lizw

Since I am a New Zealander I am totally unaware of how many 12 step programs there are overseas.

Here we have or have had at some stage (that I have heard of)
aa, na, al anon, al ateen, nar anon, oa, grey eaters, aba, coda, acoa, slaa
NZ only has 3 - 4 million people too, so we are a pretty small country.

I was wondering what other 12 steps programs there are and also what the 3rd tradition is of each one? For example AA's 3rd tradition is anyone with a desire to stop drinking, can attend AA.

I also wondered if all 12 step substance abuse programs, encourage abstance from ALL mind and mood altering substances? Like NA says alcohol is a drug so should be avoided etc.. Or do they suggest just stay away form the one you have trouble with hence the use of the term DOC, i.e pills.??

I look forward to reading any info anyone can provide.
:ghug

sailorjohn

I think they do, and for a very good reason, addicts can switch addictions/DOC very easily, and despite what you've read not all substances have the same addiction rates. IIRC I've read that cocaine and alcohol have around 10% addiction rates-despite what they say about crack-but heroin has a 100% addiction rate. If you use heroin for 4 weeks you will be an addict. I am of the firm belief that generally, addicts are addicts, if we are lucky/unlucky enough to be alcoholics, we need to avoid all mind-altering substances. Just my thoughts, ymmv.

NoelleR

"...I was wondering what other 12 steps programs there are and also what the 3rd tradition is of each one?..."

The list you put up just above is pretty close to all that we have here in the States (oh yeh; I got one not on the list...GA (gamblers anonymous); but then I don't know them all.....lol.....and I only know AA & NA intimately since they're the only ones I really need and have attended and utilized, so, I'm really only familiar with their traditions.


"... AA's 3rd tradition is anyone with a desire to stop drinking, can attend AA..."

Actually the only requirement for MEMBERSHIP is a desire to stop drinking. Anyone can attend an OPEN AA meeting, but only those who are willing to admit they are alcoholics should go to CLOSED AA meetings.


"...I also wondered if all 12 step substance abuse programs, encourage abstance from ALL mind and mood altering substances?..."

Since I can only honestly speak for AA and/or NA, I guess I can point out that yes, NA states to abstain from all mind altering substances, BUT AA has a 'Singleness of Purpose,' in which they state that they only deal with alcohol, alcoholics, and alcoholism. Therefore AA's stand (not the opinions of AAer's, but of AA as the entity) is abstinance from alcohol only (personally, not my kind of sobriety or recovery, but what the hey....lol).


"...NA says alcohol is a drug so should be avoided..."

Yup, it's not just that NA says that alcohol is a drug; it is a drug and therefore included throughout NA and in their third tradition.....: the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using all mind-altering substances).


NoelleR

P.S. "...NZ only has 3 - 4 million people too, so we are a pretty small country..." ---- As you can see from my profile I'm in Houston, TX, and in TX everything is bigger....lol....heck Houston is as big as the state of Rhode Island (granted it's a small state, but it is a state....lol), and a recent count showed there are approximately 5.5 million folks livin' here.....our medical center here is so large (with 65,000-70,000 job oportunities and approximately 160,000 folks in 'n outta there daily) it qualifies for the 17th largest CITY in the US (o:
Y'all c'mon over fer a visit 'n set a spell........... (o:

P.P.S. Whoops, I almost forgot.....my DOC was whatever was in front of me at the time.

Gertiegirl

Hey Liz, you forgot a few things in there. In NZ we also have Celebrate Recovery programmes, Salvation Army Bridge programme and the Capital and Coast Community Alcohol and Drug service is pretty impressive too! But Im coming in way late to this thread! lol .

lizw

I was thinking about this today when I was using their gym!! Lol

Gertiegirl

LOL which group's? I only thought to post it cause I saw your thread and I had appointments with both Sallies and CADS today... Just wondering - who has a gym??? lol

DJMH

At my AA meetings we have and openly welcome all who suffer from any kind of addiction. At least from what I have seen so far.

