juju

Well, here we go again. The lies. Ugh, they make me crazier than anything. AH thinks I need to just write off the other night as a “slip” and move on. Sure, ok, I could concede to that. But then, I find out he is and has been hitting the vodka and hiding it from me. (Which I already knew, but my mentality was not to worry about “what” he drank, but his behavior “when“ he drank).

Yesterday morning, he is apologetic, etc. etc.. Tells me he dumped his stash. Ok.

Yesterday afternoon, gets home from work. Makes a great show (and I think expects accolades) of telling me how he just dumped his stash. Wait a minute, you told me you dumped it this morning?!?! WTF?!?!

So, needless to say, I’m ticked off. I think I have every right to be. I do not like being lied to. And he does it soooo easily and convincingly. He thinks just saying “sorry” is enough and I should move on. Well, sorry doesn’t work anymore, and since I’m ticked off, HE’S gonna be ticked off. Totally blew off our plans for last night. Disappointed our son. (I took ds anyway, but he was bummed that daddy wasn‘t there). (DD was at a b-day party). Even flipped me off where our son could see. “Oh, daddy was just kidding”. Great. Wonderful.

So now, our whole relationship is back to misery (in his eyes). (We had been doing pretty well). He drinks cuz he’s unhappy, he lies because he HAS to. WTF????? And he “almost” canceled his week off next week cuz he doesn’t want to be at home (because it‘s such a den of unhappiness, don‘t ya know). All I said was “ok”. Veiled threats aren’t working anymore.

I think he’s trying to bully me. Maybe he figures that if he acts like he doesn’t care, isn’t happy, etc. etc., I’ll smooth it all over, tell him it’s ok, and life will go on. And that “is” what I have done in the past. But now, I see it as my feelings are unimportant and as long as you don’t get in the way of my drinking, everything will be fine. Well, *#^$ that! My feelings matter to me! And, as my husband, they SHOULD matter to you!!!

I think I’m going to find an Alanon meeting today. Honestly, I’m worried that all they’re going to say is “leave him”. I can’t hear that right now.

OK, just let me say this:
$%&^$(#()#$*(%)#(&*$#(*#%_#(%&*@#&*^!@(*%)$#%&#*&^ @#(@$*&#()*&@&*#^@*&$^@*($&(@*#&(@*#&(@* and &#(*&@#!
OK, I feel a little better.

Barbara52

I sincerely doubt anyone at AlAnon is going to say that. They will help you perhaps figure out what you can and want to do.

The lies are hard to deal with. Lord knows lies and empty promises are all I got from my xAH. Its what As do in general.

So you get to figure out what you are willing and able to do to improve life for yourself and your children. AlAnon is a good tool. Depending on the ages of your kids AlAteen can help them deal with all the effects they are feeling from this madness.

shadowwood

I am always amazed at the ease with which alcoholics can lie.

Years ago, when my brother was newly out of jail and was supposed to be abstaining from alchohol, my mother noticed that he was disappearing for long stretches of time on his four wheeler.

Conversation went like this:

Mom: You are gone an awful lot on that four wheeler lately. You aren't off drinking somewhere are you?

Bart: GEEZ Mom! What do you think-- that I have a beer tree out in the woods?

Earlier he had told me that he did, in fact, keep a case of beer hidden out in the woods. But he lied to her with just the right amount of indignance and insulted righteousness in his voice that she bought it hook, line and sinker.

Blah.

respektingme

juju, I've been exactly where you are..... um, as recently as Sunday night!

I've been to Alanon. And at first it turned me off so much. I mean, they don't want to hear about my AH, only me. Now it makes a little more sense.

Here's the skinny in a nutshell. It doesn't matter what you do when you find out he's been drinking. It just doesn't. I've done it all. Ignored him, screamed at him, threatened him, pretended I didn't notice, looked for bottles, made him promise, poured my heart out, pleaded for him to spare his health for the sake of his family, etc. Nothing phases him. It just doesn't. All my reactions though, sure cause me a whole lot of drama. I got spinning like a top, and he's just the same. He's going to drink whenever he wants to.

