How do you know?

Old 02-25-2008, 12:42 PM
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Ser
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How do you know?

Hi all,

I wasn't sure whether I should go through the newbie section of SR first rather than jumping in here, but I could use some input, so I guess I'm just jumping in. I've been in counseling for about 2 months, and my therapist feels that my problems/situational depression can be boiled down to husband's drinking. I don't at all deny or excuse the fact that he drinks way too much, but yet in the reading that she's asked me to do, and in tooling around the internet in sites like this, he doesn't always fit all the usual parameters of an alcoholic. How do you come to the decision that it's beyond problem drinking, and that your spouse or other loved one is officially an alcoholic? I can't get past the seeming gray area here, maybe it's a cop out, but it almost seems like decisions would be easier for me if things were more clear-cut.

So husband has been an active drinker in all the time I've known him - we met in our 20s in a bar, go figure, but socializing at bars where there was live music was the thing to do at that age in that time. I've known for years that he drinks too much, but I guess I always thought/hoped that he would slow down to a more "responsible" level as we aged. I don't know exactly how much he drinks, but it is every day, and I'm guessing he's closer to two six packs a day than one. But he doesn't go out to drink, he doesn't pass out drunk on the front lawn, there are no physical messes because of his drinking that I clean up or try to control... We don't have highly emotional fights due to the drinking, there are no promises extracted that he'll stop, but there is also no escalation of drinking more and more, his weekend consumption is pretty close to weekday, and he is functional. I know lots of alcoholics manage to function and hold down jobs, etc, there are just a lot of usual descriptions that husband just doesn't fit. On the other hand, he falls asleep at the drop of a hat in front of the tv, but it doesn't seem to matter whether he's had 2 beers or 10, if he's tired, he'll fall asleep (his father, whom I would not guess to be an alcoholic, does this too). My main complaint over the years is that he's fairly absent from our relationship, and I pretty much removed myself as well to protect myself (yes, I'm reading Codependent No More), and there's just not much relationship left.

But how do I even begin to talk to him that the drinking is a problem when I can't point out specific harm it does to our relationship or to him? I appreciate any advice or thoughts! Ser
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Old 02-25-2008, 12:49 PM
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Welcome. Sorry you find yourself in this situation, but glad you found this forum.

Sounds a lot like my husband about 10 or so years ago. All those things you say aren't happening? Not yet. Alcoholism is progressive. It nearly always gets worse.

Now, whether or not he is an alcoholic, you have a problem with his drinking, right? So, regardless of what label you put on it, it is a problem. The question is not whether he is an alcoholic, it is what are you going to do about your problem? (Yes, I said your problem)

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Old 02-25-2008, 12:54 PM
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Welcome to SR Ser! I am sorry to hear you are struggling in your relationship. My advice to you hon, would be to figure out the what drinking does to you. How do you feel about it? If it is a problem to you....then it is a problem. I realize I just re-iterated what LaTee said...but this needs to be your focus. I began my search here asking for the definition as well...and I learned myself that it is up to me to make and changes and to evaluate what my hubby's drinking meant to me and our relationship. I also have children and did not want that type of environment for them any longer!

Hugs to you!
g
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Old 02-25-2008, 12:57 PM
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When I first joined this forum, I remember reading a post that was similar to yours. The poster questioned whether 12 beers a day was too much. I was reading the post out loud to my daughter and her response was:

"Is 12 pieces of cake too much? How about 12 glasses of soda? Twelve slices of pizza? Or even 12 glasses of water? Is that too much?"

When you look at it that way, the answer is easy. Twelve of anything is too much. Twelve beers is much more than casual drinking; it's evidence that a drinking problem probably exists.

Even if your husband doesn't think he has a drinking problem, the fact that you've joined this forum tells me that you have a problem with his drinking. When somebody else's drinking is causing you a problem, Alanon is the answer.

Welcome to the forum.
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Old 02-25-2008, 12:59 PM
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Ser,
My husband didn't fit the "typical" alcoholic mold. He didn't drink everyday, hell, he didn't even drink every month. And not everytime he drank was there a problem. Sometimes he would be a fun drunk, but sometimes he would be a mad drunk. I didn't think he was an alcoholic, because unlike his mother, he didn't drink everyday, it didn't affect his job, he didn't lose our house, he wasn't drinking at 8am etc. He was like my cousins, who would sometimes lose their temper when drinking -it's a guy thing...right?

