here, but I'm glad you found us.
You are looking for answers for him. I know that it's not what you want to hear, but there is no answers for him. What's going on with him physically and mentally and emotionally is complicated even for the professionals, and the only way any of it will get worked out is if he decides he's had enough and gets the help he needs himself. As long as other people hold him up and makes his life easier, the longer it takes for him to hit a bottom bad enough that he takes control of his own life.
There are some answers for you. Learn about co-dependancy. Read, read and then read some more. You will see yourself and your brother, over and over again. But the more you learn, the more you arm yourself with tools to deal with this nightmare. Find meetings in your area just for friends and family, those meetings bring you face to face with other people just like you, people who understand and have been down the same path you are traveling.
Read about our 12 step study, we need to do the same recovery that we are asking them to do, and it's not easy. You think at first, why do I need to do this, he's the one with the problem. Our actions, our "help" can actually do more damage and help prolong their outcome.
My prayers are for both of you, I lost a brother to this disease, I wish I had known then what I know now about my part in it.
B
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: East Tawas, MI
Posts: 3,683
You can't help someone who is not willing to help themselves. I, too, at one time tried to diagnose my daughter's problems. The problem with that is that she was using and when an addict is active in their addiction, it is impossible to know if it is the drug causing the behavior or if they really have a mental problem. I had to let go of trying to figure things out and let my daughter figure them out for herself. All it will do is drive you crazy too. Let him go, let him figure out his own stuff. Like we say here, "Let go or be dragged". By the way, since I have given responsibility of addiction back to my daughter, she is figuring out her own life and doing okay with it. Hugs, Marle
Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: a better place
Posts: 4,047
I'm sorry you are going through this with your BIL, but it truly is beyond your control. When he has had enough, he will make the choice to work with professionals to change. Unfortunately, from your post it appears his addiction has resulted in your panic, fear, worry, need to take on the burden, etc. that is so much a part of this family disease.
I too urge you to read all you can about addiction and codependency and to try some Alanon or Naranon meetings. Try 6 and see if that's the place for you. I knew when the rooms helped me to get some tools to address my part of this family disease, and when I felt the love and support of people who had been where I was, that Naranon was the place for me. Sending positive thoughts and prayers.
I too urge you to read all you can about addiction and codependency and to try some Alanon or Naranon meetings. Try 6 and see if that's the place for you. I knew when the rooms helped me to get some tools to address my part of this family disease, and when I felt the love and support of people who had been where I was, that Naranon was the place for me. Sending positive thoughts and prayers.
Ph.D in insanity!!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 698
It sounds as if the rest of the family members are doing their job and not enabling him. Even as hard as it may be for you, you should do the same thing. An addict will prey on the weakest family member and right now that's you.
Since you are a new mother your instinct is to "take care" of someone. You can not help this person. When he gets sick and tired of being sick and tired then he will find help or kill himself.
Addicts do go through pills pretty fast. The more they take the bigger the buzz or death.
Everyone that you have talked to is right.
When your BIL is ready HE will be the one to call for help.
Right now by helping him in the slightest you are prolonging his want to seek help.
What he is doing is doctor shopping to get his "legal" fixes. If he is caught he will go to prison.
You definitly do not need your child involved even closely to this person. If you are caught with the BIL and he goes down for anything you had better hope and pray they do not take you with him and your child to foster care. Seriously let that be enough to scare you to stay away from him.
I had to do that with my brother who was my children's favorite "crazy" uncle. Just the fear of a million cops pulling around my kids freaked me out. I told my brother he was not allowed near my home or my children.
To this day he does not call me for a place to stay. He knows my boundaries are set in STONE, not sand.
All you can do is pray for him. Give him a list of numbers and tell him when he's ready to make his own phone call and set him free.
Since you are a new mother your instinct is to "take care" of someone. You can not help this person. When he gets sick and tired of being sick and tired then he will find help or kill himself.
Addicts do go through pills pretty fast. The more they take the bigger the buzz or death.
Everyone that you have talked to is right.
When your BIL is ready HE will be the one to call for help.
Right now by helping him in the slightest you are prolonging his want to seek help.
What he is doing is doctor shopping to get his "legal" fixes. If he is caught he will go to prison.
You definitly do not need your child involved even closely to this person. If you are caught with the BIL and he goes down for anything you had better hope and pray they do not take you with him and your child to foster care. Seriously let that be enough to scare you to stay away from him.
I had to do that with my brother who was my children's favorite "crazy" uncle. Just the fear of a million cops pulling around my kids freaked me out. I told my brother he was not allowed near my home or my children.
To this day he does not call me for a place to stay. He knows my boundaries are set in STONE, not sand.
All you can do is pray for him. Give him a list of numbers and tell him when he's ready to make his own phone call and set him free.
Jujubee Queen
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Charlotte, Florida
Posts: 3,582
starryeyz,
Welcome to Sober Recovery.
I just want to say, I know how hard it is to watch someone slowly deteriorating, and realize there is nothing we can do, in our power to stop them. My oldest son is an addict, and believe me I have experienced the same emotions as you, wanting desperately to help.
Try attending meetings, Alanon, Naranon..those meetings are for YOU.
They will help you feel better.
Hugs..
Welcome to Sober Recovery.
I just want to say, I know how hard it is to watch someone slowly deteriorating, and realize there is nothing we can do, in our power to stop them. My oldest son is an addict, and believe me I have experienced the same emotions as you, wanting desperately to help.