Oh, and the reasons he drinks? Same as yours. I bet many here would say the same thing. His poor life. Ever notice how he can pick a fight and then drink soon after? Gotta love that one. You thought you were actually fighting over something. Nope, he was looking for a "trigger" to drink. There will always be reasons, and when you're actively chapping his hide for drinking, that's the most convenient one. Get this. My AH has 3 adult children from another marriage and a mother who was raised by an alcoholic and is married to one. She is a master controller times 10. So, he leads them to think he drinks because of me. But in the past, he's led me to think he drinks because of them. Guess what??? The result has been war between them and me for our entire 15-year marriage. He feels sorry for himself because he's "been put in the middle". He made this hornet's nest. It's just far too convenient to tap into the mess for reasons to drink.

All in all, these men don't need reasons. The only ones they work on are the ones who buy into them, namely us. The only reason they are able to lie is because we listen. I don't buy into my AH's promises to be sober anymore. Just 3 weeks ago, he said with all finality, he was "DONE" with it all. Then he was stupidified in the recliner Sunday night.

You have to live your life within your rules, not his drama. You need to realize that a very large percentage of what comes out of his mouth is designed to manipulate you like a pinball machine. It's designed to get the focus off of himself and onto you. It only works if you let it. Chances are, he has no idea what he even feels about himself, your or your marriage anymore. He probably stays so focused on his booze, that he hasn't paid it much real thought lately. Except if you're hounding him about his drinking, then he's probably stewing on that.

The truth is, you and I are both married to alcoholics. That means they drink. We didn't cause it, we can't cure it and we can't control it. There's a pretty good chance our husbands may wind up like many before them who were never able (well, they probably could have if they really wanted to) stop drinking. The only advice I can give is what my counselor gave to me. There will come a day when you can't stand being in the situation another 5 minutes, let alone 5 days, 5 weeks, 5 months or 5 years. You'll know what that day comes. Till then, do some smart things to prepare yourself. Start your own bank account, finish a degree, be employable, volunteer, sign your kids up for lessons, stay active, and forget all his drama.

I used to look for bottles. I don't anymore. One of the last times my AH drank, he had sworn to me the day before that all the booze was out of the house. Then after he was drinking, he said, "Every alcoholic has their stash." I presume he speaks for others because he's heard others talk about it in their meetings. If your AH wants to hide bottles in the house, he will. If you find them, he'll get more. If you never find them, you can take back that drama-filled time and have peace instead.

Good luck to you. I'm right there with you. About the only thing I have to say to my AH about any of it will be the next time he expounds on how he disapproves of some of my relatives who happen to be gay. It's just against his "beliefs". I've heard that self-righteous mumbo-jumbo from him and his stepfather (both alcoholics) and it's offensive. I love my relatives and care for their partners. One is battling cancer at the moment. I don't know exactly what I'll say yet, but neither of them is going to get away with putting anyone in my family down anymore based on their moral/ethical/religious beliefs. They assume I won't respond because their drinking is "taboo". I'm kickin "taboo" to the curb. It's like they hide under the curtain of "anonymity" while they condemn everyone else.

Oh well, I'm ranting. Stay focused and use your filter when he's talking. My AH used to say the most horrible stuff to me when he was drunk and it shattered my self-esteem. Now, he could say just about anything, true or not, and I just see it as Jack Daniels talking. Bla bla bla.

Bernadette

Hey juju--
I remember sitting in my therapist's office and saying "I AM NOT getting a divorce!!!" I mean there just was no way! We had these two beautiful boys. I was strong enough to make marriage work. Things would change and it would get better, damn it!!
And she said, "OK. Well what are you going to do? Because this man is a boulder. And in so much as you may be able to make a boulder move, it will take super-human effort and focus, and even then it may only budge a tiny bit. So what ARE YOU going to do?" She made the picture of my inability to change my ex's problems very clear to me. And I knew from having been in AlAnon for years that I needed to step completely off - just let go 100% of trying to manage his problems, trying to point out his shortcomings and mistakes and get him to stop, or change, or acknowledge, or pay attention, or ANYTHING. I just had to drop it and put the focus on me.

Put down the magnifying glass and look in the mirror.