Things went downhill quickly. He went from not drinking everyday, to hiding his daily drinking. It didn't help that his best friend is his boss, and while they would work, they would drink. After the **** hit the fan, I found out a lot more. Such as the time he drove home drunk in the company vehicle and made it through a RIDE program (!!!) , the time he came home and told the neighbour he was sick of his life and was just going to take off and never come back, how often he drank at work, how many times he would come home from work and have a beer so I wouldn't know he drove home drunk, etc.

I never thought it was affecting him or our relationship either...until the night he shoved me, ripped my jacket and broke my laptop. I was on this forum before that happened, and a lot of people said to be careful cause it can change so quickly...and all I could think was "They don't know my husband, or me....they don't know that he's really a great guy, they don't know that this is normal, what are they talking about!?" Then it happened.
In all honesty, my husband's drinking escalated within 2-4 months.
I still struggle with saying the words "My husband is an alcoholic". For some reason it makes me feel like a failure (Yes, I'm also reading Codependent No More).

You say "But how do I even begin to talk to him that the drinking is a problem when I can't point out specific harm it does to our relationship or to him? "

But you also say "My main complaint over the years is that he's fairly absent from our relationship, and I pretty much removed myself as well to protect myself (yes, I'm reading Codependent No More), and there's just not much relationship left. "

IMO That is specific harm to your relationship. Granted, I've learned that marriage isn't the fairytale ending I believed it would be, but I also know that there are happy marriages and that when we're married, we're entitled to a happy one.

Sorry if this seems a bit disjointed. I have a million thoughts in my head and my fingers just aren't typing fast enough to keep up with them. Good Luck!
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:02 PM
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also...drinking and the stress involved in living that type of lifestyle can create all types of physical and mental illnesses. I would say that depression would definately be one of them...as I have suffered the same.

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Old 02-25-2008, 01:09 PM
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Thanks for your responses guys, this really is a welcoming and intelligent forum! I agree, and I've seen that phrase before, that if it's a problem for me, it's a problem. I guess I'm not sure how to talk to him about the problem though. The part of my codependence that I'm currently stuck in is that I completely repress feelings, I don't really try to control him, because we rarely communicate about anything real. I don't have a lot of hope for the relationship, as I said there doesn't seem to be much left. But I feel like it's unfair of me to harbor these feelings and not be able to communicate any of them with him, and my therapist feels like there's nothing more she can do to help me until I'm "ready to make decisions". Blah, how does a person begin to feel strong enough to make the decisions you know you have to make? Does going to Alanon help with something like that, just finding yourself again and finding strength to move on?
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:26 PM
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Ser -

I searched and searched the internet for someone to tell me if my husband was an alcholic. I got so tired of the answer which is -- it doesn't matter if he is or not. If his drinking is causing problems for YOU, then it is a problem. Mine also would drink every day - 6, 8, 12 beers; whatever. I was absolutely making myself crazy keeping track of how much. Once we hit some magically quantity or frequency then someone would tell me he was an "alcoholic" and then I could confront him. I had basically checked out of the relationship, also. There was no relationship with the zombie that he had become. I did confront him finally, and he readily admitted he was drinking too much, that he would "cut down". Great, what a relief. Well, then he started hiding his drinking and lying about it. Then I KNEW FOR SURE there was a problem. I so much wanted someone to tell me what to do; to let me off the hook. But, I had to figure it out on my own. Alanon will help -- I waited far to long before I went. Everyone here is great -- you will hear things you may not want to hear, but it will all be honest and spoken from the heart.
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:38 PM
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Nowinsituation, thanks, that sounds so familiar to me! I know I have to confront my husband, and I imagine that it will go that same way, he'll talk about cutting down. I've got a therapy appointment tonight after work, and I really wanted to be able to tell her tonight that I've talked to him, but I get the feeling that the therapist doesn't feel like that will do much good anyway. It just feels like it's only fair of me to let him know what jeopardy our relationship is in, but the signs are seeming clearer and clearer to me. I just feel like such a coward and a failure that I can't talk to him about these things. And then there's the logistics of the situation that scare the crap out of me. How do you go about separating yourself from someone when you own a house together, the market absolutely stinks, and neither of you can afford to live in the house afterwards? I'm getting ahead of myself, but these are the places that my practical head always go when I think about the future...
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:39 PM
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For the alcoholic, drinking makes everything better....until it makes everything worse.