Rob B

Am I to assume singleness of purpose is not a big priority in this group?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. AA is not the end all be all for everyone and everything.

freya

Also, there are some Debtors Anonymous groups in the US, too.

freya

This morning I did some volunteer work in support of a certain US presidential candidate. In thinking about what I was doing this morning, I could say that my purpose is "to get Candidate X elected president of the United States" or I could say that my purpose "was to get 200 pieces of mail sent out in support of Candidate X." Both of those statements indicate a "singleness of purpose," but one is much broader and allows for a wider-range of activities on my part and, in fact, includes even the other. My point is that "singleness of purpose" does not necessarily mean "as rigidly and exclusively narrow a purpose as one can possibly make it." There is room for interpretation in all of these things......and, furthermore, based on what I've read of Bill W.'s ever-continuing personal spiritual journey, my guess is that that room was put there deliberately to encourage growing and thinking and ever-increasing trust in HP for anyone who might ever find themselves working the 12 Steps in any context for any reason.

When I first came into program (AL Anon) I struggled quite a lot with whether or not I "belonged" there. My quest to answer that question for myself lead me to read a lot of 12 Step history, including a lot of the usual AA literature, but also a lot of Bill W. letters and writings from every period of his life. What I discovered was a man who was 100% committed to constant personal development and growth and who believed absolutely in true and total, ever developing democracy in human relationships. That, I believe, is a lot of the reason that it took him as long as it did to write the 12&12 and to present the steps and traditions always as guidelines and suggestions rather than as rigid, unquestionable rules. One of the things that I came to really admire about Bill was his willingess to trust in and continually strive to surrender his own ego to that democratic process -- including the fact that such process is always developing and changing and ever-subject to the interpretation and needs of those who are participating in it and to the direction of HP as "channeled" (that's my word, best I can come up with right now) through those participants.

Bill's correspondence with Fr. Ed Dowling (who was not an alcolohic and who Bill considered one of his sponsors and often invited to speak at AA gatherings -- along with other prominent religious leaders who were not alcoholics but who strongly supported AA in its early years) is incredibly interesting. A lot of these letters cover a period when Bill was studying Catholocism with the idea of perhaps converting. He ultimately decided not to and his reasons were because he could not, in the final analysis, "buy into" the rigidly doctrinal and authoritarion structure of the Catholic Church. It is inconceivable to me that man like that would be pleased to discover that there are those who seek to make his own words and ideas into that same kind of excluding, authoritarian dogma.

I guess I'll just end here with some beautiful, compassionate, welcoming, and inclusive words from the man himself: "We of AA cannot help but feel that great things certainly await those who earnestly try our 12 Steps, substituting their own distressing problem for that of alcohol.....To us, grace is an infinite abundance which surely can be shared by all who will renouce their former selves and truly seek it out." (Wilson, Wm., "Is AA for Alcoholics Only?", Guideposts, 1947)

freya

PaulN

My name is Paul and I am an alcoholic. I'm sober through the program & fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous and by the Grace of God as I understand Him.

I'm responding to comment made by DJMH and the comments that have followed. Unfortunately what DJMH shared, seems to be the norm where I am located too, on how AA meetings run. Freya referenced a quote made by Bill W. back in 1947, before AA's 12 Traditions were adopted. I felt it appropriate to add another quote. One that came later on and based upon the experience and knowledge gained in that time.

"We cannot give AA membership to non-alcoholic narcotics-addicts. But like anyone else, they should be able to attend certain open AA meetings, provided, of course, that the groups themselves are willing.

AA members who are so inclined should be encouraged to band together in groups to deal with sedative and drug problems. But they ought to refrain from calling themselves AA groups. There seems to be no reason why several AAs cannot join, if they wish, with a group of straight addicts to solve the alcohol and the drug problem together. But, obviously, such a "dual purpose" group should not insist that it be called an AA group nor should it use the AA name in its title. Neither should its "straight addict" contingent be led to believe that they have become AA members by reason of such an association. Certainly there is every good reason for interested AAs to join with "outside" groups, working on the narcotic problem, provided the Traditions of anonymity and of "no endorsements" are respected." Bill W. February 1958 Grapevine.

