How Long is Long Enough?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Dixie
Posts: 612
How Long is Long Enough?
I am usually posting on the FFA forum, but a situation at work has lead me to this group for some answers. I need advice.
We have a divorced client who fell into some trouble with meth in 2005 (I don't know how long she was using). One thing lead to another, and she lost custody of her small child. She voluntarily completed a 28-day inpatient treatment program, attends some kind of Christian 12-step program and makes herself available for random drug testing (usually 4 times a year, or whenever the ex-husband decides). All of her drug tests have been negative for more than two years.
She has only had supervised visitation with her daughter since completing her 28-day inpatient program in 2005. She must visit her child at the home of people the ex-husband has chosen. The supervisors are required to "call in" to him several times over the visitation weekend to let him know all is well and the child is fine. She spends the night at the supervisors' home so that she can be with the child.
She now wants to have unsupervised visitation with her child. After reviewing the circumstances of her case, I agree that her ex-husband really "needs a meeting." I think he is obsessively controlling. I won't go into all the details about this, however, as this is not the issue. Let's just say, he is in complete control of how and when she is allowed to see her child. He does not even allow telephone contact. It really is sad. It is our job to try and change that.
My question is this... she's been clean and respectable for more than two years. She has no association with anything, or anyone, from her past. She is willing to continue random drug testing to prove to her ex-husband that she is (and plans to) stay clean. She just wants to share a life with her daughter. She agrees that he should retain the physical custody, because she believes he can better provide for the child (she has real self-esteem issues). So how long is long enough? Is two years clean long enough when we are talking about such a serious drug?
She is my client, and as such, I am duty bound to go to bat for her.
We have a divorced client who fell into some trouble with meth in 2005 (I don't know how long she was using). One thing lead to another, and she lost custody of her small child. She voluntarily completed a 28-day inpatient treatment program, attends some kind of Christian 12-step program and makes herself available for random drug testing (usually 4 times a year, or whenever the ex-husband decides). All of her drug tests have been negative for more than two years.
She has only had supervised visitation with her daughter since completing her 28-day inpatient program in 2005. She must visit her child at the home of people the ex-husband has chosen. The supervisors are required to "call in" to him several times over the visitation weekend to let him know all is well and the child is fine. She spends the night at the supervisors' home so that she can be with the child.
She now wants to have unsupervised visitation with her child. After reviewing the circumstances of her case, I agree that her ex-husband really "needs a meeting." I think he is obsessively controlling. I won't go into all the details about this, however, as this is not the issue. Let's just say, he is in complete control of how and when she is allowed to see her child. He does not even allow telephone contact. It really is sad. It is our job to try and change that.
My question is this... she's been clean and respectable for more than two years. She has no association with anything, or anyone, from her past. She is willing to continue random drug testing to prove to her ex-husband that she is (and plans to) stay clean. She just wants to share a life with her daughter. She agrees that he should retain the physical custody, because she believes he can better provide for the child (she has real self-esteem issues). So how long is long enough? Is two years clean long enough when we are talking about such a serious drug?
She is my client, and as such, I am duty bound to go to bat for her.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 3,335
The way you are describing things, it sounds like she is in a good place in her recovery. Why wouldn't it be enough? What are your concerns? The possibility of relapse is always there for ANY recovering addict. But that doesn't mean they need supervised visits with their kids for the rest of their lives. Isn't she your client? Does that mean you are supposed to be on her side? You've seen her. You know whether or not she's clean and committed to staying clean. I think your going to have to use your best judgement. Trust your gut.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 2,391
You cannot force him into a meeting IMHO. We can never know the full effects (as alcoholics/addicts) on our loved ones. Just because I work a program of recovery Al-anon, NA and AA doesn't mean that anyone should trust me until they are ready.
Go to bat for her. Stay involved in her case, her recovery etc. He will get help when he is ready. If she works her program she will slowly come to understand (if she doesn't already) that she can only change herself and not anyone else.
I wish you the best.