There might not be problems EVERY time he drinks, but EVERY time there IS a problem, drinking is involved.

Sounds like you are keeping your eyes open and becoming informed. Continue to do that and all of the answers that you need, will come. It takes every piece of the puzzle to get the total picture.....and sometimes that just takes time.
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ser View Post
It just feels like it's only fair of me to let him know what jeopardy our relationship is in, but the signs are seeming clearer and clearer to me. I just feel like such a coward and a failure that I can't talk to him about these things.
As I was going thru the same situation, I knew I had to tell him one last time that his drinking (and all the other stuff) was ruinging our marriage. I did it for me since, as I knew would be the case, he didn't listen or believe me. My leaving him came as a complete surprise to him since he had paid no attention to my words telling him it was coming.

Originally Posted by Ser View Post
How do you go about separating yourself from someone when you own a house together, the market absolutely stinks, and neither of you can afford to live in the house afterwards? I'm getting ahead of myself, but these are the places that my practical head always go when I think about the future...
I left my AH 7 months ago, knowing the house would have to go up for sale since I didn't want it, he's can't afford it (he's been unemployed for 2 1/2 yrs). It took until a couple of weeks ago to get the house listed since AH was still in denial as to just what reality was handing us. I will lose some equity since the house has dropped in value. But I don't really care. I am gaining release from the one thing that ties me to AH. I will gladly walk away with nothing from the house if it didn't mean wrecking my credit rating. I have learned that my peace of mind and developing a good, peaceful life is worth every so much more than any money.
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Old 02-25-2008, 03:19 PM
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Just a couple thoughts to consider:
Does your therapist know thoroughly how Al-Anon works? It may be time for a new therapist who can take you further.
Just be aware his drinking, or not, may have little to do with true inner change. The personality patterns that led him to drink are still there unless he does his own work on it.
You'll find much support and growth for yourself in Al-Anon and learn excellent communication skills with a good therapist.
Wishing you well....
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Old 02-25-2008, 06:08 PM
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I agree that once you confront him, he will first deny it, and then start hiding it. So you should be prepared for this. You have two choices... you can learn to accept it and stay in the marriage, or you can move on. But you will never, ever be able to fix it. He has to do this all by himself, and this could take years.

Hmmmm... I just noticed how negative this sounded. So, let me also add that I chose to stay in the marriage. It took my husband about 22 years to find sobriety. This kind of life is not for everyone.
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Old 02-25-2008, 06:56 PM
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Another option is to forego "confronting" or saying anything about it all, for now. Go to the main AlAnon website and see what's available in your area for group locations/dates/times. Make a commitment to go to at least 2 different groups over the next week or so, and see if one doesn't feel more "comfortable" than another. Then hang out with that group for a few more meetings and see what happens.

Glad you're here.
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Old 02-26-2008, 12:25 AM
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Red face

Well ser, et al -----

I guess it's time for me to put in my two cents worth.....my 'minority' opinion....lol

Yes, as many have stated....of course, you can check out alanon, but just remember.....you would be then absolutely resigning yourself to the fact that your husband IS an alcoholic.....and his being an alcoholic is a wedge in your relationship.....hmmmmmm

Let's take a wee bit closer look at something you wrote.....: "... My main complaint over the years is that he's fairly absent from our relationship, and I pretty much removed myself as well to protect myself (yes, I'm reading Codependent No More), and there's just not much relationship left..."

Regardless of his drinking habits....how much or how often...it seems more that your relationship is suffering from...........lack of connectivity.....it may have nothing to do with alcohol/alcoholism/alcoholic.