AA's primary purpose is to stay sober and to help other alcoholics achieve sobriety. It would bode well for the alcoholic and the non-alcoholic to research and educate themselves on the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, before commenting what Alcoholics Anonymous is and is not. I'd also suggest doing some research on the The Washingtonians and the Oxford Group to better understand the gravety of this singleness of purpose.

Pinkcuda

Thanks for bringing up The Washingtonians Paul.
The Story of the Washingtonians shows how extremely important Traditions and Singleness of Purpose is to AA.
The Traditions were written as a direct result to the extinction of The Washingtonians.

Read:
Washingtonians at their peak numbered in the tens of thousands, possibly as high as 300,000. However in the space of just a few years this society all but disappeared because they became fragmented in their primary purpose, becoming involved with all manner of controversial social reforms including prohibition, sectarian religion, politics and abolition of slavery. It is believed that Abraham Lincoln attended one of the great revivals, presumably not for treatment, but out of interest in various issues being discussed.

The Washingtonians drifted away from their initial purpose of helping the individual alcoholic. Disagreements, controversies and infighting destroyed what was at one time a beneficial resource to the problem drinker, and their good work perished in the swirl of controversy over temperance and prohibition. Their successes, which might have been advanced to treat untold thousands of alcoholics, perished along with them.

The Washingtonians became so thoroughly extinct that, some 50 years later in 1935 when William Griffith Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith joined together in forming Alcoholics Anonymous, neither of them had ever heard of the Washingtonians. In the late 1940s through 1950, AA formed and enacted its Twelve Traditions, principles which guide the AA groups from such pitfalls as befell the Washingtonians. The lesson learned from the demise of the Washingtonians was that AA needed to avoid outside, controversial, non-AA issues, thus establishing a tradition of Singleness of Purpose.

freya

Paul and Pink:

I am aware of the history of the Washingtonians. The thing with them was that they got involved in and tried to influence all kinds of wide-ranging and political issues (and this within a relatively short time), many of which had not even a tangental connection to their original purpose. What I said in my earlier post was that "singleness of purpose" does not necessarily mean the most narrowly defined purpose possible; I did not say or even imply that it could or should mean any range of purposes whatsoever.

I totally understand and appreciate your perspectives, and I personally know many people who share them (within several different 12 Step Programs), and that, to me, is one of the great things about 12 Step Programs and about the brilliance behind the "openness" of the traditions. I mean, people who want/choose/need to deal with only the most narrow interpretation possible are able to find/have/start/attend meetings that work for them and that they are comfortable in and people who want/need/choose a more open interpretation are able to have meetings that work for them and that are comfortable for them. There is no human "ultimate authority" that comes downs and says: "you can't," "you shouldn't," "you must." (.....and, as far as I know, HP has not recently issued any press releases -- or any stone tablets -- expressing His/Her/Its will one way or the other.). I mean, there may be individual members who feel and say those things to other members or who decide not to attend certain meetings because they feel that they are "bad" AA or "bad" Al Anon, or "bad" whatever......but, in general, the participants in each group, as guided by HP through their group consciences, come to the understandings and make the decisions that work for them....and, still, the fellowships as a whole prosper and thrive and do much good work despite (or I tend to think "because of") the differences between individual members and individual groups and because of the room that there is in the Traditions to accommodate those differences.

To me, this is really a miracle, and it is something that I personally value very highly and have not found in any other relatively large and effective human system. In my experience, one of the hallmarks of great thinkers -- and I consider Bill W. a great thinker -- is that they leave behind them work that has the ability to grow and develop and remain powerful and relevant to mankind even as mankind changes and grows and develops. So, as far as I can see, if different things are working for different people and everyone is getting their needs met (unless, of course, it happens to be their need to force others to be and feel and think exactly as they do or to try to deny others the same right to get their needs met!), then there's room for it all and it's all good.

freya