Try attending meetings, Alanon, Naranon..those meetings are for YOU.
They will help you feel better.
Hugs..
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 10
I truly hear you
My mom is a psychologist, so I know "theoretically" all about enabling. When I first married into this family I said "Your brother cannot live with us". He went and stayed with his father. Then he "hit bottom", and I said "he cannot stay with anyone unless he is sober". There was no intervention at that time or need to argue. He just went.
But I can see where I began enabling again. He'd been such a mess for 20 years, and now he was sober and going to AA meetings, I thought "I will help him stay sober". So I did a lot of leg work for him when he came out, found him a psychiatrist that wasn't a pusher, paid for his school. Helped him find a place to live. He was dead broke, and I felt that school would be really hard being dead broke (my parents helped me through school). And I thought, I'm going to make this sober path easy for him.
I thought, he will relapse, and we will tell him he has to go back to sober living when that happens. That was the extent of my plan. I'm new on the block, you know.
He's not my blood family, and so I am ready to take him to a detox center with his bag and give him a kiss on the cheek and say good luck. But my husband is not. And we were all taken by surprise, though we shouldn't have been. The rest of the family has not hit bottom themselves, I think.
So I know what is likely to happen next. He will continue to game us, and we will drag this out, until a decision is forced.
However, when I realized what was going on (he wasn't switching meds he was using), I was ready to kick him out. I had to wait to get myself in a safe place to do so (Bring my husband back from work). Then I kicked the brother out of the house with a single bag to his name. (He had been living alone in an apartment, then to save money, we had him move in with us) I told my husband he could not live here. I told my brother he could not be around my child and he was a danger. I also told him he we would not help him to live independently. We would only pay for a sober living place for him to live. "We will pay for you to live a clean life, but not an addicted one".
As you know, he said no.
The last step is for us to drop him off at a detox center and say "good luck." Is that the most responsible answer for abandoning someone? Or maybe, what I should say is, his family has not yet hit bottom and they need to find a way to let him fall where they won't stay up at night and say "I killed him." I feel leaving someone alone with the answer ten steps away is the best guilt assuager I know of.
I think I will try to convince everyone of the plan that we will keep him in this hotel for 7 days then abandon him at a detox center with his cell phone and a list of helpline numbers.
As for the rest. What is all this research for? It is really for me more than anyone else. I wonder now if he was sober all this time. What did drinking 10 energy drinks a day mean? The obsession with excercise? I would like to call his bullsh*t sooner next time.
And if he goes to a sober living facility? Do I make his path easy for him when he is sober?
You are right, I should go to these 12 step meetings to be around people who've thought through this more clearly. For this moment, I need a short term plan, but setting clear boundaries and consequences for his actions in the future is what's going to be most important for the rest of the family. We need to be psychologically and emotionally prepared, and have agreed in advance to what we're going to do in this scenario when it happens again.
But I can see where I began enabling again. He'd been such a mess for 20 years, and now he was sober and going to AA meetings, I thought "I will help him stay sober". So I did a lot of leg work for him when he came out, found him a psychiatrist that wasn't a pusher, paid for his school. Helped him find a place to live. He was dead broke, and I felt that school would be really hard being dead broke (my parents helped me through school). And I thought, I'm going to make this sober path easy for him.
I thought, he will relapse, and we will tell him he has to go back to sober living when that happens. That was the extent of my plan. I'm new on the block, you know.
He's not my blood family, and so I am ready to take him to a detox center with his bag and give him a kiss on the cheek and say good luck. But my husband is not. And we were all taken by surprise, though we shouldn't have been. The rest of the family has not hit bottom themselves, I think.
So I know what is likely to happen next. He will continue to game us, and we will drag this out, until a decision is forced.
However, when I realized what was going on (he wasn't switching meds he was using), I was ready to kick him out. I had to wait to get myself in a safe place to do so (Bring my husband back from work). Then I kicked the brother out of the house with a single bag to his name. (He had been living alone in an apartment, then to save money, we had him move in with us) I told my husband he could not live here. I told my brother he could not be around my child and he was a danger. I also told him he we would not help him to live independently. We would only pay for a sober living place for him to live. "We will pay for you to live a clean life, but not an addicted one".
As you know, he said no.
The last step is for us to drop him off at a detox center and say "good luck." Is that the most responsible answer for abandoning someone? Or maybe, what I should say is, his family has not yet hit bottom and they need to find a way to let him fall where they won't stay up at night and say "I killed him." I feel leaving someone alone with the answer ten steps away is the best guilt assuager I know of.
I think I will try to convince everyone of the plan that we will keep him in this hotel for 7 days then abandon him at a detox center with his cell phone and a list of helpline numbers.
As for the rest. What is all this research for? It is really for me more than anyone else. I wonder now if he was sober all this time. What did drinking 10 energy drinks a day mean? The obsession with excercise? I would like to call his bullsh*t sooner next time.
And if he goes to a sober living facility? Do I make his path easy for him when he is sober?
You are right, I should go to these 12 step meetings to be around people who've thought through this more clearly. For this moment, I need a short term plan, but setting clear boundaries and consequences for his actions in the future is what's going to be most important for the rest of the family. We need to be psychologically and emotionally prepared, and have agreed in advance to what we're going to do in this scenario when it happens again.
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