Perhaps it's time for the two of you to sit down.....and communicate (now, I'm not saying 'confronting' him....but just sit and talk ...... about your relationship, your life together. To me, and I hope I don't offend, what I see is that it's not his drinking, or even that he might be an alcoholic (there's not enough evidence to even give that a guess. He might be in the progression of alcoholism, but then again he might continue on with his alcohol consumption just as it is today....from here to eternity, with no adverse reactions.....which brings me to the crux of the problem......YOU [now, now, remember, I asked y'all plz not to take offense..... (o: ] The bottom line, as I see it is.......: like many others here have stated, you've got to do what is best for you....! He might NOT be an alcoholic, but his drinking is a problem to you. I'd just one last time like to reiterate ..... get into communication with him....but just try not to confront....nobody ( neither alcoholics nor non-alcoholics) does well with confrontation........ (o:


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Old 02-26-2008, 04:15 AM
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I agree with the others here that you need to work on yourself for yourself. I also understand that you may still want to understand what alcoholics are and how to identify them. I have copied these questions from the AA site for you. I once read these through myself and I could answer a lot of htem without my A's presence, some only he will know the answer to. Either way, it may help you understand, and in time it may be something you can present to him as you voice your concern.

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Twelve questions only you can answer

Copyright © 1973 by A.A. World Services, Inc.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IS A.A. FOR YOU?


We who are in A.A. came because we finally gave up trying to control our drinking. We still hated to admit that we could never drink safely. Then we heard from other A.A. members that we were sick. (We thought so for years!) We found out that many people suffered from the same feelings of guilt and loneliness and hopelessness that we did. We found out that we had these feelings because we had the disease of alcoholism.

We decided to try and face up to what alcohol had done to us. Here are some of the questions we tried to answer honestly. If we answered YES to four or more questions, we were in deep trouble with our drinking. See how you do. Remember, there is no disgrace in facing up to the fact that you have a problem.


Answer YES or NO to the following questions.

1 - Have you ever decided to stop drinking for a week or so, but only lasted for a couple of days?
Most of us in A.A. made all kinds of promises to ourselves and to our families. We could not keep them. Then we came to A.A. A.A. said: "Just try not to drink today." (If you do not drink today, you cannot get drunk today.)


Yes No
2 - Do you wish people would mind their own business about your drinking-- stop telling you what to do?
In A.A. we do not tell anyone to do anything. We just talk about our own drinking, the trouble we got into, and how we stopped. We will be glad to help you, if you want us to.


Yes No
3 - Have you ever switched from one kind of drink to another in the hope that this would keep you from getting drunk?
We tried all kinds of ways. We made our drinks weak. Or just drank beer. Or we did not drink cocktails. Or only drank on weekends. You name it, we tried it. But if we drank anything with alcohol in it, we usually got drunk eventually.


Yes No
4 - Have you had to have an eye-opener upon awakening during the past year?
Do you need a drink to get started, or to stop shaking? This is a pretty sure sign that you are not drinking "socially."


Yes No
5 - Do you envy people who can drink without getting into trouble?
At one time or another, most of us have wondered why we were not like most people, who really can take it or leave it.


Yes No
6 - Have you had problems connected with drinking during the past year?
Be honest! Doctors say that if you have a problem with alcohol and keep on drinking, it will get worse -- never better. Eventually, you will die, or end up in an institution for the rest of your life. The only hope is to stop drinking.


Yes No
7 - Has your drinking caused trouble at home?
Before we came into A.A., most of us said that it was the people or problems at home that made us drink. We could not see that our drinking just made everything worse. It never solved problems anywhere or anytime.


Yes No
8 - Do you ever try to get "extra" drinks at a party because you do not get enough?
Most of us used to have a "few" before we started out if we thought it was going to be that kind of party. And if drinks were not served fast enough, we would go some place else to get more.


Yes No
9 - Do you tell yourself you can stop drinking any time you want to, even though you keep getting drunk when you don't mean to?
Many of us kidded ourselves into thinking that we drank because we wanted to. After we came into A.A., we found out that once we started to drink, we couldn't stop.


Yes No
10 - Have you missed days of work or school because of drinking?
Many of us admit now that we "called in sick" lots of times when the truth was that we were hung-over or on a drunk.


Yes No
11 - Do you have "blackouts"?
A "blackout" is when we have been drinking hours or days which we cannot remember. When we came to A.A., we found out that this is a pretty sure sign of alcoholic drinking.


