AliceinWndrland

I just posted this as a response to someone else, but I think I'm going to post it here as my own thread instead of hijacking theirs I always welcome the feedback I hear here...
about a month and a half ago, my dad told me he never wanted to speak to me again, then decided he wanted to talk again... in the spirit of trying to better our relationship, I sent him a long email - very difficult for me to write - about how I feel about things between us, and how important I think it is for him to start seeking treatment for his alcoholism and depression. He wrote me back a sarcastic, 4word response. I sent another email in response to that, telling him how it had hurt me, that I wasn't telling him what to do, but saying what I thought was important for our relationship, and he wrote back and basically said that i am just trying to force him to do what I think is right, that I'm looking for any excuse to get away from him, and goodbye again...
So I'm at a loss right now what to do. I've tried writing another response but I just feel like I come up with nothing. I can just hear his argumentative reply in my head. He is not open to me at all. Yet he's going through this "hard time" and I feel like I'm abandoning him, or at least that's what he would say... I tried to feel detached, but at the same time I wanted to express how I was feeling, and now I just feel like he's kicking sand in my face... do I want to try to continue contact? no contact? I don't know...
thanks for any insights you have to share...
-alice

GingerM

Do YOU feel like you're abandoning him, or do you hear him telling you that you're abandoning him?

One of the problems with being an ACoA is often we hear the tapes of others in our heads and we assume they are our own thoughts.

I would urge you to look deeply into yourself and try to ignore the voice of your father. Find your own voice and see what it's telling you.

One of the ways I have found helps me is to assume the person I'm talking to is a stranger or maybe a coworker - someone I may know but only by name/face, not intimately. Then I ask myself how I would react if they treated me this way. That helps get rid of the 'parental voices' when I'm thinking through the process.

DesertEyes

Hi there Alice

( love your nickname )

I used to do that too, kept walking up to a rock in the desert expecting to find water. I've heard in my meetings that if I keep repeating the same behavior over and over and over and each time I magically expect a different result, that I have found the definition of insanity. I kept expecting my alcoholic parents to magically become responsible, sensible human beings. The only magic that I have found is when I got recovery for _me_, instead of expecting it for them.

I'm going to take a wild guess here. Tell me if I'm way off. The way I understood it, it was _him_ that said he would never speak to you again. However, he keeps throwing you these "hooks" to keep you emotionally involved. To me it sounds very manipulative.

I think it's perfectly fine to express feelings. It's something that has helped me a lot in my recovery. What works for me is to be very picky about who gets the honor of helping me express my feeelings. I only share them with people that have earned my trust by respecting my feelings. They kick sand in my face _once_ and I go find me a different beach

I dunno, maybe instead of limiting yourself to two choices; contact vs. no contact, you can open a whole bunch new choices. How about no contact about feelings, no contact when he's drinking, no contact when you need a weekend off, but yes contact when you are feeling emotinally strong and are on your way to your al-anon meet or therapist apointment.

Whenever I find myself stuck between two choices I have learned to stop, because I am thinking in absolutes. If I take a break and then find a whole bunch of "inbetween" choices I can find a much healthier and productive answer.

Whadya think?

Mike

AliceinWndrland

ginger, you are absoluately right. I am hearing his voice in my head, not my own. I feel like I'm so confused and mixed-up about the way things have turned out - I don't what my own voice is anymore. I feel like I can't separate my true feelings from my "shoulds" I think I pushed away so many feelings about him for so long - tried to pretend everything was ok - that now a lifetime of feelings is coming up and I just feel overwhelmed by it all...

Mike - I feel totally manipulated by him. Part of the reason I even started talking to him again in the first place was because he told me he "probably" had pancreatic cancer... which, after some lab tests, it turns out he does not. I'm not sure to what degree he was exagerating that or not. So when the pressure of that was off, I thought - good, let's try and get honest here, and really try and work on some of these issues. We've gone from being so close to being like strangers - let's try and get back to that! But of course, yes, my expectations were that he would "magically" become responsible, and sensible. that he would be on the same page as me, wanting to better our relationship, and do something proactive to take care of himself. I don't *think" he's drinking right now, but he's not in AA, therapy or any kind of program. Basically, he's sitting around his dirty apartment, watching TV, sleeping all day, and expecting things to change... THAT is defnitely insanity...
I like your suggestion of the not limiting to 2 choices... the way I left things in my last email were that I would contact him when I was ready and when I had something positive to say. That's what prompted his last "ok best wishes goodbye!" I feel like contacting him right now would be a mistake - I don't know what to say, and I don't think he'd hear me anyway. I try to remind myself that sometimes waiting is a choice, is an action itself, not just a lack of action... then I picture myself calling him in a week, and just hear his voice again telling me how I abandoned him in his time of need... seems to me his "time of need" has been the last 62 years of his life...