Alanon helps with this. No one will tell you to leave your husband. If they do, so what? You're the one steering your ship toward your destiny, so who cares what anyone else says? Take what you can use from a meeting and leave the rest. But you may hear many stories of people who were in your shoes who did leave their husbands. And that may be because they reached a place where they were not getting what they needed or deserved out of their partner and their kids were soaking up some pretty negative lessons about relationship dynamics, self-esteem, and drinking, and so they left. We all have a choice. None of us can know, today, our entire future!

My mother did not divorce my father. She lived with an active alcoholic for 21 years and then a recovered alcoholic for 20 years. She did what was right for her. She suffered enormously during those 21 years of active addiciton. She is 72 now, widowed, and I can still see how her very best qualities were completely warped by her ferocious codependency all those years. All 5 of us kids suffered. I have 3 addict brothers (alcohol and pot). And my sister and I were like codie replicants!!! I completely recreated the alkie-codie dynamic in my marriage even though my ex was not an alcoholic he was an irresponsibiliholic! I "woke up" in therapy and realized I had perfectly recreated my parent's dynamic in their marriage with him doing only what he wanted to do and nothing getting in the way of his laziness and irresponsibility and me running around THINKING I was managing the world and being a good mom. Ha. REALITY is wonderful thing. I didn't want to be like my mother and end up warped after 20 years of hell waiting for SOMEONE else to change. So I did get a divorce. I did change my life and my self. I am so much healthier and happier and relaxed! My boys are great. I have a good friendship with their dad and his new wife and daughter. He is THE SAME!! Still mismanagaing money, ignoring his wife and daughter, missing appointments, deadlines, plans with the kids, still lives in a fantasy land, in total denial, etc. It never went away. It was never my problem to fix!

All this to say - juju, if you know what you are NOT going to do that is a good start. But you have to get the focus on yourself and start figuring out what you are going to do. The world is open to you. Since you want to stay in the marriage find an AlAnon meeting you can attend regularly that will give you some really good tools for living with an alcoholic. If you follow those AlAnon steps it WILL change YOUR life for the better!

And please start talking to the kids about what is really going on. Daddy was just kidding??? C'mon. Any 11 year old worth his salt is not going to believe that and is going to wonder why mom is lying...again the shame and secrecy thing that is like the bread and butter in alcoholic families. (Lies, lies, lies all around!!!) AlAteen has lots of good literature and meetings when your kids are a little older. AlAnon also has some good literature on how to talk to your kids and how to teach them about alcoholism/addiction. Until you get pro-active about helping them deal with REALITY they will just continue to absorb this relationship dynamic that exists between you and your hubby and think it is normal.

It is great you are going to try AlAnon - it may feel awkward at first but give it several tries. What you're trying to do is very very difficult - changing ourselves is the hardest thing in the world! But it is so worth it. Once you have some practice in detaching and keeping the focus on yourself you will feel more peace of mind. Sending you a shot of courage and a (((hug))).
Peace,
B.

respektingme

Juju and Bernadette,

About telling your kids..... our counselor has advised my AH and I to talk to our kids about it. Despite the fact that my AH is a binger and drinks in the middle of the night usually, about every 2-3 weeks. I told our counselor I was hoping AH would sober up and we wouldn't have to tell our kids about it. But the counselor said we live it and we will always live with it in one way or another. Best to inform them. We haven't done it yet. AH wants to be there when we tell them, but he's dragging his feet. No wonder, I hate to burst their innocence as well.

So, I know where you are coming from. We'll probably tell our son by the end of the summer. Just a drag really. It is what it is.

Bernadette

Ugh, it is SUCH a drag!! It can make me really angry that we have this in our life/family and have to deal with it.

But reality is best. My brothers are wonderful guys, and it was heartbreaking for me to tell my boys about their alcoholism. Because it does change things. But it lets us all live in REALITY. It takes me off the hook with trying to "cover" for their Uncles, or lie about why they behave the way they do. So it is hard, but when I read biographies of amazing people, I'm always impressed at how much adverse reality a child can handle as long as there is that one person in their life being straight with them and encouraging them in THEIR destiny. I also found that it is not a complete loss of innocence at all. In fact, once reality is on the table it frees the kids up to stop feeling the anxiety they have been feeling (because trust me, I lived it, they KNOW things ain't right and it is a sick feeling). It lets them know it is an adult problem being handled by adults and that you are there to talk truth to them if they are ever upset by this or anything else. Trust. Enormously reassuring for little ones! Let's them just be kids again!