Go to bat for her. Stay involved in her case, her recovery etc. He will get help when he is ready. If she works her program she will slowly come to understand (if she doesn't already) that she can only change herself and not anyone else.
I wish you the best.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 325
Hey Hope2bhappy,
This is a very passionate subject to me.
It's far more complicated than it appears. To me it has nothing to do with the amount of time she has. For that matter- a clean ua really means nothing. Most addicts know how to pass those- I would prefer to see a hair follicle test which are more difficult to pass.
But it really isn't just all about the drug. As you said your client has self-esteem issues. Children are great at boosting others self-esteem. My question is what can your client DO for her child?
Sorry but I get sick and tired of parents who expect- their parental rights- yet they expect nothing of themselves- no responsibility.
How do you know this? What is clean and respectable? Does she have a full time job that supports her? Does she help to support her child? Does she have a safe home? Transportation? A valid drivers license and insurance? Where would these unsupervised visits occur? If her child were to get sick or injured is she responsible and capable?
There is a lot more to parenting and being a mother- then spending a day here or there with a child. Responsible babysitters- children, take classes on it!! Your client may have been working on her health- some kind of a 12 step group- there are also parenting classes one can take if one REALLY finds their child to be that important to them.
I'm sorry happy- I took great offense to this statement:
It is all of our duty- to the children to go to bat for them.
If you believe that this woman is so respectable- trustworthy and good. Forget handing her your child to take care of for the day or night- try handing her one of your credit cards or your jewelry the next time you meet with her. If you are worried about trusting her with that possession. Please don't judge that childs father. It may not be about "controlling" it may be about caring for his child.
Meth. - no one falls into meth.. They chose to use it. It is not like alcohol, there is no confusion regarding it. It is a very dangerous and illegal drug, it is addictive by it's chemical nature, not the nature or dna of the person who uses it. There is no "accident" here. It is never protrayed as good or fun. The people who use it, frequently do much more- than use the drug. Disease- hepatitis and aids are high among illegal drug users. Has your client been checked? Does she have a clean bill of health? Would she be responsible with her child if she had one of those contagious diseases?
Sorry- but those are just some of the questions I have. It isn't about just clean time. It isn't about the parents either. It is about that child. What is GOOD for her!!
As a "single"- really "only" parent. I can tell you- there is nothing I would like more than for my children's father to be sober and healthy- for them to have one! Even selfishly- 24x7x365 is not easy. I could use the break!! But I am raising my son's to be men, fathers themselves. Their father is not good for them in any way. If they believed that parenting and being a parent was a day a month or even a week. Well and so the cycle continues on and on to the next generation.
I'm sorry- as I said this is a very passionate and emotional subject for me.
My ex had many periods of "sobriety"- not really- but dang I believed those ua's!!
This is a very passionate subject to me.
It's far more complicated than it appears. To me it has nothing to do with the amount of time she has. For that matter- a clean ua really means nothing. Most addicts know how to pass those- I would prefer to see a hair follicle test which are more difficult to pass.
But it really isn't just all about the drug. As you said your client has self-esteem issues. Children are great at boosting others self-esteem. My question is what can your client DO for her child?
Sorry but I get sick and tired of parents who expect- their parental rights- yet they expect nothing of themselves- no responsibility.
she's been clean and respectable for more than two years. She has no association with anything, or anyone, from her past.
There is a lot more to parenting and being a mother- then spending a day here or there with a child. Responsible babysitters- children, take classes on it!! Your client may have been working on her health- some kind of a 12 step group- there are also parenting classes one can take if one REALLY finds their child to be that important to them.
I'm sorry happy- I took great offense to this statement:
She is my client, and as such, I am duty bound to go to bat for her.
If you believe that this woman is so respectable- trustworthy and good. Forget handing her your child to take care of for the day or night- try handing her one of your credit cards or your jewelry the next time you meet with her. If you are worried about trusting her with that possession. Please don't judge that childs father. It may not be about "controlling" it may be about caring for his child.