Yes No
12 - Have you ever felt that your life would be better if you did not drink?
Many of us started to drink because drinking made life seem better, at least for a while. By the time we got into A.A., we felt trapped. We were drinking to live and living to drink. We were sick and tired of being sick and tired.


Did you answer YES four or more times? If so, you are probably in trouble with alcohol. Why do we say this? Because thousands of people in A.A. have said so for many years. They found out the truth about themselves — the hard way.
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Old 02-27-2008, 06:33 AM
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NoelleR, those are valid points and questions, and I'll think about them. But I think I ought to give a little more context to my statement of the main problem is that he's absent from our relationship. I had been trying for years to talk to him about how distant he was, and that his choice to fall asleep on the couch in front of the TV and get up and go downstairs to read and drink when I went to bed was having a very negative affect on our relationship. I told him that I needed him to go to bed at the same time as me, at least some nights of the week, and all these conversations went nowhere and resulted in absolutely no change on his part. My two conclusions from years of trying to have better communication with him and letting him know what my needs are, either his need for alcohol is playing a big part in his decision to nap while I'm awake and drink and read in solitude late into the night, or he doesn't give a crap about our relationship or my needs. Either conclusion isn't very good at this point, but yes, there are weird ways in which he doesn't fit all the alcoholic characteristics to a "T", but it seems safe to me to say that anyone who drinks every day, even when they're sick, has some dependence on alcohol. And even if it isn't causing a lot of outward problems in his life, I do believe it has been a part of causing a wedge between us.

So perhaps I'll try to find some time to talk to him about some things this weekend, it's really hard to find time to talk to him when our evenings consist of watching the news, fixing and eating dinner, cleaning up, then he falls asleep on the couch till I go to bed. I do really appreciate everyone's encouragement and perspectives!
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Old 02-27-2008, 08:47 AM
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"Sounds like you are keeping your eyes open and becoming informed. Continue to do that and all of the answers that you need, will come. It takes every piece of the puzzle to get the total picture.....and sometimes that just takes time."---carolineb

carolineb said what I was going to say...

Welcome Ser! I hope you keep coming back here....everything you need will come in time...the important thing is you are aware and you are here asking questions.

Glad to see you...look forward to getting to know you. Take care of you.
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Old 02-27-2008, 10:28 AM
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Hey ser ----

I know I already responded to this, but I noticed something in your original posting that I missed the first time.....you said....:

"...I've been in counseling for about 2 months, and my therapist feels that my problems/situational depression can be boiled down to husband's drinking..."

Is your therapist saying that your problems/situational depression is 'caused' by your husband's drinking? If this is the case, I would suggest you find another therapist......

Your husband's drinking did NOT cause your problems. That would be like saying that your husband's drinking was caused by your problems/depression/actions.........NOPE in both cases.......

Your problems/situational depression may be caused by your 'reaction' to your husband's drinking.....and so, Alanon would be a good fit for you.....whether you choose to leave the relationship or not.....it would be very good for you....! (o: Just as your actions do/did not 'cause' your husband's drinking, your husband's drinking does/did not cause your problems....


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Old 02-27-2008, 12:26 PM
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Ser
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NoelleR, I'm sure I wasn't choosing my words carefully enough in my first post in trying to sum up my situation without writing the equivalent of a novel, but no, I didn't mean for the phrase "boiled down to" to equate "cause". And again, I'm sure I didn't speak carefully enough, but rather than my problems, I meant to refer to our problems, because the problems in the relationship with my husband are shared, and there are plenty enough that we can each own our part. Yes, my reaction to his drinking and isolation is my choice, though I doubt any of us truly "choose" to fall into depression, and I'm working in therapy to fix myself, not him.

And to answer you anvilhead, I don't necessarily think his response would be any different when I talk to him, but it's been a long long time since I've tried to talk to him about spending more time with me, because quite frankly I quit wanting to. I guess I meant that I need to bite the bullet and talk to him about the drinking problem of the equation, which I haven't done in a very long time, as this is kind of a new discovery through therapy for me, something I had probably been denying for a long time. I don't have a lot of hope for us having a happy ending on this, but I feel like it's only fair to him to let him know that this is becoming a dealbreaker for me.

Thanks again for the advice all, and the warm welcome Growing!
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