It's the saying of the words that is hard!! Once the words are out there and everyone is on the same page it gets easier. It will be hard for your husband to be there during that conversation - he will really be squirming. And if he tries any manipulation or denial you may have to have your own confab w/ the kids without him and explain how much denial is a party of this damn disease!!

Good luck all - keep it REAL!!
Peace,
B.

Kindeyes

juju
I'm glad you got that off your chest. Now you can breathe!

I don't think that anyone at Alanon will tell you to leave him. They are working on their own issues and one of those issues that many of us have is that we have a tendency to want to run everyone else's life. If someone DOES try to tell you to leave him, I would suspect that they will be gently corrected for trying to run your life. It is, and always will be, your choice to stay with him or leave him. The role of the other folks at Alanon is to help you find serenity.....whether your husband is drinking or not.

One of the common phrases at an Alanon meeting is "take what you want/need and leave the rest".

gentle hugs

Mair

Ahh the lies.
"I'm going to stop drinking"
"Ive lost my money"
"Ive got cancer"
"Im going to jail"

Agggh the most annoying trait all alcoholics have. That's their choice I guess. I chose not to listen anymore.

take care

Mair xx

respektingme

More about telling the kids. In my case, there are times when the kids think I'm being unfair to them, when they don't know the reasons I make some of the decisions that I do. It will be a relief for me when they know for that reason alone. For instance, I don't allow my AH to take them on trips without me. Call it control, but my number one job is to make sure my kids stay safe, and my AH puts his booze first, so too bad. We're not divorced, so it's not like a judge can mandate it.

Well, my kids often want to know why they can't go with their dad. Now they'll know. I'm sick of looking like the bad guy. I'd love nothing better than to take a trip to see my family and leave them home with their father. But I can't trust him, so his burden is our burden. But he can take responsibility for it, not me.

Barbara52

I'll only note that kids know much more than most give them credit for. Kids are very observant and soak everything up like little sponges. They may not know the specifics of what is going on, but they know that things aren't "right."

I know that from a young age I knew my parents were different, that life in my house was different, that mom and dad acted strangely after drinking that "stuff." I also knew it was my fault somehow, that if I only could be a good kid, life would get better. Not the message anyone intends to send their kids but one kids always pick up on.

Learning how

Juju, Even and AA meetings they say if an As lips are moving he is lying.
I have a very hard time telling when my AH is telling the truth. He as told so many strories over the years. In alanon I have had to learn to look at his actions not the words. They don't often go together. I would hang on the words.... did that for years. (he not drinking but the ism continues):Try an alanon meeting, if the one you choose doesn't fit try a different one.
It was the first place I could go, really say what was going on in my life and have no one even flinch. I am not doing so well myself right now but there is a noon meeting today and I am going to go and soak in the strength and the calm. Hope you can too.

FormerDoormat

Why would this comment bother you the most? So much so that even the mere possibility that someone would utter this would be too much to bear? Yet you can bear lies, and drinking, and manipulations, and emotional abuse from your AH on a daily basis.

I reckon the reason is the same reason I hate to step on the scale at the doctor's office. Reality is hard to deal with. But ignoring the problem never made the pounds melt away. In fact it added to my already heavy load. Dealing with reality is hard but it's the only thing that yields results.

Fear = denial and inaction.
Dealing with reality = facing the truth and action.

Astro

Nothing can ever justify my behavior as an alcoholic. I can lie and manipulate with the best of them. Thank God for the spiritual program of AA, it gives me a little relief from the wreckage of my past.

This is posted every so often, the first time I read it I was shocked at the harsh truth of what we do.......

What Addicts Do

My name's Jon. I'm an addict. And this is what addicts do. You cannot nor will not change my behavior. You cannot make me treat you better, let alone with any respect. All I care about, all I think about, is my needs and how to go about fufilling them. You are a tool to me, something to use. When I say I love you I am lying through my teeth, because love is impossible for someone in active addiction. I wouldn't be using if I loved myself, and since I don't, I cannot love you.