Meth. - no one falls into meth.. They chose to use it. It is not like alcohol, there is no confusion regarding it. It is a very dangerous and illegal drug, it is addictive by it's chemical nature, not the nature or dna of the person who uses it. There is no "accident" here. It is never protrayed as good or fun. The people who use it, frequently do much more- than use the drug. Disease- hepatitis and aids are high among illegal drug users. Has your client been checked? Does she have a clean bill of health? Would she be responsible with her child if she had one of those contagious diseases?
Sorry- but those are just some of the questions I have. It isn't about just clean time. It isn't about the parents either. It is about that child. What is GOOD for her!!
As a "single"- really "only" parent. I can tell you- there is nothing I would like more than for my children's father to be sober and healthy- for them to have one! Even selfishly- 24x7x365 is not easy. I could use the break!! But I am raising my son's to be men, fathers themselves. Their father is not good for them in any way. If they believed that parenting and being a parent was a day a month or even a week. Well and so the cycle continues on and on to the next generation.
I'm sorry- as I said this is a very passionate and emotional subject for me.
My ex had many periods of "sobriety"- not really- but dang I believed those ua's!!
Jujubee Queen
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Charlotte, Florida
Posts: 3,582
IMO, if she had been sober and living a life dedicated to recovery, I would think ONE year would have been long enough, unless there were other issues involved such as, some sort of child endangering, or abuse.
Yes, please fight for her. It's hard enough for our addicts to maintain sobriety, but when no one gives them a break, it's maddening.
Good for you, for caring.
Yes, please fight for her. It's hard enough for our addicts to maintain sobriety, but when no one gives them a break, it's maddening.
Good for you, for caring.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 2,391
I really love when someone who has experience with a particular substance and the users of it come on because they can give real life experience. General recovery I know a little about but I've only met a few methamphetamine addicts.
Thank you so much StillLearning.
Thank you so much StillLearning.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Dixie
Posts: 612
Thank you for your responses. I am no stranger to addiction to alcohol, but have had no dealings with drug addictions. I am completely ignorant on this topic, so I welcome your feedback and teaching.
StillLearning... Your response sounded like an attack. It's not as though I have a choice. If I am hired (or appointed) to do a job, then I have to do it to the best of my ability, regardless of my personal feelings on the subject. Every human being is entitled to legal counsel and representation. If we were to do less, then we would be in violation of our oath. This is why I am "duty bound to go to bat for her." It's my job.
The drug testing has been hair follicle. For the first year, it was both urinalysis and follicle. Now the ex only requires follicle testing, at her expense, randomly about six times a year. He contacts her and gives her 48 hours to be tested and submit her results to him.
She is gainfully employed, she pays child support, rents an apartment, has a car, insurance, has never been arrested and has no traffic violations, her hair, teeth and physical appearance look good. But how the hell do I know what she does in the privacy of her own home? How do I know if she would now be a responsible parent? How would any of us know? And because we don't know, we continue to deny her that privilege... just in case?
I've been a codependent and the spouse of an alcoholic long enough to recognize that the ex-husband has gone overboard and is, in fact, controlling. And I stand by that assessment. I was being sarcastically descriptive when I said he "needed a meeting." I have no doubt, however, that he is concerned about the safety and well-being of the child. But I'm not convinced that his attitude doesn't have more to do with punishing the mother.
She's had two clean years. She's got a 9 year old daughter. This child isn't getting any younger, and this is time they will never get back. She wants the opportunity to share times with her daughter... take her to Disney World... whatever. Because her visits are supervised at the same location every time, she does not have that. She wants to enjoy a Christmas or two with her child at her parents' home. She wants to see her face on Christmas morning. She wants to do things all mothers want to do with their daughters.
As I said, I know nothing about meth. You mention it, and people shake their heads and say how very bad it is... as if this is the one drug no one will ever be able to leave behind. Is two years a good show of faith? Or (with a drug like meth) is six years more in line? I simply don't know. Those of us with loved ones in recovery are taught to trust actions, not words. Are two years of actions not enough?