I would love to find a different beach - preferably a real one!

GingerM

That first realization is always overwhelming. So consider yourself "normal" at least in that regard

As for separating the 'shoulds' and finding your own voice, what worked for me was first to just note anytime I felt like I 'should' do something - don't try to change it, don't chastise yourself, just note that you just said "should", even if you don't realize until several hours later, still note it. This helped me become aware of how often I was doing it.

After you can catch yourself in the process (versus hours later), then stop and *think*. As ACoA's, we're pretty REactive as opposed to PROactive in our lives. So once you've gotten really good at noting when you give yourself a 'should', then ask yourself if you wish, want or would be in your best interest. If the thing you 'should' be doing/feeling/thinking does not fit into one of those categories, then it is not YOUR voice you're hearing.

As a species we are very self centered. Our own voice will always speak in "I" or "me" sentences. So if you think something and you neither wish it nor want it nor would it be in your best interest, then the voice you're hearing is someone else's. At that point you can choose (yes, you have *choices* in your life!) to listen to that voice or to simply say "that is not my voice and I choose not to follow what it is telling me".

I would guess it took me a month or two (it was a while ago now) to get to where I could 'hear' the 'shoulds' 90% of the time (I still miss one occasionally) and note them. Even though that was probably 2 years ago now, I still have to go through the "do I wish, want or would it be in my best interest" questioning/reasoning thing sometimes to determine whether it's me or someone else's voice. That being said - the tool has helped me immensely, because once I know whether it's me or a different voice, I can change my decision to listen or not listen, act or not act upon it.

If guilt was an olympic event, I would be a gold medalist - guilt was and still is one of the hardest things for me to work on. So this tool has been immensely helpful to me because it addresses on of the biggest challenges I have. Everyone is different, and this might not work for you. I am putting it out there as one option of many.

AliceinWndrland

Ginger thank you, I appreciate this suggestion and I will put it into use. Guilt is such a huge huge factor, and I know he uses it against me. And it seems I use it against myself. It seems these days my own voice is buried pretty deep down..
I know I have to let him make his own decision - treatment, or not, work towards recovery or don't. The thing is, right now, I don't feel any glimmer of possiblity that he will seek treatment. Not just for his alcoholism but a pretty severe depression. I just don't see it happening. So I do feel like I'm badgering him, because I feel like I'm talking to a piece of wood. Angry wood...
I know right now, I just need some time away from this whole situation, just to clear my head and try to work through all the "shoulds" into what I truly feel and want. I have to hope he will come around in his own time to his own solution.
It's just hard to get through all the guilt! I hate feeling like I've given up on him...

GingerM

If, one day, I decided that I wanted to make objects levitate, and if I worked really hard to make objects levitate, and if I devoted most of my life to making objects levitate, and if I had never so much as made something jiggle - would I be giving up? Or would I be accepting the laws of physics and accepting that I am not capable of changing gravity just by mind power alone?

And what is the difference between my wanting (not 'should be able to'ing) to make things levitate, and your wanting to make your dad admit something he may never admit to or seek help for? The only difference is that I can accept the laws of physics and you are still trying to make them levitate.

I "should be able to make things levitate" to the same degree that you "should be able to change your father". He plays by his own rules, and while they may not be as well defined as the laws of gravity, they are equally as non-malleable. Acceptance of this is the key.

Believe me, I wish my parents would see things they either can't or won't see as well. It took me a long time to accept that I would never be able to change them, anymore than I can change any person who doesn't want to change. It's very very hard to do, but you've gotten past the hardest part, which is admitting that you are not who you want to be (which, I think, is where most ACoA's get stuck - they can't admit that they are not who they want to be) and while the rest of it isn't exactly a cake walk, it's not the hardest part. Now your eyes are open, this means that you now have a whole new world of options available to you.

GingerM

Oh, forgot this bit - you might try reframing this concept to "It would be in my best interest to let him make his own decisions as I would stop driving myself insane if I did."

This is how to bypass the guilt. By saying you "have" to (merely a different form of "should"), you imply that if you fail, you are at fault somehow, and the guilt can get you. By saying it would be in your best interest, that has no implicit expectation of actually achieving the goal, just that it would be in your best interest if you did it. If you don't do it, that's okay too.

I just wanted to give you an example of the reframing using the "wish", "want", "would be in my best interest" paradigm.

AliceinWndrland

wow Ginger, that totally just connected with me! Lightbulb! Lightbulb!
Thank you so much for sharing that... truly that just made sense to me in a whole new way...

Wascally Wabbit

perhaps you could tell him that it's the alcoholism you are trying to get away from.