My feelings are so pushed down and numbed by my drugs that I could be considered sociopathic. I have no empathy for you or anyone else. It doesn't faze me that I hurt you, leave you hungry, lie to you, cheat on you and steal from you.

My behavior cannot and will not change until i make a decison to stop using/drinking and then follow it up with a plan of action.

And until I make that decsion, I will hurt you again and again and again.

Stop being surprised.

I am an addict. And that's what addicts do.

juju

Wow, so much amazing feedback and support. I'm floored.

I've always felt alone in my battle. I'm a very private person, and I only let people see what I want them to see. But this is just amazing. I'm learning that it's ok to ask for help. And it's ok to accept it. And I can feel better because of it. I'm NOT alone.

I AM going to a meeting tonight. I am I am I am. It is actually at the same time/place as my friend's AA mtg. So, we're going on a "date", her and I!! Meetings then Costco. 2 therapies in one night! LOL!

I'm nervous, will probably sit there and say nothing. But I need time to warm up to people. I know that about myself.

FormerDoormat, to answer your great question (that I've asked myself 100 times). I'm just not ready to give up yet. It's not that I can't bear the thought, I just worry that that's all they'll say. I just hope there are other options I can try first. That way, if/when the day does come, I can say to myself I tried everything I could think of. When he's sober, he's all I've ever wished for. I can't have any doubt in my mind that I tried everything first, if/when that day comes. Both for my sake and the sake of the kids.

Astro

I've never felt alone in recovery juju! Hope your meeting goes well, glad to hear you're going.

respektingme

juju,

Glad you're feeling better. I'm going to Costco today too!!

I know what you mean about hanging on to hope. Don't know if I'll ever completely give up, particularly after meeting some gals who have been married to AH's who have been sober for a number of years. So, it's possible. I also don't like to think that he'd pick the bottle over us.

There are no time limits. You will know what is right for you. I see a counselor who also has experience treating A's. That has helped me too, as well as Alanon, because I get one on one feedback.

Chrysalis123

Hi Juju,

I was really nervous to go to my first meeting. It took all my courage to walk up those steps and into the room. I was surprised at the calm and really surprised that once the meeting got going I just sat and listened and I started to cry. I did that for the first few meetings. No one said anything, but they did pass me the tissues. Now I know that people cry at meetings and they also laugh and say the most amazing and insightful things. They truly listen and that was new to me after so many years of allowing myself to be treated poorly. It really is a wonderful and accepting thing. In the meetings I go to people don't offer much advice at all during the meetings. Mostly people just listen. I have a sponsor and when I call her she will sometimes give me her opinion. Mostly I come up with ideas on my own.

I have 2 kids age 10 and 12. My counselor and the kids' counselor have me talking to them about alcoholism. They know dad is sick with something called alcoholism and it is like an allergy. You know if you are allergic to peanuts and eat peanuts you get sick. We also talk about the "isms" of his disease. Today he responded in an inappropriate way to one of them. The kid was really angry and so we talked about how because dad is sick he did this. It was not their fault and yes it really did happen and their gut reaction was correct (he lies and denies his behavior). We then talked about appropriate responses from them if that particular behavior happens again.

I can see the counseling and the openness about what is happening helping them. But, this is just my experience so take whay you want and leave the rest!

lizw

Hi juju

Glad to read your going to a meeting. No one in Al Anon told me to leave my alcoholic partner. In fact they told me not to make any major decisions for the 1st year. It was quite nice to FINALLY decide that I would stay in the relationship for at least a year. It stopped my head going on about how I should or why I shouldn't leave. It was relief.

I don't know if it has crossed your mind to assume that nearly everything he says is a lie, instead of believing him each time only to be disappointed. Insanity is doing the same thing and expected a different result, so if your history is you believe him only to find out he is lying and it feels awful, you can change this situation/equation by not beleiving what he says in the first place.

That has nothing to do with him and everything to do with you - we can change the world, by changing ourselves.

Hope Al Anon was helpful. While AA got me sober and keeps me sober, Al Anon teaches me how to take care of myself and have healthy relationships.