StillLearning... Your response sounded like an attack. It's not as though I have a choice. If I am hired (or appointed) to do a job, then I have to do it to the best of my ability, regardless of my personal feelings on the subject. Every human being is entitled to legal counsel and representation. If we were to do less, then we would be in violation of our oath. This is why I am "duty bound to go to bat for her." It's my job.
The drug testing has been hair follicle. For the first year, it was both urinalysis and follicle. Now the ex only requires follicle testing, at her expense, randomly about six times a year. He contacts her and gives her 48 hours to be tested and submit her results to him.
She is gainfully employed, she pays child support, rents an apartment, has a car, insurance, has never been arrested and has no traffic violations, her hair, teeth and physical appearance look good. But how the hell do I know what she does in the privacy of her own home? How do I know if she would now be a responsible parent? How would any of us know? And because we don't know, we continue to deny her that privilege... just in case?
I've been a codependent and the spouse of an alcoholic long enough to recognize that the ex-husband has gone overboard and is, in fact, controlling. And I stand by that assessment. I was being sarcastically descriptive when I said he "needed a meeting." I have no doubt, however, that he is concerned about the safety and well-being of the child. But I'm not convinced that his attitude doesn't have more to do with punishing the mother.
She's had two clean years. She's got a 9 year old daughter. This child isn't getting any younger, and this is time they will never get back. She wants the opportunity to share times with her daughter... take her to Disney World... whatever. Because her visits are supervised at the same location every time, she does not have that. She wants to enjoy a Christmas or two with her child at her parents' home. She wants to see her face on Christmas morning. She wants to do things all mothers want to do with their daughters.
As I said, I know nothing about meth. You mention it, and people shake their heads and say how very bad it is... as if this is the one drug no one will ever be able to leave behind. Is two years a good show of faith? Or (with a drug like meth) is six years more in line? I simply don't know. Those of us with loved ones in recovery are taught to trust actions, not words. Are two years of actions not enough?
Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: a better place
Posts: 4,047
I do not know recovering meth addicts in the noncyber world, but I do know the ones I see here. And I know that their actions show their commitment to recovery. They also really help folks here to understand more about addiction so they can learn compassion and see real hope that if an addict chooses recovery, their life can be one of happiness and great reward, not stigma for life.
Personally, I believe your description is one of a parent who does care, who wants to be involved, who made a poor choice and suffered the consequences and now is trying to rebuild her life. I can certainly understand wanting the best interest of the child...that's what it is all about at the end of the day. I guess it is difficult to say how much of the ex's actions are based on fear and how much on a need to control, but it does seem to me that 2 years of an active recovery program and actions demonstrating that her words are true, is enough to make a request for a new evaluation of custody.
Thank you for your interest in both your client and her child. Thank you for caring.
Personally, I believe your description is one of a parent who does care, who wants to be involved, who made a poor choice and suffered the consequences and now is trying to rebuild her life. I can certainly understand wanting the best interest of the child...that's what it is all about at the end of the day. I guess it is difficult to say how much of the ex's actions are based on fear and how much on a need to control, but it does seem to me that 2 years of an active recovery program and actions demonstrating that her words are true, is enough to make a request for a new evaluation of custody.
Thank you for your interest in both your client and her child. Thank you for caring.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 325
I apologize. I wish I could communicate better in writing. I wish you could hear the tone in my voice and see my eyes. It’s frustration, my own personal frustration.
You know the thing I loved most about my husband was his love of his children. To watch him with his sons. The hardest part for this whole thing for me has been watching their bond- that relationship and love and trust they had for each other destroyed.
I understand in a way the position attorneys can be in. My judge looked at me at the last hearing and he said he was sorry that was all he could do, it is the law.
It’s been just one big mess!
Anyway, I am not just relieved, I am HAPPY to hear that your client sounds like she is truly in recovery. That she does hair follicle tests (not the norm in this state- I am unusual here!) That her lifestyle- the actions are there!! A job, home, license, actually pays child support, etc..
I love the success stories!! It gives me hope. On a selfish level, I can only admit this on an anonymous message board- or those that love my children and myself may have me committed! I have to have hope- the possibility that someday my son’s father will get into recovery.
I’m sorry, I guess there are parents out their with different agenda’s. No different than the ex’s of “normies.” That use the kids to hurt each other. Honestly I just don’t meet many of them here on these message boards or in alanon. We tend to error the other way.
Lastly I want to thank you, I don’t believe you are the “norm” when it comes to those who are involved in this. At least the one’s that I have encountered. Most don’t even think to ask how long he’s had that big VP job ( never lasts more than 3 pay checks) or if he has a license or for that matter a bank account or credit card or heck felonys!!
Six years ago, I would not have been any different than them. I thought everyone who drove had a license or went to jail. I also thought if you had a warrant for your arrest in another county or state, you went to jail! Wow- talk about a crash course on the real world!
Thanks for being honest with me- and again my apologies.
You know the thing I loved most about my husband was his love of his children. To watch him with his sons. The hardest part for this whole thing for me has been watching their bond- that relationship and love and trust they had for each other destroyed.
I understand in a way the position attorneys can be in. My judge looked at me at the last hearing and he said he was sorry that was all he could do, it is the law.
It’s been just one big mess!
Anyway, I am not just relieved, I am HAPPY to hear that your client sounds like she is truly in recovery. That she does hair follicle tests (not the norm in this state- I am unusual here!) That her lifestyle- the actions are there!! A job, home, license, actually pays child support, etc..
I love the success stories!! It gives me hope. On a selfish level, I can only admit this on an anonymous message board- or those that love my children and myself may have me committed! I have to have hope- the possibility that someday my son’s father will get into recovery.
I’m sorry, I guess there are parents out their with different agenda’s. No different than the ex’s of “normies.” That use the kids to hurt each other. Honestly I just don’t meet many of them here on these message boards or in alanon. We tend to error the other way.
Lastly I want to thank you, I don’t believe you are the “norm” when it comes to those who are involved in this. At least the one’s that I have encountered. Most don’t even think to ask how long he’s had that big VP job ( never lasts more than 3 pay checks) or if he has a license or for that matter a bank account or credit card or heck felonys!!
Six years ago, I would not have been any different than them. I thought everyone who drove had a license or went to jail. I also thought if you had a warrant for your arrest in another county or state, you went to jail! Wow- talk about a crash course on the real world!
Thanks for being honest with me- and again my apologies.
the girl can't help it
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: splendraville
Posts: 5,599
I used to do meth and alcohol. I quit meth long before I ever had a child. 2 years is a pretty good long time to be clean IMO.
I agree that it sounds like the x-husband maybe holding on to some resentment. I hope you will keep fighting for this person. It sounds like she has done a lot to restore herself.
I think she needs encouragement to keep trying and showing up cause her kid will see that she does keep showing up and that she does care and I think that is very important.
I agree that it sounds like the x-husband maybe holding on to some resentment. I hope you will keep fighting for this person. It sounds like she has done a lot to restore herself.
I think she needs encouragement to keep trying and showing up cause her kid will see that she does keep showing up and that she does care and I think that is very important.
On a tear
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Volcano Country!
Posts: 3,221
My only concern was her "low self-esteem". I would wonder what sort of partners and friends she has in her life. Most of us with self-esteem issues have picked some pretty sorry partners and friends.
You might talk to her about her hobbies and activities she prefers in addition to work. Then ask to meet for coffee with her and a few of her friends that she hangs with. Watch the interactions. Perhaps that will help you decide.
I wish you the best.
You might talk to her about her hobbies and activities she prefers in addition to work. Then ask to meet for coffee with her and a few of her friends that she hangs with. Watch the interactions. Perhaps that will help you decide.
I wish you the best.
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